For the record, Libby rocks, and I will be writing to Jack to express my support of Ms. Davies.
As one of his constituents, so will I.
Libby Davies - forced to apologize - anti-Israel
Mon, 2010-06-14 23:24
#52
Mon, 2010-06-14 23:24
#53
And the federal government doesnt believe Palestinians have the right to exist. That doesnt seem to be a big deal.
Mon, 2010-06-14 23:25
#54
I'm ashamed of him, someone I've met numerous times and who I supported as leader and respected, for a while.
Layton rightfully defended the NDP's current policy regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And Libby agreed with him and said that she misspoke.
If people want NDP MP's to come out with positions that run counter to the NDP's current positions then they should advocate that the NDP membership change their current policies.
Mon, 2010-06-14 23:28
#55
And I'd like to know just what Mulcair was thinking, attacking one of his own caucus members like that, in such a sensationalist and right-wing media slant sort of way. I'd really like to know that. What's in it for him?
Mon, 2010-06-14 23:32
#56
If you watch the video, you see that when asked if she supports the BDS movement, she says at first that she hasn't gotten that far yet, and that she'd like there to be a space opened in our political discourse to talk about it.
I'd like to know just what's wrong with that.
Mulcair and Layton need to hear the same thing that Naomi Klein said during her speech at the Flotilla protest: You are on the wrong side of history. But it's not too late to change your mind and make it right.
Mon, 2010-06-14 23:37
#57
Actually I can tell you exactly what is "in it for him" - and you don't have to like it.
His riding has a large Orthodox Jewish community (about 12% of the riding) and Mulcair in the byelection and in the general elections seems to have at least held his own in that community. My suspicion is that he probably wants to get quoted in the news taking a really hardline on this in order to do some damage control in that community. Apparently Martin Cauchon was quite popular in the Hassidic community and now Mulcair is as well - and the last thing Mulcair needs is for the Hassidic vote (which often apparently votes one way en masse) to all desert him and vote for Cauchon.
For all I know, Mulcair might have even said to Libby privately "look, nothing personal, but I'm going to have to come down hard on you today because I need to do some damage control in my riding - I owe you one for this".
Mon, 2010-06-14 23:37
#58
I am getting pretty tired of Layton. It seems like winning election is more important than anything now for the NDP. Muclair used to be a Liberal, so no big suprise there. *sigh* I am so sick of federal politics.
Mon, 2010-06-14 23:39
#59
And the federal government doesnt believe Palestinians have the right to exist. That doesnt seem to be a big deal.
Is that actually true? Doesn't Canada still at least "officially" still support a two-state solution with one of the states being Palestine?
Mon, 2010-06-14 23:43
#60
And the federal government doesnt believe Palestinians have the right to exist. That doesnt seem to be a big deal.
Is that actually true? Doesn't Canada still at least "officially" still support a two-state solution with one of the states being Palestine?
Everyone and their mothers can say all they want about supporting a 2 states solution, its as meaningful as George W Bush saying he is pro peace.
Anyways, i stand by my words that the federal government is anti-Palestinians. The Harper government has no problem with them being murdered in cold blooded by the IDF. I hope thats clear enough.
Mon, 2010-06-14 23:49
#61
What's happening with Israeli apartheid is actually not an international matter. Israeli apartheid is an issue that is internal to Israeli government and legal system.
When it came to South African apartheid, our two old line party stooges often mouthed the words that they opposed South African apartheid. And it won them votes here in Canada.
But they never actually did anything about in on the international scene.
The NDP knows that Israeli apartheid is none of Canadian Parliament's concern. Not really. Some of us have indicated opposition to Uncle Sam's political interference in other countries, from the cold war era period through today. But how can we say that it's what anyone in Canadian government should do let alone the fourth political party in Ottawa? There is a fine line between promoting democracy and direct political interference in another country's internal affairs.
The NDP are not fake progressives like our two old line party toadies were when they feigned opposition to a US and Israeli backed apartheid regime in South Africa. The NDP are not wanting to score cheap votes in the same way. The NDP would not have my vote if I knew they were as fake and phony as our two old line parties have been when puffing up their chests and speaking out against situations which they should not have been commenting on anyway. How would our stooges appreciate it if another country's leaders were to speak publicly against the ongoing Canadian apartheid? This is cold war stuff, people. The NDP doesn't need it.
Mon, 2010-06-14 23:50
#62
Would you people please make an effort to spell Mulcair's name properly?
Me, I have no choice. I have to make sure I vote against him when I'm in that booth.
Mon, 2010-06-14 23:52
#63
And save the bathwater after discarding baby.
Mon, 2010-06-14 23:53
#64
I think Mulcair reacted like this because he doesn't want NDP MP's to be marginalized by the MSM.
But he could have done this without throwing Libby under the bus.
Mon, 2010-06-14 23:56
#65
Its very odd though - every poll I've seen says that about 15% of Canadians consider themselves to be pro-Israel, about 15% consider themselves to be pro-Palestinian and about about 60% are neutral or thing both sides should drop dead! - yet for some reason the MSM seems to parrot this line that unless you side with the 15% of the population who are pro-Israel - you are "out of the mainstream" and have to be marginalized
Its weird, even the Bloc Quebecois goes along with this mentality as you saw from how a BQ MP jumped in to condemn Libby as well and to reinterate the BQ's totally pro-Israel position - and its not as if the BQ has to worry about any of its core constituency being pro-Israel fanatics - I don't know too many "Christian Zionists" in Quebec who currently vote BQ and who threaten to drop them unless they take the pro-Likud line and while there is a small francophone Jewish community in Montreal - al most all of them live in supersafe Liberal seats like Mount Royal that the BQ can never win - so someone explain to me what's in it for the BQ!
Tue, 2010-06-15 00:02
#66
Personally I like the NDP's current policy position on Israel/Palestine. It seems fair and balanced.
If people are against the current policy, what do they suggest instead?
Tue, 2010-06-15 00:02
#67
Read [url=http://libbydavies.ca/news/update/2010/06/11/libbys-response-inflamatory...'s page[/url]. She allows every two-bit scum to post comments attacking her as an anti-semite and nazi and you name it. Just look at them.
Her letter of "apology" is quite shameful. It's incomprehensible, in fact. She should take a stand worth defending. She will never win the confidence of the Laytons and Mulcairs. How about understanding that simple fact and siding with her natural constituency - without apologies, without the kind of "diplomacy" that our enemies would never dream of using with her.
Tue, 2010-06-15 00:03
#68
Libby made it pretty clear in the video that she was discussing her personal point of view, not the NDP's.
Tue, 2010-06-15 00:16
#69
remind
Unionist I am spelling his name wrong on purpose, which I will continue to do.
for my own personal reasons.
....and no thanks on the lookin, I gave up picking my wounds long ago.
Tue, 2010-06-15 00:16
#70
remind
Unionist I am spelling his name wrong on purpose, which I will continue to do.
for my own personal reasons.
....and no thanks on the lookin, I gave up picking my wounds long ago.
Tue, 2010-06-15 00:18
#71
What can I say? Libby was more or less dead on.
This kind of internal culture is why I'm not in the NDP, where confronting power is an occasion for damage control, and the leadership consistently sides with power.
Is it just me, or does this also seem like a bit of a power play by Mulcair - maybe he wants the Deputy Leader job for himself? Maybe him and Layton are looking to push Libby out? Either that or Layton is just a bigger tool than I thought. I can't imagine it is the opening shot in a future leadership contest - I would hope that promoting yourself as the pro-Israel canadidate for NDP leader isn't a winning strategy.
I realize that foreign policy is low on a lot of people's priorities, but I think something is going to have to break at some point. Israel is rapidly losing public support after Lebanon, Gaza, and the flotilla, yet almost the entire political leadership in this country basically gets into giant pro-Israel dick-waving contests whenever things like this happen. But at some point, this has to start losing more support than it gains - especially on the left.
Tue, 2010-06-15 00:22
#72
Unionist I am spelling his name wrong on purpose, which I will continue to do.
That's cool, but what about the four other posters (FM, Life, JKR, and takeitslowly)?
Tue, 2010-06-15 00:30
#73
Unionist I am spelling his name wrong on purpose, which I will continue to do.
That's cool, but what about the four other posters (FM, Life, JKR, and takeitslowly)?
corrected
Tue, 2010-06-15 00:32
#74
..there's a new game afoot. it is different from the old game where world governments rallied around a 2 state solution that has not only failed but worked to increase the misery of the powerless. now there's BDS. this says that the world activists have taken on the issue and that they will not stop until the issues of human rights and illegal occupation are addressed. the ndp needs to acknowledge this lest they get lumped in with "the old line parties".
Tue, 2010-06-15 00:39
#75
Just general carelessness, my English is far from perfect.
Anyways, I think a lot of people would not identify themselves as pro Israel, but that doesn’t mean they don`t have unconscious (or conscious) bias against Arabs in favor of Jewish people. Its only natural since most Canadians share the more similar European background with Israeli than Palestinians. Similarly, people who do not consider themselves a homophobe often perpetuate heterosexism.
Not to mention Israel is an established state with alot of economic power, and people are less likely to offend a country of wealth and power over a dispossessed people and the negative connotations and associations protrayed by the mainstream media.
I know I am often scared of speaking up against the crimes of Israel because i could be branded as anti-semitic, Holocaust denier,and i can say goodbye to many economic and social opportunities.
If established politicians and journalists have to resign over comments against Israel, what chances do ordinary citizens and poor people like me to speak against great power without sacrificing the little that I have
Tue, 2010-06-15 00:40
#76
Well I still won't be a votin' Tory or Liberal, cuz they just suck too badly on WAY too many issues. And the best way to oppose the two same-same parties in phony-minority government is to vote NDP, and regardless of the NDP's election campaign plank for blowing up the planet.
Tue, 2010-06-15 00:40
#77
Libby's responded to the the controversy very well.
Libby's response to inflamatory editorial
June 11, 2010
Dear Editor,
I am writing in response to your June 11 editorial which refers to a video of me recorded last Saturday, and posted online (Hater's, Ottawa Citizen, June 11, 2010).
My reference to the year 1948 as the beginning of the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory was a serious and completely inadvertent error; I apologize for this and regret any confusion it has caused.
I have always supported a two-state solution to the on-going Israeli-Palestinian conflict and have never questioned Israel's right to exist and the Palestinian’s right to a viable state.
New Democrats have long called for a peaceful, negotiated end to the conflict where Israelis and Palestinians can live side by side with secure borders. This is a policy I fully support.
I reject the allegation that I hate Israel, and I reject the assertion that I said that Israel is illegitimate or an abomination. Neither are true.
Libby Davies
MP Vancouver East
Tue, 2010-06-15 00:45
#78
Of course I still perfer the NDP, but i think the party needs to be more in tune with the needs of urban poor. Anyways, the NDP doesnt need my vote even though I have always voted NDP, but voting for third or fourth party is a useless exercise for many people living in safe liberal or conservative ridings anyways.
Tue, 2010-06-15 01:01
#79
this says that the world activists have taken on the issue and that they will not stop until the issues of human rights and illegal occupation are addressed. the ndp needs to acknowledge this lest they get lumped in with "the old line parties".
Why is it, though, that when it comes to Afghanistan,and just as a point of reference for comparison, our in-house experts on democracy say that our vicious toadies in Ottawa should pull the troops out? Iows, they tell us that Ottawa is interfering to extremes in Afghanistan's democracy.
But THEN these same concerned people tend to want to tell us that Jack Layton has no right interfering in sovereign Afghan affairs. NOR does Jack Layton and the NDP have any right to suggest that Canada has an obligation to try to use international diplomacy to try and extricate tens of millions of Afghans from a US-led phony war, a phony colder war "on terror", that's been happenin' in Central Asia for the last 30 years and ongoing. And here is the reason they give:
...BECAUSE IT'S NONE OF CANADA'S BUSINESS!
And mEEEANwhile, back at babble rancho deluxe, these same people in the general vicinity of the NAFTA trade zone and memories of GST flippity-floppity after a 1993 federal election tell us that Jack Layton should speak out publicly on Israel's domestic, as in internal, political and legal affairs. Iows, they want Jack Layton to commit to political interference in another country's sovereign affairs!
They're hypocrites. On any given day it's hard to predict which side of their mouths they will speak from next.
Tue, 2010-06-15 01:05
#80
Layton has consistently rejected all calls to pull his caucus members out of the CPCCA. Now, he publicly attacks another caucus member for her courageous activism in support of the Palestinian people - under the pretext of some verbal slip. He then genuflects before the Israeli ambassador by way of apology.
Who's minding the store on the big issues, like exorbitant credit card fees and floor-crossing legislation? Why is Jack running around like a chicken with its head cut off on the issue of Israel?
Doesn't he understand that Israel is a matter of municipal jurisdiction, not federal?? The City of Toronto understands that.
Anyway, if Libby Davies capitulates (which is where she's being pushed and kicked to go), there's nothing left in that caucus.
Tue, 2010-06-15 01:12
#81
But where does Jack Layton say that the NDP supports anti-semitism or even Israeli apartheid?
Apparently he doesn't.
Tue, 2010-06-15 01:20
#82
this says that the world activists have taken on the issue and that they will not stop until the issues of human rights and illegal occupation are addressed. the ndp needs to acknowledge this lest they get lumped in with "the old line parties".Why is it, though, that when it comes to Afghanistan,and just as a point of reference for comparison, our in-house experts on democracy say that our vicious toadies in Ottawa should pull the troops out? Iows, they tell us that Ottawa is interfering to extremes in Afghanistan's democracy.
But THEN these same concerned people tend to want to tell us that Jack Layton has no right interfering in sovereign Afghan affairs. NOR does Jack Layton and the NDP have any right to suggest that Canada has an obligation to try to use international diplomacy to try and extricate tens of millions of Afghans from a US-led phony war, a phony colder war "on terror", that's been happenin' in Central Asia for the last 30 years and ongoing. And here is the reason they give:
...BECAUSE IT'S NONE OF CANADA'S BUSINESS!
And mEEEANwhile, back at babble rancho deluxe, these same people in the general vicinity of the NAFTA trade zone and memories of GST flippity-floppity after a 1993 federal election tell us that Jack Layton should speak out publicly on Israel's domestic, as in internal, political and legal affairs. Iows, they want Jack Layton to commit to political interference in another country's sovereign affairs!
They're hypocrites. On any given day it's hard to predict which side of their mouths they will speak from next.
..i pointed out that BDS was happening. analysis would take another thread or more.
Tue, 2010-06-15 01:24
#83
Who's minding the store on the big issues, like exorbitant credit card fees and floor-crossing legislation?
And with Canadians now up to their eyeballs with [url=http://www.ctv.ca/generic/generated/static/business/article1573478.html]... indebtedness[/url] on credit cards and other lines of credit to the tune of $1.4 trillion dollars, I'm glad someone is speaking up about this wicked-serious issue in Ottawa. Apparently real Canadian incomes have declined over the last 30 glorious years of Neoliberal ideology in our frozen Puerto Rico while corporate profits have gone only one way. It's a good thing for our token unions in Canada. Their members should get behind the Liberal Party a lot more often.
The floor crossing bill was introduced by the NDP several years ago. The two dirty old line parties love crossing the floor though as they realize they are two wings of the same Bay Street party at a fundamental level.
Tue, 2010-06-15 01:25
#84
Read [url=http://libbydavies.ca/news/update/2010/06/11/libbys-response-inflamatory...'s page[/url]. She allows every two-bit scum to post comments attacking her as an anti-semite and nazi and you name it. Just look at them.
Actually I consider that a mark of integrity on her part. Any public figure who is afraid to face the public - or even an organized hate campaign - should be in another line of work IMO.
Besides, if she started censoring for viewpoint it wouldn't take long before word would get around.
Tue, 2010-06-15 01:26
#85
I'm shocked by Mulcair's attack and Layton's flaccid acquiescence in it.
I'm shocked that you would be shocked. This is just another limp (C'mon, "flaccid"? With that 70s pornstar moustache?) anti-Palestinian reaction in a series of limp anti-Palestinian reactions by the Layton NDP.
Tue, 2010-06-15 01:28
#86
In twelve (12) posts in this thread, Fidel hasn't mentioned Libby Davies' name one single solitary time. To me, that shows hope. It shows he feels shame for what is being done to this courageous voice. I can't imagine what other explanation there would be.
Tue, 2010-06-15 01:39
#87
I apologize for being mesmerized by Unionist's anti-NDP side issue rhetoric as per usual. It's usually always an appetizing finger dish in addition to the main anorexic course, so I think some slack should be cut in that regard. I'll try to stay focused on this real issue of serious concern from now on.
Tue, 2010-06-15 01:51
#88
It is next to insanity and completely preposterous that an MP telling the simple truth THE TRUTH and a very restrained truth telling at that, should then be forced to 'recant'. AND DID SO! How many fucking times does one have to see the relentless and overwhelming 2+2 evidence in report after report , video after video, statistic after statistic, demonstration after demonstration of the barbarity of Zionist colonization and ethnic cleansing before it actually sinks into the grey matter that this is in fact really happening? AND OF COURSE IT WAS SINCE 1948!! - listen people- this is hardly a hidden history nor is it even in any kind of serious dispute - they drove out the Arabs and killed a whole lot that didn't leave fast enough to and they're clearly working on finishing the job with those who are left. If the NDP position is so unconscionably FALSE and mendacious as to insist that black is white and white is black with respect to Israel's Hannibal Lector liquidation policies and designs on Palestinian lives and lands THEN THAT MUST BE CHANGED! And NOW is the time to make that change. Libby Davies told the truth! That should be an absolute defence and an end of it. It is malevolent to still be defending via party policy such an evil thing as Israel is - how can this party possibly hope to attract anyone with a brain and a heart while still espousing such patent lying nonsense so removed from the actually occuring ongoing atrocious reality - this is what that monstrous cretin Avigdor Lieberman meant when he included Canada's opposition parties in his statements about Canada's support. "We don't have to explain anything to anyone" This country officially is close to Israel because it really does share the same sick settler state values, of which wilful blindness and denial of genocide are paramount - obviously or Libby Davies wouldn't now be back to telling NDP lies by retracting her previously stated truths. What a disgusting party and how truly close our two settler states stick together - like shit on an infested, infected blanket.
Tue, 2010-06-15 02:01
#89
dbl post space filler
Tue, 2010-06-15 02:09
#90
How many fucking ... Arabs and killed a whole lot that didn't leave fast enough to and they're clearly working on finishing the job with those who are left. If the NDP position is so unconscionably FALSE and mendacious as to insist that black is white and white is black with respect to Israel's Hannibal Lector liquidation policies and designs on Palestinian lives and lands THEN THAT MUST BE CHANGED!...
So when do we send in the troops? You make it sound like this is the only country in the world where Uncle Sam's proxies are violating basic human rights. And that wouldn't be true at all.
Israel isn't Hannibal Lector. Israel is Buffalo Bill.
Doctor Lecter lives next door TO YOU! And he's been orchestrating mass murder and the war on democracy for more than 50 years.
Tue, 2010-06-15 02:26
#91
I'm sure Libby is sorry, because she believes that it is necessary to be elected to be heard. All the comments, here, are from the unelected, and the audience is very, very small. It probably is beneficial for the old psyche to let loose. But the average masses are never going to hear the moral outrage...necessary as that is on a personal level. They'll just listen to the opinion they pick up in their local media. Steve understands that with his firm control over ALL Conservative thought
I'll never forget all the voices from the average masses turning away from New Democrats and going Liberal when Tommy objected to the War Measures Act. I began to re-evaluate my earlier dependency on the opinion of the masses at that time.
And when you go into your voting booth and vote against a New Democrat - any New Democrat, for any deviation from your own righteous position - do you advance your cause, or that of the Palestinian people ?
Tue, 2010-06-15 02:27
#92
It took me a minute to realize just how appropriate his horror story analogy really is.
Tue, 2010-06-15 02:40
#93
And when you go into your voting booth and vote against a New Democrat - any New Democrat, for any deviation from your own righteous position - do you advance your cause, or that of the Palestinian people ?
..i believe this to be an important question that goes to the heart of the matter. it deserves a thread of it's own with space for non defensive exchanges. imho
Tue, 2010-06-15 02:40
#94
I'm sure Libby is sorry, because she believes that it is necessary to be elected to be heard. All the comments, here, are from the unelected, and the audience is very, very small. It probably is beneficial for the old psyche to let loose. But the average masses are never going to hear the moral outrage...necessary as that is on a personal level. They'll just listen to the opinion they pick up in their local media. Steve understands that with his firm control over ALL Conservative thought
I'll never forget all the voices from the average masses turning away from New Democrats and going Liberal when Tommy objected to the War Measures Act. I began to re-evaluate my earlier dependency on the opinion of the masses at that time.
And when you go into your voting booth and vote against a New Democrat - any New Democrat, for any deviation from your own righteous position - do you advance your cause, or that of the Palestinian people ?
I'd prefer to be quoted in full, Fidel. Context is important...even around here.
Tue, 2010-06-15 02:41
#95
And when you go into your voting booth and vote against a New Democrat - any New Democrat, for any deviation from your own righteous position - do you advance your cause, or that of the Palestinian people ?
Well, George, as you know full well, a vote against the NDP will ultimately be a vote for bosom friends of Israeli apartheid in the two Bay Street parties. We are grown up enough to understand how Canada's obsolete electoral system works. And the part-time Senators never speak up on anything they don't have to unless it's an official half-day at work in the week of a full moon. I agree. How can we better understand the quirky logic on that one? These are progressives saying these things? Why don't they just out themselves and tell us that they support Uncle Sam's client state in the Middle East and everything it stands for? But attacking the fourth party in Ottawa for what have been Israel's crimes and Uncle Sam's for aiding and abetting Israel is a lot like saying they are concerned when they really are not.
Tue, 2010-06-15 02:44
#96
Yes, I sometimes forget that what is omitted is often construed as an opportunity to misinterpret in the extreme.
Tue, 2010-06-15 02:49
#97
I took the time to write to both Mulcair and my MP Comartin wtr to this. My emphasisi is how does one not stand up against a war crime, which attacking a boat in international waters is. They don't have to stand up and say that in the house, but at least allow us canadians the information to be allowed to BDS. It is our right to choose where and what we buy and invest in. But you need to know about it for it to happen.
I hope stock you are right and this is to secure HIS seat because it is pushing me away from helping the NDP if they can't take the moral ground on an issue like this. At what point does politicking go out the window for standing up for human rights. Twice in two weeks I have had to write my displeasure to the NDP. Afghanistan wishy washy, maybe we can stay, and now this.
I warned my MP about making me have to choose other options and lose my help on the campaign (and my donation which has been substantial) if the NDP continues on its present course of vote getting instead of standing up for what is morallly correct.
Tue, 2010-06-15 03:02
#98
NDPPIsrael isn't Hannibal Lector. Israel is Buffalo Bill.
Doctor Lecter lives next door TO YOU! And he's been orchestrating mass murder and the war on democracy for more than 50 years.
I am so going to relish sending this NDP story to every Palestinian support email I can lay my hands and every left-social democratic formation I can find worldwide. Wait till some of the Turkish labour socialists see this - we'll see if they think it's all ok. Jack's going to get a little more email from abroad very soon..
Tue, 2010-06-15 03:04
#99
NDPPIsrael isn't Hannibal Lector. Israel is Buffalo Bill.
Doctor Lecter lives next door TO YOU! And he's been orchestrating mass murder and the war on democracy for more than 50 years.
I am so going to relish sending this NDP story to every Palestinian support email I can lay my hands and every left-social democratic formation I can find worldwide. Wait till some of the Turkish labour socialists see this - we'll see if they think it's all ok. Jack's going to get a little more email from abroad very soon..
I'm sure they will see you for the sensitive fella you are.
Tue, 2010-06-15 03:29
#100
Joe Comartin is one of the brightest, most honest and forthright politicians extant. Threatening him on this issue would be a really morally insensitive thing for an outraged humanist to do. But then purists aren't about to try to see the best folks elected when their own egos can be brandished with such telling effect on the political outcome.
Tue, 2010-06-15 03:51
#101
Hopefully Muclair loses his seat, and I will be writing a letter to the NDP and Jack Layton over this BS.
In fact I will be visualizing the Liberals getting Muclair's seat......fucker.
I'm surprised to hear you say this, but I'm glad to see some people here are now beginning to see what type of a man Mulcair is.