Canadians send message to G20 in recent Toronto violence

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Sat, 2010-06-26 20:49

Alexander

This seems timely but its nice to see Canadians telling off the G20 a little more directly ...

Especially given that merely talking about violence in protesting is banned/censored on this forum, how does the group here feel about whats happening without their input?

Given the failure of your style of left politics the past 30-40 years is anyone suprised or less then happy about the events in Toronto?

Quote:

Police in riot gear and protesters continued to clash Saturday evening following a massive anti-G20 protest march through downtown Toronto in which at least three police vehicles were set ablaze, store and bank windows smashed, and much of the area put under security lockdowns.

Shortly before 8 p.m., a police vehicle that had been damaged earlier in the day on Queen Street, just east of Spadina, was torched. Police in riot gear descended on the burning wreckage to push people back.

Police cruisers were torched earlier at the corner of King and Bay streets in the heart of the city's financial district, sending plumes of black smoke into the air. At one point, as one vehicle burned, protesters surrounded police officers who were trying to protect the car, CBC reporter Amber Hildebrandt reported on Twitter.

The size of the protest crowd was estimated to be as high as 10,000. Witnesses said tear gas had been used in the area around the provincial legislature at College and University, but police denied any had been used in the city.

Sat, 2010-06-26 20:53

Stargazer

Troll.

Sat, 2010-06-26 20:54

Papal Bull

Stargazer wrote:

Troll.

Even worse...

It is a thread proliferator!

Sat, 2010-06-26 20:56

Stargazer

Hahahaha. Infiltrator. He might be an agent of the state.

Sat, 2010-06-26 21:01

Alexander

Stargazer wrote:

Hahahaha. Infiltrator. He might be an agent of the state.

*Sigh*

Yes, I waited 5 years to make this post, boy was it worth it.

Noone has anything serious to add to this? oh well, should have guessed.

Sat, 2010-06-26 21:03

Unionist

Perhaps another 5 years and you may be ready.

Sat, 2010-06-26 21:07

Alexander

Unionist wrote:

Perhaps another 5 years and you may be ready.

In another 5 years the left will be even more irrelevant and inequality will be even worse.

Just hope whomever has the foresight to truly oppose conservatives have your best interests in mind.

Sat, 2010-06-26 21:23

Stargazer

What to say? Go back to watching CP24...

Sat, 2010-06-26 21:26

E.Tamaran

Re Alexander. How can someone have an account for over 5 years and never post, and then the very first post gets called out as a troll? Who would keep an account for that long, or even remember it? And why would this be the very first thing to comment on after 5 years, instead of maybe Katrina, Iraq, Afghanistan, recession, Harper's election, Harper re-election, Dion, Ignatieff, war in Gaza, war in Gaza 2, Obama, etc... Doesn't make sense

Sat, 2010-06-26 21:26

#10

Alexander

Stargazer wrote:

What to say? Go back to watching CP24...

Whats CP24?

Sat, 2010-06-26 21:29

#11

Alexander

E.Tamaran wrote:

Re Alexander. How can someone have an account for over 5 years and never post, and then the very first post gets called out as a troll? Who would keep an account for that long, or even remember it? And why would this be the very first thing to comment on after 5 years, instead of maybe Katrina, Iraq, Afghanistan, recession, Harper's election, Harper re-election, Dion, Ignatieff, war in Gaza, war in Gaza 2, Obama, etc... Doesn't make sense

This is part of the problem *L*

You cant phathom how its possible, no doubt you may even think theres some conspiracy behind it.

Actually I signed up for this account under an old email address 5 years ago, recently dug through it, found the email response and decided to login.

But please, dont let the facts ruin anything.

Sat, 2010-06-26 21:29

#12

Stargazer

Good question. His very first post was an attack on how the left, yeah, us with no power, are really to blame for the inquality in society.

Sat, 2010-06-26 21:55

#13

Alexander

Stargazer wrote:

Good question. His very first post was an attack on how the left, yeah, us with no power, are really to blame for the inquality in society.

Dont put words in my mouth.

Whos side do you think I am on? (smartass reply ready!)

Im a leftie thats started to think we have exhausted our avenues.

We have gained almost nothing in the past 30-40 years, someone mentioned LGBT rights and thats true, so there are some victories, but the big ones of equality and justice are worse today then during the great depression and rather then talk about it we do essentially nothing.

Europe has protests that shut down who cities, we cant even look at a few cop cars burning without talkign about "civilized societ" *L*

We (the left) have failed at nearly everything, for decades, it breaks my heart and its not enough that the conservatives have taken over, they want to force us to love them too and as long as you do nothing they will put you farther down on their hit list.

Thats what the left has done, avoided the subject, over and over, the fact is the strikers of the great depression would be ashamed of us, they died for a better society and here we are, more than willing to hand over our lives and our childrens lives to corporations.

Anyway, some will be indifferent, as youve already shown, some will care but wont have the courage to DO something (like me most of the time) and some of you will just be content to fade from relevence even more, maybe when your a grandparent and you see the shitty life your grand child will have you will have wished you did everything in your power to change the system.

The point is that despite a slight left swing after the Bush era we are as conservative a country as we have been since Mulroney and whatever we are doing, we arent being effective.

We should be shutting down our system, using every tool at our disposal.

Sat, 2010-06-26 22:01

#14

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Alexander wrote:

Stargazer wrote:

Good question. His very first post was an attack on how the left, yeah, us with no power, are really to blame for the inquality in society.

Dont put words in my mouth.

Whos side do you think I am on? (smartass reply ready!)

Im a leftie thats started to think we have exhausted our avenues.

We have gained almost nothing in the past 30-40 years, someone mentioned LGBT rights and thats true, so there are some victories, but the big ones of equality and justice are worse today then during the great depression and rather then talk about it we do essentially nothing.

Europe has protests that shut down who cities, we cant even look at a few cop cars burning without talkign about "civilized societ" *L*

We (the left) have failed at nearly everything, for decades, it breaks my heart and its not enough that the conservatives have taken over, they want to force us to love them too and as long as you do nothing they will put you farther down on their hit list.

Thats what the left has done, avoided the subject, over and over, the fact is the strikers of the great depression would be ashamed of us, they died for a better society and here we are, more than willing to hand over our lives and our childrens lives to corporations.

Anyway, some will be indifferent, as youve already shown, some will care but wont have the courage to DO something (like me most of the time) and some of you will just be content to fade from relevence even more, maybe when your a grandparent and you see the shitty life your grand child will have you will have wished you did everything in your power to change the system.

The point is that despite a slight left swing after the Bush era we are as conservative a country as we have been since Mulroney and whatever we are doing, we arent being effective.

We should be shutting down our system, using every tool at our disposal.

Read this thread.

Sat, 2010-06-26 22:07

#15

takeitslowly

Shutting down the system!

I work 6 days a week and still dont make enough to save a dime, I just want to smoke weed and get drunk and rest on sunday so i can do it all over again in order to give my bank and student loan agency a blowjob.

Sat, 2010-06-26 22:36

#16

Alexander

takeitslowly wrote:

Shutting down the system!

I work 6 days a week and still dont make enough to save a dime, I just want to smoke weed and get drunk and rest on sunday so i can do it all over again in order to give my bank and student loan agency a blowjob.

We should be shutting it down for the better of all of us, including those that cant fight back ...

You know first hand where things are at and its not good, we deserve better!

Sat, 2010-06-26 23:07

#17

bagkitty

Well, I am not certain if Alexander is a troll as has been suggested, or a thread proliferator... but I see at least a few tell-tale signs of being a drama queen.

But let me start (as a gay male) by personally thanking Alexander for making it clear that LGBT rights are not, in his eyes at least, one of "big ones of equality and justice". Thanks, really appreciate that, makes me feel all warm inside... I do wonder though, given the broad time frame you mention, that 30-40 years, does that mean that the advances in reference to reproductive freedom and choice since, oh about 1970 were not one of the big ones of equality and justice? Or that forcing our official representatives to face and attempt to redress the unjust internment of suspect classes of people (well, races actually) during the second world war is not one of the big ones of equality and justice? Or that the first steps in forcing our official representatives to face the unjust legacy of the residential school system is not one of the big ones of equality and justice? Or that any of the Charter challenges (and victories) that have addressed equality questions are not one of the big ones of equality and justice? Damn Alexander, exactly what are these "big ones"?

Alexander you are quite right, Europe has seen a lot more smashy smashy protests in the street over any number of issues. Smashy smashy is very dramatic. It has outstanding visuals. It gets people talking. Incremental changes are not dramatic, they seldom if ever provide even marginally interesting visuals. They are less likely to get people talking. I would question, though, if smashy smashy protests have produced results that somehow dwarf what has been achieved by the really "lacking in visuals" incrementalists of our watered-down left? I think not. If your criticism of the incremental leftists here in Canada was that they hadn't achieved enough I would be in full agreement with you, anything short of fully equality and justice is not enough... but your criticism seems to be that they have been dramatic enough, that they haven't provided enough adrenalin for a smashy smashy junkie... and to that I would respond that keeping adrenalin junkies and drama queens happy is not the responsibility of progressives. Keeping them happy is the responsibility of entertainers.

Sat, 2010-06-26 23:23

#18

Alexander

bagkitty wrote:

Well, I am not certain if Alexander is a troll as has been suggested, or a thread proliferator... but I see at least a few tell-tale signs of being a drama queen.

But let me start (as a gay male) by personally thanking Alexander for making it clear that LGBT rights are not, in his eyes at least, one of "big ones of equality and justice". Thanks, really appreciate that, makes me feel all warm inside

You totally took what I said the wrong way here, but I suspect you were looking for something anyway.

LGBT rights are big too, should I have listed all the big issues including immigrant rights, minority rights etc then said "but the big rights of X (not to be seem as the only big rights but as part of a bigger list of important rights) ...".

You insult me by deliberately assuming something so stupid and by insinuating that I dont see LGBT rights as "big".

Talk about trolling!

Quote:
... I do wonder though, given the broad time frame you mention, that 30-40 years, does that mean that the advances in reference to reproductive freedom and choice since, oh about 1970 were not one of the big ones of equality and justice? Or that forcing our official representatives to face and attempt to redress the unjust internment of suspect classes of people (well, races actually) during the second world war is not one of the big ones of equality and justice? Or that the first steps in forcing our official representatives to face the unjust legacy of the residential school system is not one of the big ones of equality and justice? Or that any of the Charter challenges (and victories) that have addressed equality questions are not one of the big ones of equality and justice? Damn Alexander, exactly what are these "big ones"?

See above, be ashamed of yourself.

Quote:
Alexander you are quite right, Europe has seen a lot more smashy smashy protests in the street over any number of issues. Smashy smashy is very dramatic. It has outstanding visuals. It gets people talking. Incremental changes are not dramatic, they seldom if ever provide even marginally interesting visuals. They are less likely to get people talking. I would question, though, if smashy smashy protests have produced results that somehow dwarf what has been achieved by the really "lacking in visuals" incrementalists of our watered-down left? I think not. If your criticism of the incremental leftists here in Canada was that they hadn't achieved enough I would be in full agreement with you, anything short of fully equality and justice is not enough... but your criticism seems to be that they have been dramatic enough, that they haven't provided enough adrenalin for a smashy smashy junkie... and to that I would respond that keeping adrenalin junkies and drama queens happy is not the responsibility of progressives. Keeping them happy is the responsibility of entertainers.

Incremental change? *L*

Any slower and we will be in full on fascism whispering about how we "stuck it to the man" because we stole an extra biscuit for ourselves *L*

But by all means lets talk about the progress thats been made the past 30-40 years, worker rights? union rights? living standards? healthcare? education?

And seriously though, snap out of it, you dont even know if im gay *L* so smarten up eh.

Sat, 2010-06-26 23:33

#19

Alexander

Its obvious that people here are looking for a target, which really, lets dance :)

But what is it about violence that has so many people unwilling to consider it or so defensive that they are willing to fabricate absolute nonsense to give themselves a reason to attack? (like our last poster bagkitty).

From the philosophical masturabatory idea of "would you push a button, killing one person to save 100" to the fact that the middle class is dying, deep integration is lowering our standards, worker rights have gone nowhere, theres no money left for peoples retirement, homelessness is high, etc etc and we cant seem to tackle any of these things ...

An additional question should be why is the left so ineffective?

Sat, 2010-06-26 23:37

#20

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Because the left has neither a common voice nor a common vision, as rabble, and this thread, is ample evidence.

Sat, 2010-06-26 23:56

#21

prowsej

Alexander, you fault the left for having "gained almost nothing in the past 30-40 years" in the areas of equality and justice.

I think that it's important that we be able to define what success looks like. 30 years ago, if you had told me that we could cut poverty amongst seniors by more than half, that we could cut the number of people jailed in Canada for non-payment of fines completely, I would have said that that would be a good start. We've done both of those things (Old Age Security and the BC Motor Vehicles Act Reference to the Supreme Court of Canada, respectively). Let's take stock of our successes and define our goals clearly.

Sat, 2010-06-26 23:58

#22

Alexander

Frustrated Mess wrote:

Because the left has neither a common voice nor a common vision, as rabble, and this thread, is ample evidence.

True, but I dont think thats the only reason.

If we took a vote most people here would probably (or so it seems) say that violence is never necessary, now first year philosophy students realize thats ridiculous and the left is made up of many (almost all) intellectuals, so I also suspect that there are people reading this thread that wont respond because they know their view would be logical, well thought out and considered harsh.

Under the banner of the left we have tried many things, protests of course, setting up groups, foundations etc, coops, work in political parties, work in business even but none of the current approaches have worked.

Maybe theres an argument that a focus on one thing would work, like if we all could stuck to our guns and have a real general strike, I think that could work too, but its not realistic, maybe one day it can be.

Whereas violence can have a maximum impact with a minimal number of people.

I was watching some CBC today about the Toronto protest and one commentator asked what the protesters want and the reporter said something along the lines of "they see a lot of inequality and injustice and see this as an avenue to be heard" and it is. I see many on the left call palestinian fighters, "freedom fighters" but when it comes to our own back yards we cant be bothered, whether some ethically would never be violent, even to save themselves and others that are just confused or lazy.

If we cant get a general strike to shut down a city until living standards are fixed or raised, then what other ways can we effectively make change? like I said, we have tried lots of things over a long period of time and its only gotten worse for the majority of us.

Sun, 2010-06-27 00:01

#23

Unionist

Psssst... this strike/demo/movement is going nowhere... I know where we can get some firearms...

Sun, 2010-06-27 00:03

#24

Alexander

prowsej wrote:

Alexander, you fault the left for having "gained almost nothing in the past 30-40 years" in the areas of equality and justice.

I think that it's important that we be able to define what success looks like. 30 years ago, if you had told me that we could cut poverty amongst seniors by more than half, that we could cut the number of people jailed in Canada for non-payment of fines completely, I would have said that that would be a good start. We've done both of those things (Old Age Security and the BC Motor Vehicles Act Reference to the Supreme Court of Canada, respectively). Let's take stock of our successes and define our goals clearly.

I think thats fair, I wonder if your not looking a bit too far into the past but we know we can say things like our maximum age limit is getting higher, that medicine advances are amazing and helping, that we have a near 100% literacy rate, with the internet we have better access to government and rules etc.

I think the world is too complex to just say its all gone to shit, we dont worry about our employers chaining us into our work place, granted we do allow companies to do that to people overseas but anyway, I hear you.

Even with the silver lining, I still think we have a dark cloud over our heads, agree?

Sun, 2010-06-27 09:32

#25

Stargazer

Okay Alexander, I am beginning to understand what you are saying, and to a point, I agree with it. We have made significant gains in some ares and now we find ourselves having to fight for them all over again (for the most part)

The problem is, your OP was full of condemnation for the left, and since we are part of the left, it can be taken personally and as an attack. (Also, can you stop with the low level attacks on bagkitty - we are a fiercely loyal group here)

So how do you see the left becoming a more cohesive and legit force for change? What can we do in your view to achieve any real true long term change? Someone suggested we become more like the right (I do not endorse this view). I would be interested in what your suggestions are.

Sun, 2010-06-27 10:36

#26

Michelle

Right on, bagkitty. Thanks for that outstanding post!

Sun, 2010-06-27 10:40

#27

Boom Boom

I think demos against G8/G20 are absolutely necessary to show dissatisfaction with their policies, but also progressive meovements need to be supported as well as progressive political parties. I personally can not condone violence at demos, though. I'll always believe violence at these demos are set up by police infiltrators in the crowd unless someone can prove otherwise - it's clear to me that government thugs want to justify their padded expenses for security and weapons, and televised images of police cars burning and windows being smashed make great television for these purposes. I tend to be cynical when it comes to the police and government spending on security at these events.

Sun, 2010-06-27 14:00

#28

Alexander

Stargazer wrote:

Okay Alexander, I am beginning to understand what you are saying, and to a point, I agree with it. We have made significant gains in some ares and now we find ourselves having to fight for them all over again (for the most part)

The problem is, your OP was full of condemnation for the left, and since we are part of the left, it can be taken personally and as an attack. (Also, can you stop with the low level attacks on bagkitty - we are a fiercely loyal group here)

Yup, pretty frustrating ...

Im just tacking my list of greivances on the cathedral door, I want better.

I am done talking about bagkitty, I just assume he was already worked up and wanted to insult me over something, had nothing of substance and made the ridiculous assertion he did.

Quote:
So how do you see the left becoming a more cohesive and legit force for change? What can we do in your view to achieve any real true long term change? Someone suggested we become more like the right (I do not endorse this view). I would be interested in what your suggestions are.

Not sure what points on the right could work but I dont think it hurts to be more aggressive.

I think we need to be more aggressive in debates for one. The liberal spectrum believes that everyone deserves to be heard, this in theory sounds nice, in reality it becomes a farce.

I will use the example of creationism v.s. evolution, on the right they claim the left is working to silence their voices, that they deserve equal time etc and they are getting it! we shouldnt allow it, in this example one side is dealing with facts and reality and the other side is stupid conservatives, we have ever right to stand up and tell them to shut the hell up and leave the room because they are wrong, granted things have gotten so bad in this respect that a bunch of better minded people have come forward, like dawkins, hitchens etc, but this is one example.

I could give some other examples but let me cut to the chase, our system is designed to be anti-left leaning, I just dont see a good argument for how we can be effective in this country without a severe overhaul, maybe even the complete removal of capitalism.

I would like to see protests like we have in Europe, shut the whole damn citydown and when they send in the cops with tear gas, spend the next 4 nights fighting with them until the powers that be, quietly reverse their oppressive measures, thats not too hard to do, but its apparently impossible for us here to muster.

To change that we have to get more aggressive, REFUSE to accept our lot and (and this is a big one) we need to stop thinking only as individuals and start thinking more collectively.

Maybe we should consider making regular violent protest part of our strategy, get fed up farmers to help and spray pig manure on the police station entrance, sneak into parliament and obstruct their votes, more pies in the face of politicians and businesses people, set fire to a few asshole corporate locations, regularly vandalize gas guzzling vehicles, find out where BP employees work and dump oil on them, punch your boss in the face *LOL*

Stop rolling over, make change, now! we cant wait, we should be rushing the streets and we wont and itll get worse and it will be our fault for not taking the necessary steps.

Sun, 2010-06-27 14:42

#29

Catchfire

Continuing the discussion from here.

Sun, 2010-06-27 14:55

#30

Buddy Kat

What a sham this sign carrying demonstration is. First we have a media concentrating on black bloc instead of issues …then we have a PM calling them thugs when the real thugs are on the other side of the fence.

We have the cops whining when the only blood drawn thus far is that of protesters. We have decoy cop cars strewn out to keep vandals busy and media in frenzy. Public sucking it all up like ice caps and a bloc that thinks they have been successful. What a waste of time, money etc. Obviously things aren’t to bad in Canada to reverse the entire tactic .

The silver lining is the protesters did get bang for there buck…3-10 thousand souls will work for 25 years min. pay a total of at least a billion plus in taxs..so I guess you can say they paid for this waste and the ork salary and all their weaponry. The message Canadians are sending is “ we are whimpy media controlled thugs” cause the media says so. The first step is to have a left wing national media, until then protesters will always be weakened by media coverage.

Sun, 2010-06-27 14:59

#31

abnormal

Buddy, if you actually think this accomplished anything except to convince the "average" Canadian that the protesters don't have any valid concerns I can make you a deal in some swampland in Florida. (After all, there's oil in that there land.)

The actions of the Black Bloc have seriously damaged the credibility of the legitimate protesters.

Sun, 2010-06-27 15:10

#32

Catchfire

Why Dave Coles is a legend.

Quote:
Here is some footage of us at the corner of Richmond and Spadina where they blocked us from going south. At one point police behind this front row knelt and aimed their CS gas cannons at us, but after what you see on this video the police who were preparing to fire at us got up and pulled back. It was quite tense, but eventually people began dispersing and the atmosphere eased.

Sun, 2010-06-27 15:12

#33

6079_Smith_W

I don't know if anyone has posted this terrifying story yet:

http://toronto.mediacoop.ca/story/%E2%80%9Ci-woke-gun-pointed-me%E2%80%9...

You'd think for $2 billion the police could afford to have a few phone books on hand in order to know whose door they were breaking down.

Sun, 2010-06-27 15:17

#34

NDPP

abnormal wrote:

The actions of the Black Bloc have seriously damaged the credibility of the legitimate protesters.

NDPP

I don't think so. Even TO Police Chief Bill Blair was careful to point out 'the legitimate protesters like the labour unions that worked with us' and the 'Black Block criminals'. This theme and variation was tirelessly repeated in all the coverage I saw.

Sun, 2010-06-27 15:23

#35

Jacob Two-Two

Some form of violence is often an essential part of social change, as the stutus quo rarely rolls over without a fight, and they have a legal monopoly on violence that they don't mind using when they feel threatened. The difference between now and the radical confrontations of bygone eras is that these days most people aren't radicals.

When you have a political culture that is generally agreed on the necessity of violence in their struggle, as you did in the dirty thirties, then you can do what needs to be done without alienating your allies. If, like today, you don't have that, then trying to jump into this, even when it's necessary (though the G20 protests wouldn't qualify) only makes you the enemy of those who share your views but believe in non-violent change. You can't just start busting shit up because you've decided it needs to happen. You have to be persuasive and create a consensus that this is necessary within a movement. If you can't do this, then you will be marginalised, and maybe it's because your argument just isn't that good.

You could say that this is what you're trying to do here, but insults and dismissals of past struggles are not the way to go about it.

Sun, 2010-06-27 15:36

#36

abnormal

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

abnormal wrote:

The actions of the Black Bloc have seriously damaged the credibility of the legitimate protesters.

NDPP

I don't think so. Even TO Police Chief Bill Blair was careful to point out 'the legitimate protesters like the labour unions that worked with us' and the 'Black Block criminals'. This theme and variation was tirelessly repeated in all the coverage I saw.

And you really think that message registered with Joe Average?

Sun, 2010-06-27 15:36

#37

Merowe

Well said Jacob Two-Two, my post no longer needed.

Sun, 2010-06-27 15:42

#38

Transplant

I got a good look through binoculars at the ELINT plane that's been circling downtown Toronto. It's not a US C-130 Herc at all, but rather a Canadian Forces [url=http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acimages/p3cp140_kp.jpg]CP-140 Aurora.[/url]

It was orbiting downtown this this morning but it's now orbiting the 401-409 route to Pearson airport.

Sun, 2010-06-27 15:55

#39

The black bloc can go fuck themselves. They HIJACKED the march yesterday and showed zero RESPECT for the rest of the demonstrators. They should be shunned from protests because they act like a bunch of fascist THUGS. RESPECT means not engaging in actions that endanger other people - other protesters and the people in the businesses where they smashed the windows. It means not using the demo as a human shield. It means not engaging in actions which undermine the message of the march without any consultation. The fact that these little brats chant "this is what democracy looks like" while they undermine the movement is disgusting. They wouldn't know democracy if it hit them over the head with one of their little weapons. Thanks to the black bloc, the cops got their photo op, the media found an excuse to ignore the issues, and a bunch of innocent people got arrested. Make no mistake - the police repression has been outrageous. The corporate media always sucks. But the black bloc helped make it worse. They are saboteurs plain and simple.

Sun, 2010-06-27 15:56

#40

Freedom 55

SparkyOne wrote:

I don't know what news paper you're reading that's giving a comprehensive account of all our issues thanks to the media attention from the violence. Can you show me some of the articles?

I haven't seen any. That was my point. We're not seeing that now; and we wouldn't be seeing that from the MSM even if yesterday's protest had been entirely polite and civil. The MSM's simply not interested in doing that, regardless of how we conduct ourselves.

Sun, 2010-06-27 16:06

#41

edmundoconnor

Alexander, if no progress had been made in the last 30-40 years, we'd still be having raids on bathhouses.

Sun, 2010-06-27 16:07

#42

Unionist

Jacob Two-Two wrote:
The difference between now and the radical confrontations of bygone eras is that these days most people aren't radicals.

I don't think that quite captures the phenomenon we're seeing.

The difference between now and then is that certain police agents (conscious or unconscious) are now treated with kid gloves, or even turned into heroes, by organizations and organizers that seem afraid to lay down the law and enforce discipline. "Diversity of tactics" never existed in the workers' struggles of the 30s, and I can testify that it has no place in our struggles today. We decide the tactics, and [i]everyone[/i] follows the game plan.

In other words, a difference between now and then is the difference between mass struggle and individual faux heroics.

Catchfire wrote:

Why Dave Coles is a legend.

Brilliant - thank you Catchfire! Now that's what I was just talking about.

Sun, 2010-06-27 16:16

#43

Durrutix

Important article on this subject:

Thoughts on a Neglected Category of Social Movement Participant: The Agent Provocateur and the Informant

http://web.mit.edu/gtmarx/www/neglected.html

One wonders why if terrorism, mindless vandalism and general violence were so effective in promoting leftist causes that the Pinkertons, the FBI, the CIA and other forces of unfreedom throughout modern history have constantly sponsored and/or encouraged these types of activities agmonst leftist and labor groups.

Ironically, it is precisely the tactics that the OP endorses that have reduced the power of the left for well over a century. From the propaganda of the deed to COINTELPRO to Gladio, provocateured and false flag violence have been a major factor in neutralizing progressive causes and strengthening the forces of oppression.

If Alex is sincere in his beliefs I encourage him to read that article in full.

Sun, 2010-06-27 16:26

#44

Unionist

Freedom 55 wrote:

I haven't seen any. That was my point. We're not seeing that now; and we wouldn't be seeing that from the MSM even if yesterday's protest had been entirely polite and civil. The MSM's simply not interested in doing that, regardless of how we conduct ourselves.

We got your point, Freedom. But by highlighting the assholes, the MSM very deliberately tries to prevent the movement from growing and recruiting.

So why not condemn the window-smashing and arson, and suggest better ways for progressive organizations to get their message out without relying on the MSM?

Sun, 2010-06-27 16:38

#45

Fidel

Which chapter of lefties to these violent protesters hold membership cards in anyway? Perhaps the violence is just a natural reaction to a global capitalist system that isn't working very well. It's either that or they are gladio provocateurs paid to raise hell in prodding sheeple everywhere to demand more security. [sounds of bleeting in the distance]

Sun, 2010-06-27 16:38

#46

abnormal

Fidel wrote:

Which chapter of lefties to these violent protesters hold membership cards in anyway? Perhaps the violence is just a natural reaction to a global capitalist system that isn't working very well. It's either that or they are gladio provocateurs paid to raise hell so that sheeple demand more security.

Or perhaps there is no noble thought or ulterior motive. Maybe their entire motivation is that "It's fun to smash and burn things so lets do in now. That way people will think we're protesting the system instead of being simple thugs."

Sun, 2010-06-27 16:39

#47

Freedom 55

Unionist wrote:

Freedom 55 wrote:

I haven't seen any. That was my point. We're not seeing that now; and we wouldn't be seeing that from the MSM even if yesterday's protest had been entirely polite and civil. The MSM's simply not interested in doing that, regardless of how we conduct ourselves.

We got your point, Freedom.

Actually, I was responding to SparkyOne, who didn't get my point. She thought I was saying that yesterday's property destruction had led to positive media coverage, which wasn't what I was trying to say at all.

Sun, 2010-06-27 16:40

#48

edmundoconnor

Dave Coles, well done.

Sun, 2010-06-27 16:55

#49

Fidel

abnormal wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Which chapter of lefties to these violent protesters hold membership cards in anyway? Perhaps the violence is just a natural reaction to a global capitalist system that isn't working very well. It's either that or they are gladio provocateurs paid to raise hell so that sheeple demand more security.

Or perhaps there is no noble thought or ulterior motive. Maybe their entire motivation is that "It's fun to smash and burn things so lets do in now. That way people will think we're protesting the system instead of being simple thugs."

Yes, it's not like globalizers have ever had problems with protests to their agendas wherever they've met before behind closed doors in some really obscure and remote locations around the world. According to you it's just another good excuse for pillaging and sacking and defiling private property as far as young and inexperienced people are concerned etcetera.

What globalizers want to do is have us demand more security. That was the objective of stay behind gladios in post-WW II Europe. They desire to create conditions whereby we demand that they make us to hang on high hooks, and that we insist that they divvy us up into lamb cutlets. It's easier for them that way.

Sun, 2010-06-27 17:10

#50

ArghMonkey ArghMonkey's picture

Listening to Bill Moyers podcast, "Populism, Social Change and the World", seems to fit with what we are talking about here. http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/podcasts/index.html

Sun, 2010-06-27 17:11

#51

Ripple

In my opinion, calling people sheeple and battery chickens doesn't really help to grow the movement much. We sheeple don't like it. People are asking me where they can go for a different perspective on this. I'd like to send them here.

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