Stand up for Libby Davies - part 2

It seems like there is a weird dialogue here where people writing things that are in response to what they imagine people saying as opposed to what they actually said. (Starting with some of the hysterical mis-characterizations of what Libby said in the first place). But the fact is NO ONE in the NDP is saying "Israel right or wrong" nor is there any demand for that (except maybe from the National Post and from the Israeli embassy). Similarly, Jack IS standing up for Libby Davies - after having her clarify her comments and reiterating that NDP policy is to support a two state solution and that Israel has a "right to exist" just like Palestime has a "right to exist".

Of course this whole issue invariably degenerates with peoples words getting twisted and suddenly you criticise some aspect of Israeli policy in Gaza and then suddenly you get faced with these "When did you stop beating your wife?-type" questions about whether you think Israel should cease to exist or whether you are anti-semite etc...

Conversely, words also get twisted to the point where saying "we recognize Israel's right to exist" gets twisted into meaning "Israel right or wrong" or that Israel's right to exist and Palestine's right to exist are somehow mutually exclusive.

Not trying to start a big 'thing' here, but...

NDPP, in the last thread (@ post #76 ) you made some bold claims based on polls. Could you pretty please provide some links to those polls so that we may judge those claims based on their merits.

Thanks Unionist. For the lesson and all.

Unionist wrote:

[url=http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/strong-israeli-support-for-netan... Israeli Support for Netanyahu, Ship Boarding and Gaza Blockade[/url]

Word of caution.  Pechter Middle East Polls is affiliated with the AIPAC-sponsored Washington Institute of Near East Policy.

http://sites.google.com/a/pechterpolls.org/pectherpolls/principals

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Institute_for_Near_East_Policy

Dawg's Blog

Quote:

 Stephen Harper and his fellow Liberals has called for punitive sanctionsagainst Davies. And Jack Layton has, absurdly, apologized to the Israeli ambassador.

For what? Again, Davies simply stated a fact. Yes, Jews have lived in the Middle East for millennia. Arabs too: Muslims since the seventh century. But the establishment of the state of Israel displaced large numbers of people from their ancestral lands. An inconvenient truth: but one that will have to be addressed if peace is to be achieved.

Yeah, Harper was really putting the pressure on today.  On one side we have Jack supporting the two state sollution and on the other side we have Harper supporting the final solution.

That video made it clear that Libby was having trouble remembering her dates.  Now that we know the trap, it is up to Naomi, Judes and the rest to avoid it even if they have to write dates on their hands.

Seems as if there is an attempt to go after politicians - not just Libby and not just in Canada - which means that there is a move to discredit those who are the most prominent faces.  Libby is a prominent face, which is why she was targeted. Got this from J-Street:

"Our goal with JStreetPAC is to prevent pro-Israel, pro-peace members of Congress from being intimidated for supporting efforts to achieve Middle East peace through a two-state solution."

"Jan Schakowsky is an American success story. Her parents immigrated to the United States from Russia as children at the beginning of the 20th century. Their parents were looking to escape oppression and build a new life for their family in the land of freedom and opportunity. She's brought a passion for social justice and human rights to her public life that reflects the deeply-held values instilled in her at home.

She represents the best of her community, yet to some, none of that matters. They want to silence Jan's voice in Congress because she's also not afraid to speak out for a rational, sensible Middle East policy.

She cares deeply about Israel, votes consistently to support it - and most importantly recognizes that its future as a Jewish, democratic home depends on achieving a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Now she's under attack for those views, and we have to step up and defend her. Together, we'll send a message that there is a new game in town when it comes to Israel and the Middle East."

RE:Note that one Conservative blogger on Twitter is now calling for someone to register the domain name "hezbolibby.com", and someone else is linking her partner to a "pro-Palestinian" website

The good news is that they don't think that rabble.ca, which Kim Elliott is associated with, is pro Palistinian enough.

Thanks for the article Stockholm.

RE: But she has not apologized for stating her personal support for the boycott, even though Mulcair said earlier this week that he believed she needed to clarify this point.

I think that she was fairly clear on this point in the letter on her webpage.

Stockholm, I don't think that this story is on its last legs because I've heard of a reporter being taken down and two politicians being pressured to step down in a little over a week.

The thing is that the flotilla incident has turned public opinion against Israel a bit - which explains the need for these attacks as a last ditch effort to justify Harper's position on the issue but also reduces his success on said issue.

vaudree wrote:

Stockholm, I don't think that this story is on its last legs because I've heard of a reporter being taken down and two politicians being pressured to step down in a little over a week.

I didn't mean that the entire issue of the Middle East was on its last legs - but I think that as far as Libby is concerned, the news cycle is just about over. There is the predictable denouement of trying to get her to comment etc...but ultimately, there is nothing more to be said, Harper and Rae put on their faux-outrage show of demanding that she be fired - knowing full well it would never happen. Layton has is talking points down pat - Parliament is adjourning tomorrow for three months - the story is D-E-D DEAD! I've seen enough of these tempests in a teapot to know when a story has "legs" and when (as in this case) it does not.

Unrelated to the turn that this discussion has taken, but I've written a letter of support on Libby Davies website (using my real name) so I won't post it here. I'm not sure if it's been posted yet or not, but in any case should I be in the same hood as her constituency office, during office hours, I'll try to pop by and give them a word of support too.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I've heard Libby speak on the struggle of the Palestine people and hers is a voice that needs to be heard not silenced.  I thought Jack was way too apologetic but if Libby keeps her job and influence within the caucus then the federal NDP will have passed a very difficult exam.

I'm not sure whether Libby's title as deputy leader helps her speak freely. As deputy leader she has to support the party line.  The NDP hasn't dealt with the issue of BDS so her ability to speak freely in support of it is limited.

In any case the NDP should decide what its policy is concerning a BDS of Israel and relating issues.

Unionist wrote:

From Stockholm's link:

Quote:

However, NDP foreign affairs critic Paul Dewar said he felt the issue is settled following the apology.

"The issue is about policy and who speaks for our party," said Dewar. "I think it's clear (to) Ms. Davies, now that she lets the critic and the leader speak on those."

So who is the NDP critic that speaks for the party?

Paul Dewar is the NDP critic on foreign affairs and he has actually one of the most anti-war in Afghanistan people in caucus. He has never "supported" Harper. Unionist - do you agree or disagree with Harper apologizing to First nations for what happened to them in residential schools?? I ask you because if you agree with apologizing then I ACCUSE YOU of SUPPORTING Stephen Harper (gavel thud!)

The Conservatives are making some crazy accusations.

Quote:

Vancouver Sun

Stephen Harper compares Vancouver MP Libby Davies to terrorist groups

OTTAWA — Prime Minister Stephen Harper stepped up the pressure on the NDP's Libby Davies to resign her position as her party's deputy leader on Wednesday, accusing her of making "extremist" statements about Israel that were similar to the language used by terrorist organizations.

"The deputy leader of the NDP knew full well what she was saying," Harper said during the daily question period in the House of Commons. "She made statements that could have been made by Hamas, Hezbollah or anybody else with no repercussions from that party whatsoever."

 

Well, there you go. Is Jack going to finally stand up on his hind legs and attack Harper for this crude and evil attack on one of his members? Harper is a terrorist and a racist.

Frustrated Mess wrote:

Well, there you go. Is Jack going to finally stand up on his hind legs and attack Harper for this crude and evil attack on one of his members? Harper is a terrorist and a racist.

Yes, FM.  But how would that language look "out there" disseminated among the average masses?  Perhaps you could find language for him that would not lose him too many votes in the upcoming elections?

Is David Katz related to Sam Katz, the present Mayor of Winnipeg?  If so, how much does he share the Mayor's views?

Libby seems the type to be more concerned with who is doing wrong to who now.  She is not the type to get herself into debates over whether the Hatfiends or McCoys started it.  For the last while, at least, Israel has been expanding their boundaries, kicking the inhabitants out and starving them.  As of late, they have been the ones committing most of the carnage.  There may have been a time when the Palestinians gave as good as they got, but that isn't recently.

I will add one thing on this issue that has nothing to do with the actual substance of the issue. I think that a lesson not just for Libby but for anyone in politics is that its probably never a good idea to agree to be interviewed in a public place by an unidentified unaccredited journalist holding a cell phone camera. If I were her and i was approached by anyone in that kind of context, I would give them my card and say call my office and we will arrange a formal interview in a quiet office. Its always dangerous to try to respond to questions in a crowded noisy public place where there is no opportunity to really choose your words carefully.

I realize that you have to try to be accessible to people etc...but it was pretty obvious that this was not some constituent asking for advice on applying for EI etc...it was getting into a full bore interview on a touchy subject where you really have to choose words carefully. I just think the whole incident is a cautionary tale for politcians in all parties and all issues. In this age of cell phone video cameras and being ambushed like this etc...it is something politicians have to be more cautious about than in the past.

Stockholm, agree with you and Ottawa Observer that politicians have to be more careful.

What you mentioned was Libby helping someone who is already unemployed apply for an existing government program - a person who is already hurting and needs help now.  Isn't that what is really behind Libby's support of the people of Gaza - that they are already hurting and need help now?  Just like the homeless in her own riding, wasn't she concerned that the rate of homelessness among Palestinians and about the soon to be homeless?

The questions that David Katz was asking had nothing to do with her reasons for being involved with this.

Libby's greatest strength is her greatest weakness - she doesn't give a shit about what David Katz considers to be so important.

"Politicians have to be more careful." vaudree? Let's frame that. Hope it's given some thought, hereabouts, where martyrdom seems the required stance.