Probably a continuation of and should be continued on many threads
Issues Pages:
Why we need to remember our support in our critical support of the NDP
Sun, 2010-06-20 17:21
#1
peterjcassidy
Why we need to remember our support in our critical support of the NDP
Sun, 2010-06-20 17:28
#2
peterjcassidy
Probably a continuation of and should be continued on many threads
The NDP is the party of labour, it is the party of the left, of the LGTBQ, of peace, of social justice and of socialism, For all of us who subscribe to such identities, we should support our party. the NDP while maintaining our right and duty to criticize the NDP. Worthy of discussion?
Sun, 2010-06-20 17:47
#3
Indeed, worthy of discussion. Though I'll have to add substantive content later...
Sun, 2010-06-20 17:57
#4
Cueball
I see no evidence that the NDP represents those communities in any special regard. The CAW has basically divorced itself from partisan association. This has been encouraged by forces in the NDP that have successfully been trying to divorce the NDP from labour unions for at least a decade. There does not seem to be any particular specific grass roots support for the NDP among the working class, or among Union members. All of the major parties have members who support gay rights, and Liberal members in particular were supportive by and large on the issue of gay marriage. The NDP has actively supported a Canadian military presence in Afghanistan, and indeed their FF critics have been very equivocal (Black.Dewar) on the issue of Canadian military intervention, despite a clear statement on policy which demands immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan without caveat. The NDP has increasingly been taking on the language of a right wing "tough on crime" agenda, and indeed supporting and pursuing this agenda actively in parliament -- this is not a "social justice" position. The NDP has not proposed any socialist policies at all in at least a decade, and instead groomed prominent "third way" neo-liberal business leaders as key candidates supported by the existing NDP leadership.
So. No. I disagree that there is really much evidence that any of what you have proposed is true, and in that light, I assert that the conclusion that there is any particular invocation to support the party on the grounds that it represents "us" or our ideals is false.
Sun, 2010-06-20 18:00
#5
I agree with all Cueball's observations, with sadness and regret. And I am astounded at the notion that any special duty is owed to the NDP by workers, LGBTQ, and the rest. In my humble view, the duty owed is in the reverse direction.
Sun, 2010-06-20 18:13
#6
I disagree with everything Cueball wrote about the NDP. But most importantly, it's a neoliberal regime in Canada since Trudeau and Mulroney. The NDP has opposed all of it every step of the way. And now the NDP are not supposed to provide any solutions whatsoever from within a provincial neoliberal framework anywhere in Canada, or they are deemed to be neoliberals themselves. It's a preposterous kind of logic, and the federal NDP has proposed raising federal tax revenues to replace what the federl Liberals removed from the social transfer since 1995. And that's not very Neoliberal of the NDP at all. So his whole argument against the NDP in this regard is not very well supported.
Sun, 2010-06-20 18:21
#7
Boom Boom
The NDP today is what the Liberals should be.
Sun, 2010-06-20 18:28
#8
Maybe the NDP got bamboozled by the likes of Tony Blair?
You would THINK that a party not for the rich would do well in Canada, where most of us are not rich...
Yet you get these groups of wealthy people who espouse leftist mores and then turn their target party into something more of their liking. Rich NDPs who inherited their wealth are going to be for dividend tax credits and no inheritance tax. Labour aristocracy in the public sector will go even further into neo-conservatism and neo-liberalism as their policy analysis would dictate. Not only that but they will support the law and order agenda which feeds the public sector even more (and keeps the Great Unwashed off their property)
Where are the true 'little guys' (and gals) these days? Pissed off about 1 billion for the G20? Pissed off about criminals getting pardons? Maybe they all read the Sun...
I fear the left doesnt seem to represent the little guy, and the little guy doesn't seem to be motivated by the traditional criticisms of the left. The NDP has to deal with this disconnect to go up in the polls.
Sun, 2010-06-20 18:53
#9
Boom Boom
You'd think the NDP would do well in this riding (Manicouagan) what with supposed labour support in centres like Sept-Iles, but, no, federally it's been represented by the Liberal, Progressive Conservative, and now BQ.
Sun, 2010-06-20 19:08
#10
peterjcassidy
One of the roots of the NDP is J.S. Woodsworth, after being arrested for sedition for his role in the Winnipeg General Strike, being elected as one of the two Labour MPs in Canada abd ten, after years of struggle, leading the Progressives who did not get sucked into the Liberals or Conservatives to join the Saskatchewan Grain Growers and the CBRT and the LSR in forming a Co-eraive Commonwealth Federation with a wide range of affiliates and a manfesto concludng with a call for the eradication of capitalim.tht went on to elect MP's and MLA's and form the firtt socialist government in North America- a Farmer Labour Progressive government Up to about 1956 the Communist Party of Canada had relatively strong labour ties and could dispute the claim, but shit happnms By the late 1950's, early 1960's that battle was over, the NDP was formed by a merger of the CCf and CLC and the NDP was created and was and still is officially and practically the party of labour in Canada. I would be delighted to hear evidence that the party of Lucien Burchard and Jean LaPierre has become the party of workers in Quebec, but that is another question. 
Sun, 2010-06-20 19:24
#11
Could this thread be moved to the Religion and Mythology forum please?
Sun, 2010-06-20 19:34
#12
All general hit and run anti-NDP rhetoric should be directed to this thread where we can properly corner and deal with it. No running away and chickening out as usual.
Sun, 2010-06-20 19:38
#13
LOL (in response to Unionist's comment)
I cannot agree either, it seems to me that we have seen the NDP fall further into strategy and farther from integrity in the past few years. Their treatment of Libby Davies demonstrates the lengths they will go to appease the bullies.
Sun, 2010-06-20 20:02
#14
twaddle
Sun, 2010-06-20 20:03
#15
Cueball
Not much new there. We could say the treatment of Davies, McDonough and Robinson. Interestingly, in relation to this discussion we see that indeed the most principled NDP MP's are from some of the categories of persons who are mentioned in the OP as being specially represented by the NDP, a woman (from a category that was not actually mentioned in the OP, even though it should have been -- interesting exception there, btw) a Lesbian and a gay man.
On the one hand it is true that principled positions seem to be taken by persons representing those groups in the NDP caucus, and it begs the thought that coming from those places leads to a much deeper understanding of underlying principles that lead to principled stands, and that as a consequence, those people representing more marginalized communities are routinely punished for taking principled stands.
Sun, 2010-06-20 20:09
#16
I'm not a big fan of the line about how the NDP is "just another capitalist party" with no real qualitative differences with the Liberals, etc. but I'm pretty pissed off with the NDP these days, so I don't really feel like taking it on.
Sun, 2010-06-20 20:10
#17
Cueball
You are saying that Svend Robinson isn't gay, and that Davies isn't Lesbian and McDonough isn't a woman? Or are you saying those are not marginalized communities? Or is it that you are saying that those from more marginalized communities aren't more likely to take principled stands on the issues?
Maybe its just plain old bias, then.
Sun, 2010-06-20 20:16
#18
You are saying that Svend Robinson isn't gay, and that Davies isn't Lesbian and McDonough isn't a woman? Or are you saying those are not marginalized communities? Or is it that you are saying that those from more marginalized communities aren't more likely to take principled stands on the issues?
Yes, I'm saying Svend Robinson isn't gay. Happy?
And I see you're no longer saying that the NDP are secretive cult worshippers of the Ecole de Chicago. Or at least, not anymore. Will there be anymore wild conspiracy theories from you, or are you done?
Sun, 2010-06-20 20:25
#19
Cueball
Why should I repeat what I said up thread. Unlike some babblers (
) I don't have to repeat the same old tired schtick over and over again in each post. It is possible to develop a conversation in context, without needlessly repeating the same old information in each post. The danger of that however is that some Babblers will cherry pick their point of reference so they can make nonsense partisan excuses, without actually saying anything on point at all.
As for conspiracies, aren't you late for the latest update on the NIST "science" thread?
Sun, 2010-06-20 20:26
#20
And I am astounded at the notion that any special duty is owed to the NDP by workers, LGBTQ, and the rest. In my humble view, the duty owed is in the reverse direction.
Exactly!
Sun, 2010-06-20 20:32
#21
Why should I repeat what I said up thread. Unlike some babblers (
But you made a claim that the NDP is a bastion of neoliberalism without anything to back it up. And now you're on to baiting and fishing new waters. You'll never snag any fish that way.
As for conspiracies, aren't you late for the latest update on the NIST "science" thread?
I think that must be another topic of discussion you and crazy George Bush's sympathizers avoid altogether. Have you tried ritalin?
Sun, 2010-06-20 20:34
#22
Frustrated Mess
... it seems to me that we have seen the NDP fall further into strategy and farther from integrity in the past few years.
The nail has officially been hit on the head.
Sun, 2010-06-20 20:36
#23
Cueball
Neo-liberalism is the underlying ideological construct that informs all of the parties of the elite.
Sun, 2010-06-20 20:37
#24
peterjcassidy
LOL (in response to Unionist's comment)
I cannot agree either, it seems to me that we have seen the NDP fall further into strategy and farther from integrity in the past few years. Their treatment of Libby Davies demonstrates the lengths they will go to appease the bullies.
So we put you down for critical support? Critical but you do remember support?
Sun, 2010-06-20 20:51
#25
I wrote a letter of support to Pat Martin for his questioning the way in which the finances were handled for the Christian centre at Higgins and Main but by the time he got it he had already changed his view and was supporting the centre. I haven't heard back from him. Is that what you mean by support?
The last time I gave dollars was the year I volunteered for the campaign, I wish I had kept my distance, I liked them better before I knew them. lol
Glad to bring my hammer when needed, thanks FM.
Sun, 2010-06-20 21:19
#26
The CAW has basically divorced itself from partisan association. This has been encouraged by forces in the NDP that have successfully been trying to divorce the NDP from labour unions for at least a decade.
Ontario NDP candidates for the forthcoming election affiliated with the labour movement, from off the top of my head:
CAW - Tammy Schoep (Durham)
CAW - Ryan Dolby (Elgin-Middlesex-London)
CAW - Taras Natyshak (Essex)
CAW - Chris Buckley (Oshawa)
CAW - Peggy Nash (Parkdale-High Park)
CAW - Joe Comartin, MP (Windsor-Tecumseh)
CAW - Malcolm Allen, MP (Welland)
CAW - Trish McAuliffe (Whitby-Oshawa)
CEP - Mike Sullivan (York South-Weston)
CLC - Carol Hughes, MP (Algoma-Manitoulin-Kapuskasing)
CUPE - Ric Dagenais (Nepean-Carleton)
UFCW - Jim Koppens (Ajax-Pickering)
USWA - Wayne Marston, MP (Hamilton East)
USWA - Claude Gravelle, MP (USWA)
Stormont Dundas Labour Council - Darlene Jalbert (Stormont-Dundas-Glengarry)
I may have missed some. As you can see, the CAW is in no way supporting the NDP anymore.
Sun, 2010-06-20 21:41
#27
peterjcassidy
Could this thread be moved to the Religion and Mythology forum please?
Sorry unionist, mon frere, but this thread is not about myths but about reality. What I said is essentially factual and correct. line by lne sentence by sentence = from the roots of the NDP i Woodsworth and the Winnipeg general strike and the Labour party, repeat Labour party, the merger of the CCF and the Canadian Labour Congress,repeat Canadian Labour Congress. to form the NDP, the Labour party in Canada. You can look it up, it is really true. And with respect, if most of your adult life youand other babblers have not been supporting the NDP, that what were you doing?
We have a right and a duty to criticize the NDP and I have done my share but we also have a right and a duty to support the NDP I am getting a little ticked at faux lefties who seem to misread the whole nature of pariametary politics in Canada inlcuding the role of polticial parties and election. The NDP is the party of labour, the party of socialism, of social justice of LGTBQ. Remember the support in the criticism.
solidarity/
Sun, 2010-06-20 21:43
#28
The ties of the CAW to the NDP have always been more complex than those of other unions. They have never been unitary or unified, and carry on [or don't] at many different levels [even within the national union, let alone the locals].
The more things change, the more they stay the same. The Buzz Hargrove era just brought more attention to the relationship, which plays out below the radar to most people.
The effects on that relationship are driven by larger internal processes in both the NDP and the CAW. The very small group with any influence within the NDP that explicitly wants something like a divorce plays a very minor part in those processes. [And is probably close to invisible now.]
Sun, 2010-06-20 21:45
#29
I'm not a big fan of the line about how the NDP is "just another capitalist party" with no real qualitative differences with the Liberals, etc. but I'm pretty pissed off with the NDP these days, so I don't really feel like taking it on.
I praise stands of the NDP every day, every week, I vote for them, I campaign for them. My problem isn't the NDP. It is views like those presented by peterjcassidy. Dictates like those helped drive me away from membership long ago. That, plus a cult of dictatorship by the leader (and ignoring - totally and scornfully - convention decisions), a refusal to recognize Québec's right to self-determination (until that changed, to my delight, in 2006), and the suppression of critical support when it got too dangerous (the Waffle and other examples).
I have heard the same in the union movement all my life - that workers have to "support" their union. No, peter, they do not. When the union makes mistakes, workers have a sacred duty to correct them. When the union betrays, workers have a duty, to themselves and others, to get rid of it if they've tried and can't fix it. The same goes for the NDP or any other party.
The party can be good. But with views like peter's, the party is finished - dead.
Sun, 2010-06-20 21:48
#30
radiorahim
I support the NDP, but I'm increasingly holding my nose when I do so.
Sun, 2010-06-20 21:49
#31
peterjcassidy
I wrote a letter of support to Pat Martin for his questioning the way in which the finances were handled for the Christian centre at Higgins and Main but by the time he got it he had already changed his view and was supporting the centre. I haven't heard back from him. Is that what you mean by support?
The last time I gave dollars was the year I volunteered for the campaign, I wish I had kept my distance, I liked them better before I knew them. lol
Glad to bring my hammer when needed, thanks FM.
Voting NDP in elections, donating, volunteering are good support.
Do you mind saying if you normally do that?
Sun, 2010-06-20 21:57
#32
Neo-liberalism is the underlying ideological construct that informs all of the parties of the elite.
That's why when the federal Liberals made themselves out to be the most antiGST, anti-Mulroney FTA party in the 1993 election, they expanded Mulroney's neoliberal trade deal with NAFTA immediately after winning a phony majority. Therefore, in your opinion, because the Liberals lied, then so, too, would the NDP have flip-flopped. Even though you have no evidence for it. You are all about conjecture and heresay and wild speculation in general when it comes to the NDP. There, I saved you the effort.
Sun, 2010-06-20 21:57
#33
remind
The CAW has basically divorced itself from partisan association. This has been encouraged by forces in the NDP that have successfully been trying to divorce the NDP from labour unions for at least a decade.Ontario NDP candidates for the forthcoming election affiliated with the labour movement, from off the top of my head:
CAW - Tammy Schoep (Durham)
CAW - Ryan Dolby (Elgin-Middlesex-London)
CAW - Taras Natyshak (Essex)
CAW - Chris Buckley (Oshawa)
CAW - Peggy Nash (Parkdale-High Park)
CAW - Joe Comartin, MP (Windsor-Tecumseh)
CAW - Malcolm Allen, MP (Welland)
CAW - Trish McAuliffe (Whitby-Oshawa)
CEP - Mike Sullivan (York South-Weston)
CLC - Carol Hughes, MP (Algoma-Manitoulin-Kapuskasing)
CUPE - Ric Dagenais (Nepean-Carleton)
UFCW - Jim Koppens (Ajax-Pickering)
USWA - Wayne Marston, MP (Hamilton East)
USWA - Claude Gravelle, MP (USWA)
Stormont Dundas Labour Council - Darlene Jalbert (Stormont-Dundas-Glengarry)I may have missed some. As you can see, the CAW is in no way supporting the NDP anymore.
Brains and knowlege, always trumps the nonsense OO.
Good 1.
Sun, 2010-06-20 22:07
#34
I praise stands of the NDP every day, every week, I vote for them,
LMAO
I must have missed all those thread after thread you started praising the NDP.
Sun, 2010-06-20 22:08
#35
That's stunningly illogical.
Just because there are people from the CAW running for the NDP doesn't mean the CAW as an organization supports the NDP.
That's like listing all the NDP candidates who are Catholic and then using that to claim that the Catholic Church supports the NDP.
Sun, 2010-06-20 22:10
#36
Life, Unionist was very vocal in his support for Mulcair in the Outremont byelection.
Thanks LP, but this character never posts without attacking me. Kindly give him/her/it the satisfaction that real life denies.
Sun, 2010-06-20 22:12
#37
That's like listing all the NDP candidates who are Catholic and then using that to claim that the Catholic Church supports the NDP.
Or how about all the CAW members who are Catholic to prove that the CAW supports the Pope.
I see the logic there, Michelle - why can't you?
Sun, 2010-06-20 22:12
#38
That said, I still support and vote for the NDP. And I don't think the NDP is completely divorced from its labour roots. But there's some nose-holding involved when they pull shit like this on one of their best MPs.
Sun, 2010-06-20 22:12
#39
Boom Boom
I support the NDP, but I'm increasingly holding my nose when I do so.
Same here, but there are times when I'm tempted by the BQ, although our local BQ guy is useless.
Sun, 2010-06-20 22:15
#40
Life, Unionist was very vocal in his support for Mulcair in the Outremont byelection.
Thanks LP, but this character never posts without attacking me. Kindly give him/her/it the satisfaction that real life denies.
Really, you are the centre of my world? Who knew. I guess all those posts in threads I have made must be imaginary. What is it like to be the ego of babble?
Sun, 2010-06-20 22:15
#41
That's stunningly illogical.
Just because there are people from the CAW running for the NDP doesn't mean the CAW as an organization supports the NDP.
That's like listing all the NDP candidates who are Catholic and then using that to claim that the Catholic Church supports the NDP.
And don't forget that the largest student union in the country supports the NDP's plan for funding post-secondary education since the Liberals laid waste to it in 1995, too. I know lots of union workers and their families who are totally off of that party which feigns being to the left in election campaigns and then governs on the right once elected.
Sun, 2010-06-20 22:15
#42
Life, Unionist was very vocal in his support for Mulcair in the Outremont byelection.
And ottawaobserver is correct to point out that the NDP has quite strong ties to unions. While the majority of the Canadian working class has always voted Liberal and Tory, the bulk of union staffers and activists support the NDP. That fact however doesn't mean that the NDP is entitled to our support, and we should be well aware that there has been a loosening of ties in recent years.
Sun, 2010-06-20 22:20
#43
radiorahim
I support the NDP, but I'm increasingly holding my nose when I do so.Same here, but there are times when I'm tempted by the BQ, although our local BQ guy is useless.
Well at least in Quebec there is (sometimes depending on the local candidate) another option for progressives like the BQ...also...much more interesting...an alternative at the provincial level like QS.
Sun, 2010-06-20 22:21
#44
......
Voting NDP in elections, donating, volunteering are good support.
I consistently voted NDP for thirty years and for some years donated money to the party but as I said I stopped doing that after I volunteered and had an up close look at the NDP in Manitoba, now I vote to ensure the Conservativves don't get a seat. I don't like where I see the NDP headed, as I said before I think they have fallen to strategy and I think the NDP you are describing is the one of yesteryear and that party will not return until politicians of true integrity are willing to step forward.
Sun, 2010-06-20 22:31
#45
I like progressive parties like the BQ, and especially when they went against the NDP in Parliament and vocally supported the CIA's abduction of Haiti's first and last democratically elected president in 2004. But I guess that's another progressive-regressive thread topic of anti-NDP discussion.
Sun, 2010-06-20 22:36
#46
Just because there are people from the CAW running for the NDP doesn't mean the CAW as an organization supports the NDP.
But OO didn't make that claim.
The list of candidates does support what I said: that between the NDP and CAW, the more things change, the more they stay the same. [Which I placed in the larger context of things not changing: the old days of more professed support of the NDP were really no different than the present where the CAW is nominally less inclined to partisan support.]
Sun, 2010-06-20 22:36
#47
Boom Boom
Well at least in Quebec there is (sometimes depending on the local candidate) another option for progressives like the BQ...also...much more interesting...an alternative at the provincial level like QS.
The BQ are far from perfect, just another choice away from the Cons and Libs. But it's frustrating to me that they allow a neanderthal like our MP to stand for office in their name. I'd love to see QS win out here, but that's not likely to happen in my lifetime, just like the NDP getting elected here won't happen in my lifetime.
Sun, 2010-06-20 22:39
#48
remind
That's stunningly illogical.Just because there are people from the CAW running for the NDP doesn't mean the CAW as an organization supports the NDP.
That's like listing all the NDP candidates who are Catholic and then using that to claim that the Catholic Church supports the NDP.
What is actually "stunningly" illogical is comparing a labour union to a church, especially the Catholic one.
Do you think that people in the labour movement would be candidates of the NDP, if they were not supportive of the NDP?
If the NDP was distancing itself from the labour orgs, do you think they would be accepting so many labour org candidates?
Sun, 2010-06-20 22:41
#49
The NDP has actively supported a Canadian military presence in Afghanistan, and indeed their FF critics have been very equivocal (Black.Dewar) on the issue of Canadian military intervention, despite a clear statement on policy which demands immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan without caveat.
Do you think this support of the military has produced any positive results with the public? Has there been an increase of support because of this pro-military stance?
Sun, 2010-06-20 22:45
#50
I run around with pamphlets for the NDP every election, and all of us agree that it's a waste of time to go to those houses with yellow ribbons displayed on homes and cars. Nope, they don't like the NDP none too much. One guy told me to get the hell off his property and slammed the door. I just don't understand it. How can the NDP project itself as any more pro-war and pro-US led military occupation of the Stan? I mean come on! Four more wars? I don't think they're buyin' it.
Sun, 2010-06-20 22:47
#51
You are saying that Svend Robinson isn't gay, and that Davies isn't Lesbian and McDonough isn't a woman?
Actually, I believe Libby Davies self-identifies as bisexual and not lesbian.