I can think of better causes to donate my money to than to stroke the egos of people with delusions of grandeur who fancy themselves as some 21st century Canadian version of the Baader-Meinhof Gang.
Royal Bank firebombed in Ottawa - part 4
Sun, 2010-06-20 00:12
#102
Sun, 2010-06-20 00:13
#103
Freedom 55, why not take a moment and find out whether they proudly carried out this arson, or whether they vigorously deny it?
Good idea. I'll get my team of investigators on it at once. Yeesh.
What about you? Why don't YOU take a moment and find out whether they proudly carried out this arson, or whether they vigorously deny it?
Sun, 2010-06-20 00:16
#104
I can think of better causes to donate my money to than to stroke the egos of people with delusions of grandeur who fancy themselves as some 21st century Canadian version of the Baader-Meinhof Gang.
Me too, but I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread.
Sun, 2010-06-20 00:17
#105
Only a fair trial. Which is what activists in Ottawa are trying to ensure. Nothing more.
I don't want to be annoying - but if they plead guilty, there's no trial. If they plead not guilty, then of course they should be assured a fair trial. My question is: Do you support them regardless of whether they committed the act or not? It is very very hard to decipher from your posts. I think I've been rather clear on giving my opinion, but let me know if I haven't.
ETA: Ok, I just read your last post, and I'm suspending my interrogation of you. You don't want to answer a really simple question, you are under no obligation to do so. Carry on.
Sun, 2010-06-20 01:16
#106
Cueball
In response to Unionist's good sum-up in comment 36, to err with caution is to not support, and certainly not support carte blanche, which is the preference of some. Only the trial will bring out the facts. Whatever way the truth cuts, the act should be roundly condemned by all who care about putting forward real alternatives to what the g8/g20 represent...
Funny that is what Unionist said about the Michael Bryant trial.
Sun, 2010-06-20 01:38
#107
Cueball
I'll take the bait.
I do not assume that people are guilty just because the police and MSM say they are. So yes, if it's a choice between shunning someone who is charged with an offence, or standing by them to ensure they receive fair treatment from the legal system; I'll choose the latter, no matter the charge.
Again, it was an honest question, not meant to be baiting. You are ethically consistent - I can respect your stance (though not actually agree with supporting people who were found with boxes of bullets in their house. Jebus).
Well, one could ask do you equate banking institutions with medical health facilities that provide women with reproductive choice, ethically speaking?
Me? I don't. I don't really give a fuck about bank property. Sorry, to me this amounts to some petty and juvenile vanadalism. Probably some hopped up adventurists, or even provocateurs of some kind. But no, I do not think attacking the banking establishment is on the same moral plane as attacking a hospital.
One is a for profit enterprise aimed at exploiting people. An abortion clinic is a medical health facility providing and essential service to people.
If I kicked in the front of Toronto Sun newspaper box, would you put that on the same level as knocking out the headlights of an EMS vehicle?
Sun, 2010-06-20 08:26
#108
So it's also an obscure [b]"activist"[/b] group. That's what "activists" do, I guess... destroy capitalism one ATM at a time, then when that doesn't work, go after the whole branch. What next, one wonders?
It's a start at least. Alternately, activists can allow themselves to be corralled into designated protest zones, have a bit of a lark with all the chanting and song singing, wave a few placards in the air, and return to the comfort of their homes secure with the knowledge of having the police on hand to ensure no one in their group got out of hand. Similar to the early Union movement, where they should have just stayed home instead of knocking heads and fists with company thugs and state police at the gates of their workplaces. They didn't of course, which is why peaceful collective negotiation over benefits can take place today. Real activists in today's circumstances leave the tangible work of confronting the excesses of state corporatism to other people, mostly the poor and colonized, while benefiting from their struggles and blood. It's so uncouth after all, better to 'tsk tsk' at them from the comfort zones.
Sun, 2010-06-20 08:38
#109
Just curious, adharden -- doesn't your institution have any sort of privacy policy regarding students, what courses they have been enrolled in, etc.? I thought universities tended to be very strict about FIPPA guidelines and such when it comes to that sort of thing.
I'm not an expert on FIPPA, of course, but as a continuing education student myself, I'm not sure I'd want my professors divulging in a blog which courses I'd taken in university without my prior consent, nor would I want them to use their knowledge of me as a student in their classes to publicly psychologize me after the fact.
Sun, 2010-06-20 08:40
#110
I can think of better causes to donate my money to than to stroke the egos of people with delusions of grandeur who fancy themselves as some 21st century Canadian version of the Baader-Meinhof Gang.
Me too, but I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread.
It is in response to a call to raise money (lots of money - read the statement) for the three accused.
I don't really give a fuck about bank property.
It's so interesting to learn about people's architectural tastes. One tries to teach one's children about the injustices of the world, the struggles of people here and every, how resistance is justified, how protest and action are constant, how the collective matters... I guess we should have added to that,"Oh, and it's ok to take down the evil Twin Towers, as long as you're pretty sure no one is in there, but hey, if someone gets hurt, shit happens, it's the revolution y'know, and all the boring old-fashioned means have failed."
Same snarky comment applies to Slumberjack's dichotomy of (a) demonstrations in corraled areas; or (b) throwing rocks at ATMs and burning banks.
Do you actually suggest actions like these in the movements where you are active (I didn't think so - no need to answer), or do you just sit back and applaud when some fools throw their lives away by doing it on your behalf? Or does this make for clever keyboard arguments?
I know you never actually would propose or tolerate such actions IRL. Your posting histories make that clear. But rest assured that when we workers are in struggle, sometimes in serious and frustrating and dragged-out situations, some individuals come along and make proposals like these. We need to put them in their places in quite military fashion. We can't afford to have our struggle discredited and destroyed by doing things that workers hate.
Sun, 2010-06-20 08:44
#111
Just curious, adharden -- doesn't your institution have any sort of privacy policy regarding students, what courses they have been enrolled in, etc.? I thought universities tended to be very strict about FIPPA guidelines and such when it comes to that sort of thing.
I'm not an expert on FIPPA, of course, but as a continuing education student myself, I'm not sure I'd want my professors divulging in a blog which courses I'd taken in university without my prior consent, nor would I want them to use their knowledge of me as a student in their classes to publicly psychologize me after the fact.
Perhaps adharden is looking to be a witness for the prosecution.
Sun, 2010-06-20 08:46
#112
Maysie
Ok, 2 minute warning I will be closing this thread soon.
Anyone posting, please start a new thread.
120...119...118....
Sun, 2010-06-20 08:47
#113
Ok, I'll put this in the new thread.
Sun, 2010-06-20 08:49
#114
I can think of better causes to donate my money to than to stroke the egos of people with delusions of grandeur who fancy themselves as some 21st century Canadian version of the Baader-Meinhof Gang.
Like the Micheal Bryant and other rich guys deffense fund, no doubt.
Like Unionist I have no time for these dufuses. Firebombing a bank endangered the public, didn't do SFA to the bank, and as far as publicity goes, was a complete and utter backfire.
But here is what these guys will be up against:
The Crown will hide evidence during discovery.
The Crown will send the OPP out to spy on prospective jurists.
The Crown will not be "special" in the way Richard Peck was "special", though master of equivocation Chris Bentley may come up with a new deffinition of "special" which might include a prosecutor that pays homage to Mathew Hopkins.
And, when found guilty, the judge who ordinarily sentences guys who rape our sisters and our wives and our friends to a few days so they can get out and do it again and again, will bring the hammer down on these dufuses who scratched an institution.
Those who insisted so much that Micheal Bryant get a "fair trial" should be first in line with checkbook open here.
Sun, 2010-06-20 09:00
#115
We need to put them in their places in quite military fashion. We can't afford to have our struggle discredited and destroyed by doing things that workers hate.
The more extreme variations of labour struggle haven't happened for a long time, and there certainly is much to hate about the necessity, just as there is much to discredit. Quite military fashion you say....yes, that was and still is the default response from the state whenever people go against the grain.
Sun, 2010-06-20 09:06
#116
SJ, you should make a greater effort to distinguish between some lone anonymous bombers - the U.S. cartoon caricature of bomb-happy anarchists after WWI - and mass struggles of the oppressed. If you persist, I will actually start believing that you don't grasp the difference. Trust me, workers do grasp the difference. They shun one and embrace the other. And yes, on occasion, the line of distinction is blurry, and we debate and wrestle with questions of tactics. But burning banks? That's an easy one.
By the way, Tommy (re your last post in the last thread), I agree with you. So let's make a [b]sharp[/b] distinction between: (a) praise or condemn the burning of banks; vs. (b) state-organized miscarriages of justice and judicial persecution of activists. We can condemn the burning and support the judicial victims. But if they say "I did it" and want funds raised for them, tell them to go with out-stretched hands to those whose real interests they are serving - the shareholders and executives of the RBC and others of that ilk.
Sun, 2010-06-20 10:12
#117
Maysie
Closing, please continue in the new thread, here.
P.S. That was a bit more than 2 minutes, I realize. Oops.
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