Rather than trying to defend Helen Thomas's remarks (which is a counter-productive waste of time), I think that a FAR better strategy would have been to dig up all the times that Israeli politicians and rabidly pro-Likud neocon pundits in the US have expressed support for expelling Arabs from Israel without anyone condemning them and point out the contradiction.
I agree and am awaiting your report back with some links.
Would you to care to explain how it is in the interest of the Palestinian cause to defend comments that all Israelis should be deported to Poland, Germany and the US?
Again, Thomas used neither the verb "deported," nor any other word that might indicate forced removal of anyone from Palestine.
Stop lying.
Why do you insist that that is what Helen Thomas had in mind, Stockholm? If one spoke to you of nuance, of subtletly and metaphor, of human frailty and sensitivity in the face of the clearly indoctrinated, would you still maintain the literalist stance of the poleaxed?
Yabbut, Stockholm's interpretation isn't even literal; it's phantasy - and it's repetitive. He's responding, as he so often does, to the turbanned hordes of his imagination.
She never even said the word jew in the clip. The Rabbi changed the subject from Israel to jew in the middle of her sentence. When people say that the Chinese should get out of Tibet and go back to China it is the same thing exactly. Or saying the Indonesians should leave East Timor.
It might not be a very pragmatic or a doable idea but I don't think a White House reporter would be vilified for saying the the Chinese should get out of Tibet. Her actual words were that Israel should get out of Palestine. Tibet and Israel are interesting situations given they are both colonial settler societies that have displaced the original inhabitants in the last 60 years or so. If reports are accurate they both rely on a strong military presence to enforce their new regimes.
So much for freedom of the press.
In any case, Thomas apologized for her comment, something we have NOT heard from the Israeli government and its apologists.
As Israel Kills and Maims, Outrage is Directed at Helen Thomas
by Alison Weir, June 10, 2010
Whenever Israel commits yet another atrocity, its defenders are quick to redirect public attention away from the grisly crime scene.
....
Thomas’s "outrageous" statementYet, the rage we see in the U.S. media is directed against none of this. People shot in the head, eyes and brain parts destroyed, the elderly beaten, small children and infants caused to suffer and die, parents to grieve – none of this has caused a hint of anger. In fact, most of it has been considered of too little importance even to report.
Instead, media reports are filled with outrage at "anti-Israel" words spoken by 89-year-old Helen Thomas.
In Thomas’s lifetime Israel has ethnically cleansed over a million people, replaced them with colonists from around the world, committed dozens of massacres, tortured thousands of people, killed and maimed untold numbers of children, mangled limbs, and committed outrages on women, old people, the weak, and the infirm.
It has assassinated people throughout the world, invaded numerous countries, spied on the U.S., killed and injured 200 American servicemen (the anniversary is this week), and tortured and imprisoned Americans. All while receiving more American money than any other country on earth....
http://original.antiwar.com/alison-weir/2010/06/09/as-israel-kills-and-m...
The equivalent of saying China should get out of Tibet or that Indonesia should get out of East Timor is that Israel should get out of the occupied territories (aka: Palestine). I have never heard anyone say the Chinese must get out of China or that the Indonesians must get out of Indonesia. If she had said that Israel must "get out" of the occupied territories and that all settlers there should either move to Israel proper or live as a minority under Palestinian rule - then I would agree with her. But she didn't say that, she said that "they" should go back to Germany or Poland. So, who was they? was it all Israelis (all 6 million of them) should be deported from Israel so that the pre-1948 diaspora can be recreated? was it just the Israelis in the occupied territories who should be barred from moving back to Israel behind the Green Line and instead be plunked in the middle of shtetls in Poland (where the Poles would probably lynch them all)?
In any case, Thomas apologized for her comment, something we have NOT heard from the Israeli government and its apologists.
I'm glad she did. What i don't understand is why after she admitted that she was wrong and apologized, some people are still trying to defend what she said in the first place?
It has to do with that whole "right to free speech" nonsense.
I said originally that I liked Thomas for saying this. This is not because I want to see anyone deported, but because someone, someone, finally had the guts to break from the herd and acknowledge the 800-lb gorilla that dares not speak its name.
That Thomas will likely spend the rest of her days under the spreading chestnut tree is unfortunate, but not unexpected.
Longfellow certainly would have understood her dilemma and meaning, AQ.
Even though she is now condemned to the role of smithy. But at 89, not so long...
In any case, Thomas apologized for her comment, something we have NOT heard from the Israeli government and its apologists.
I'm glad she did. What i don't understand is why after she admitted that she was wrong and apologized, some people are still trying to defend what she said in the first place?
First of all, she is constantly misquoted - by you and others here. No one has defended the misquotes.
Second, she is being defended against the frenzied charges of anti-semitism. She is no anti-semite. No one is defending the half-baked spontaneous responses based on leading questions that she gave. It's Thomas that is being defended - not her soundbite.
It's not even as if she wrote a story putting forward this thesis.
Thirdly, why is an 89-year-old journalist being attacked, when the monster that is Israel runs rampant in the seas, on land, in the political back rooms of Washington? What is wrong with this picture?
Hopefully that clears it up a little for you, Stock.
I said originally that I liked Thomas for saying this. This is not because I want to see anyone deported....
"Imported" rather than "deported". Thomas's suggestion that settlers RETURN included her own country, the US.
This is a very strange kind of "racism" that suggests that the supposed abhorred ethnicity should return as full citizens to the "racists" country.
edit:
(Now, if only Israel demonstrated the same alleged "racism" for the expelled Palestinians it would be a huge advance )
It has to do with that whole "right to free speech" nonsense.
I'm all for "free speech" no one is suggesting putting her in jail for making odious comments. She has the right to free speech in making an outrageous comment and her critics have a right to free speech in condemning her comments.
The equivalent of saying China should get out of Tibet or that Indonesia should get out of East Timor is that Israel should get out of the occupied territories (aka: Palestine). I have never heard anyone say the Chinese must get out of China or that the Indonesians must get out of Indonesia. If she had said that Israel must "get out" of the occupied territories and that all settlers there should either move to Israel proper or live as a minority under Palestinian rule - then I would agree with her. But she didn't say that, she said that "they" should go back to Germany or Poland. So, who was they? was it all Israelis (all 6 million of them) should be deported from Israel so that the pre-1948 diaspora can be recreated? was it just the Israelis in the occupied territories who should be barred from moving back to Israel behind the Green Line and instead be plunked in the middle of shtetls in Poland (where the Poles would probably lynch them all)?
Oh sorry I read Free Tibet and China Out of Tibet to mean expel Chinese. I guess it was much like you hearing the words expel or deport in Helen's words when she didn't say either.
I find it interesting that you differentiate between the occupied territories that you call Palestine and Israel proper. Have you drawn up the appropriate borders to determine what land belongs in your two state proposal?
Actually I think Thomas did the right thing in tendering her resignation, primarily because it is a matter between her and her employer, Hearst newspapers.
Like most of us she has every right to speak or write her opinion, but there are plenty of professions in which you don't have the freedom to say anything that is on your mind.
As a journalist she should have known better than to say something that was obviously going to be seen as reactionary without giving any context or clarification. And she is also experienced enough that she should not have let herself get baited, if that is what happened.
I think dissecting it and claiming a misquote or that it was not meant literally, or wondering whether she was talking about Jews or Israelis or this or that border line is just speculation.
She screwed up by making an unclear statement which left her open to all these interpretations. And I think it is significant that she did not try to backtrack or explain anything about her words except to apologize for them and to say that they didn't reflect her feelings about the Israel-Palestine situation. And she resigned.
It is a real shame, and in many ways unfair. Right wing commentors get away with expressing the same sentiments or a lot worse (sometimes with the support of their publishers or networks). There is certainly a double-standard and bias, though it doesn't absolve her responsibility for her own words.
I also think it is terrible that she came to the probable end of her long and historic career in such an unfair way. It is also unfortunate that she was one of the few people in the White House press gallery who challenged the status quo. On the other hand, at 89 she can't carry the responsibility herself forever, and shame on us if there is no one else to pick up the torch.
But even with these factors, I think she ultimately made the right professional decision. She's certainly not the first journalist who has quit over editorial or political differences. The bright side is that she can write and say whatever she wants now, and I would be surprised if she has written her last words. There are certainly enough people who want to hear what she has to say.
I'm all for "free speech" no one is suggesting putting her in jail for making odious comments.
You are aware she has lost her job over this, right?
She resigned in disgrace. people have the right to say disgraceful hateful things and public has the right to express outrage bring pressure to bear for them to be dismissed.
I'm sure if Anne Coulter or Rush Limbaugh lost their jobs over some of their more outrageous statements - no one would be shedding any nears about how there is no "freedom of speech" anymore.
The point is that Anne and Rush do not lose their jobs. I think that as an 89 year old it is impossible that she is as quick as she was when she was only 60. That is based completely on watching my parents generation age into their 80's and 90's.
Drive her out in disgrace at the end of a long and distinguished career and reduce her to being a Lebanese American reporter instead of just an American one. Serves her right for talking about Israel when asked instead of pulling out a prepared statement that was carefully crafted.
Do you think she should move back to Lebanon rather than squatting on land that belongs to First Nations?
I think she was born in the USA like all the other settlers. The biased news media thought it was appropriate to start calling her Lebanese at the end of a decades long career. Do you think the fact that her parents were born in Lebanon gives you a reason to highlight Lebanon in your question?
Since you are into morality questions. Do you think that people should be sent to concentration camps for being anti-Semitic? Do you think that Arabs should be resettled from Israel proper?
She resigned in disgrace. people have the right to say disgraceful hateful things and public has the right to express outrage bring pressure to bear for them to be dismissed.
I'm sure if Anne Coulter or Rush Limbaugh lost their jobs over some of their more outrageous statements - no one would be shedding any nears about how there is no "freedom of speech" anymore.
Since Limbaugh and Coulter are on the US Imperialist/Zionist side, we all know they won't be losing their jobs.
Here's your boy Rush in action:
[To an African American female caller]: "Take that bone out of your nose and call me back."
"We need segregated buses... This is Obama's America."
"You know who deserves a posthumous Medal of Honor? James Earl Ray. We miss you, James. Godspeed."
"I mean, let's face it, we didn't have slavery in this country for over 100 years because it was a bad thing. Quite the opposite: slavery built the South. I'm not saying we should bring it back; I'm just saying it had its merits. For one thing, the streets were safer after dark."
Rush Limbaugh on the Middle East: "Fine, just blow the place up. Just let these natural forces take place over there instead of trying to stop them."
I think she was born in the USA like all the other settlers. The biased news media thought it was appropriate to start calling her Lebanese at the end of a decades long career. Do you think the fact that her parents were born in Lebanon gives you a reason to highlight Lebanon in your question?
Since you are into morality questions. Do you think that people should be sent to concentration camps for being anti-Semitic? Do you think that Arabs should be resettled from Israel proper?
Lebanon is where her ancestors are from so i guess that is where she needs to be deported to when all "settlers" are expelled from the Americas and the land given back to the original inhabitants of the continent. If her ancestors were from Scotland i would be asking hether she should go back to Scotland. To me its irrelevant if she's of Lebanese descent or Welsh - the point is that she must be deported to the land of her ancestors if the Americas are to be given back to their rightful owners. Apparently she believes that every Isreali should be genetically screened to see where their ancestors last lived so that they can be deported to Germany, Poland the US, Morocco, Yemen, Ethiopia or wherever.
My voice is hardly needed here, and only tangentially related, but I think back to one of the first presentations I attended discussing Israel and Palestine - maybe 10 years ago. Two women from the International Women's Peace Service were speaking about their work in a village in the West Bank. Someone asked about "pushing the Jews into the sea." One of the women replied, "I think we will be hearing that as the last Palestinian is shoved into the desert."
You're arguing with the voices in your head again, Stockholm.
Exactly, Ripple. The Israelis are doing what they say they fear from the Arabs. Their greatest fear is that some day the Palestinians will be strong enough to treat Israelis as cruelly as they have treated Palestinians.
Israel's Political Occupation of the Obama Press Corps
http://www.countercurrents.org/ridley100610.htm
"Now had Helen Thomas blasted: 'Palestinians should get the hell out of Israel,' she would have been feted. But what do Washington scribes know? However, what they have proved by their swift action against Helen Thomas is that while Israel conducts a military operation in Palestine it is conducting a political occupation of the White House Press corps.."
Moral Failure of American Liberals: A Defense of Helen Thomas
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=16048
"Frauds. Mouthpieces. Dupes. Willing participants. Colluders. Conspirators. Traitors. That's what much of the press has become ovver the last ten years, but not Thomas. Never Thomas. Much of the outrage directed at Thomas today isn't based on her comments about Israel, but are, instead, a barbaric yelp from a pack of liars who are thrilled to see her gone as it means they no longer have to look at themselves in that mirror she held up.."
AIPAC: The Voice of America (2 videos)
http://www.countercurrents.org/lawson100610.htm
"There can be no doubt, at least as far as Middle East policy is concerned, that AIPAC is the Voice of America..A closer look at how the members of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee exercise a grotequely disproportionate amount of power over the foreign policy of the United Snakes.."
The point is that Anne and Rush do not lose their jobs.
They do actually. Rush Limbaugh was fired from Monday Night Football over some stupid comments he made about black quarterbacks in the NFL. Ann Coulter was dropped by several newspapers and magazines following an inflammatory column after 9/11 recommending converting Muslims to Christianity.
I don't feel particularly bad for them nor do I feel particularly bad for Thomas. Sometimes, words have consequences.
Coulter also called for Muslim leaders to be murdered. She should have been arrested.
It's no wonder that the stenographers of those in power should be 99.99% pro-Zionist. Their benefactors are 100% Zionist:
Tens of thousands of Israelis protested in the streets of Tel Aviv last weekend against their right-wing government's attack on an unarmed humanitarian aid flotilla sailing in international waters. International condemnation of the raids continued in foreign capitals. Meanwhile, in Washington, Democratic congressional leaders were lining up alongside their Republican colleagues to defend the Israeli assault. Countering the broad consensus of international legal scholars who recognize that the attack was in flagrant violation of international norms, prominent Democrats embraced the Orwellian notion that Israel's raid, which killed at least nine activists and wounded scores of others, was somehow an act of self-defense.
Democratic Party Defends Israeli Attack
Maybe in the name of fairness we should have a closer look at the Rabbi David Nesenoff and see if he's a credible source of fair minded journaism?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1pj5ZZwG7g (The Rabbi is the one pretending to be a Mexican.)
I know, I know, it's not fair to ignore what Thomas said by trying to change the focus on the what she said to the racism of the person who did the "reporting" .... it would only be a "fair" thing to do if it was chainging the focus on what Israel did to what Thomas said.
America believes in the concept of preemptive strike. It would be hypocritical to complain about Israel after America's murderous attacks on Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Sudan etc etc etc.
Besides for that, it seems that America likes the good cop role to try to get what they want out of the situation. Meanwhile they let Israel be the bad cop who beats up the prisoners who don't acquiesce in the American plan thus making the "perp" more likely to take a plea bargain that is not in their best interest.
"Good, cop, bad cop" is a police metaphor. Israel doesn't practice much policing in relation to their victims in the occupied territories. They shoot first and there are no questions. Simple, really. Israel uses soldiers for what should be police work. The reason for this is that Israel is not the least interested in protecting the population, policing the population that they occupy. What Isreal did in the Mediterranean Sea, what Israel does daily in the occupied territories, etc., are really War Crimes of a militarist regime, and not police matters at all.
Sorry for being so picky.
What do you call what Turkey does in Kurdistan? a love-in?
Start a thread; it's a worthwhile topic.
The US-Turk-Israeli alliance is something that isn't discussed enough around here. Come to think about it, the special relationship that the US has with Israel, Turkey and Saudi Arabia is seldom discussed anywhere, especially in the media.
Why is that?
CAuse it's not discussed in the MSM?
Indeed, why is it not? I would enjoy knowing the history of the relationship(s). Turkey is a very very interesting entity.
A Friendly Note to Many of Israel's Defenders
http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2010/06/friendly-note-to-many-of-is...
"From the sickeningly rancid, foully infected underbelly of the Outraged Furor! over Helen Thomas's violation of The Sacred Rules Concerning What is Permissable to Say About Israel there is one 'argument' offered by Israel's defenders that might be among my favorite debating tactics of receent years...
In their efforts to prove beyond all dispute that Thomas is a vicious anti-Semite who loathes every Jew who has ever lived and longs for the day when every single one of them is dead, these defenders of notably horrifying and murderous state terrorism gleefully spit out: 'it's just like saying: 'Hey all you Black Americans! Go back to Africa!' And we all know what it would mean if someone said THAT!..."
"Declassified files from a Senate investigation into Israeli-funded covert public relations and lobbying activity in the United States were released by the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) on July 23rd, 2010. The subpoenaed documents reveal Israel's clandestine programs for "cultivation of editors," the "stimulation and placement of suitable articles in the major consumer magazines" as well as U.S. reporting about sensitive subjects such as the Dimona nuclear weapons facility.
US Muslims are tying to convince their fellow citizens that they are humans too:
Sports isn't the only personal detail mentioned in the videos. Most border on the mundane, with participants talking about their home states, children, jobs, and occasionally, their ethnicity. The chosen specifics send the real message of the campaign: Muslims are just as ordinary as other Americans."The whole point is to normalize; we're not trying to sensationalize anything, we're trying to show the face of Muslims as it is," said Hassan Ahmad, 34, Rabiah Ahmed's husband and an immigration attorney who is helping organize the video campaign. "Muslims are like everyone else; we go crazy for March Madness and we like the Super Bowl and we like pizza."
See? Pizza! They've picked up on the Zionist tactic of mentioning pizza parlours to show the yanquis their shared culture.
Video campaign invites American Muslims to share their normalcy
Normalcy. Heh.
Israeli leaders consistently threaten Lebanon and the Palestinians with destruction and bombings, do you think a New York Times reporter would ever dare to describe Israeli hateful statements as "incendiary"? But you know what? I like this. I like that the New York Times does not even pretend to be a professional media organization anymore. It is all a joke.
Former White House correspondent Helen Thomas stands by the controversial remarks on Israel that led to her retirement.
"I told him exactly what I thought," she told Spears, who said during the interview that some accounts left off her reference to America. Thomas did not disagree.
"I was not talking about Auschwitz or anything else," she said.
"They distorted my remarks, which they obviously have to do for their own propaganda purposes, otherwise people might wonder why they continue to take Palestinian land," said Thomas. There was no explanation of whom "they" referred to.
When she soon began getting calls about her remark, "I said this is the end of my job."
Helen Thomas: You cannot criticize Israel in the U.S. and survive
Hasbara Drills Deep
http://www.allsources.cc/index.php?post=72
"Just yesterday, the Israeli tourism minister invited the saved Chilean miners to spend Christmas - navidad-in the holy land that is Israel. The Israeli hasbara is at world class levels I admit. They never miss an opportunity to secure a piece of someone else's cake..'
JERUSALEM - Now that's a lucky number.
For the second time in a month, Israel's biweekly national lottery produced the same winning combination: 13, 14, 26, 32, 33 and 36.
More Questions About Israeli Settler Attack on Al Quds Church
http://www.middleeastmonitor.org.uk/articles/middle-east/1709-more-quest...
"A group of extremist Israeli settlers attacked and set fire to an old Christian church in Jerusalem (AL Quds) on Friday night, 30th October. There has been no mention of the attack in any of the major western media outlets...
Why are we not surprised that Israel will not investigate the attack? Why are we not surprised that the attack has not been reported in any western media? Why are we not surprised that the international organizations dealing with violations of human rights have not condemned the attack?
Is it because this sort of thing happens all the time in occupied Palestine and we are used to it? Is it because we all know how Israel controls western media? Is it because we have grown too used to counting Palestinian losses...?"
'ADL Slams Shas Spiritual Leader
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/outraged-foxman-condemns-shas-they-were...
"ADL slams Shas spiritual leader Rabbi Ovadia Yosef for saying non Jews 'were born to serve Jews'
Goyim [non Jews] were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world - only to serve the people of Israel. In August, Yosef spaked controversy, when he called for Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to 'perish from the world' and said that Palestinians were 'evil, bitter enemies of Israel.'
Zionism Needs the Israeli Jews to Feel Frightened: Alan Hart
http://www.countercurrents.org/ziabari111110.htm
"The question arising is what will Zionism's in Israel leaders do when they conclude that with bombs and bullets and repressive measures of all kinds they cannot break the will of the occupied and oppressed Palestinians to continue their struggle?
My guess is that they will create a pretext to drive the Palestinians off the West Bank and into Jordan or whatever...It's because I truly fear that is the most likely scenario that I think the priority of the international community should be stopping the final ethnic cleansing of Palestine..."
Helen's fatal, and final, sin was, during a discussion of Iran's nuclear program during a press conference, to ask President Obama if anyone else in the Middle East -beside Iran - has nuclear weapons. Of course, he didn't answer the question, which probably explains why he joined the chorus of denouncers to drum Helen Thomas out of the White House press room. He simply didn't want the question coming up again at a future press conference.
But you can easily see the service Helen performed by asking that question. As the Zionists and the Israelis are working very hard to get our country into a war with Iran, there remains almost no voice in the press or in the Congress to call a halt to this madness.
Helen Thomas: You cannot criticize Israel in the U.S. and survive
She didn't just criticize Israel and the US...she said all the Jews in Israel should go back where they came from.
That a big distinction.
"Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine," she replied.
"Remember, these people are occupied and it's their land. It's not Germany, it's not Poland," she continued. Asked where they should go, she answered, "They should go home."
"Where's home?" Nesenoff asked.
"Poland, Germany and America and everywhere else," Thomas replied."
What's your point?
Don't bother with this one, al-Q. Just check their posting history. Or, translate their nickname from the Latin. Both are pretty good clues.
as has been posted by others:
"She said that "Jews should go back to where they came from", being Germany, Poland, America. My point was that the majority of Jewish people in the region will not move to these countries willingly, so the obvious outcome of this position is that they would have to be forcibly removed. I cannot believe her statement is being defended! "
Yeah, those Brooklyn pogroms have been well-documented.
It's no wonder that Hezbollah calls the IDF "dem bums."
