Demand for G-20 public inquiry - Part 2

Weirdly, The Sun's Warmington is actually telling it like it is.

Blair got it wrong: Warmington http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/joe_warmington/2010/06/28/14549421.html#/news/columnists/joe_warmington/2010/06/28/pf-14549426.html

 He actually hints in one article that Bill Blair is...losing it. I get that sense too, what he is saying makes no sense.

This other article proves that the chief is lying about the kettling, again, like all weekend. Its just been a string of lies.

And Dalton, and it seems the Mayor also have a finger in it, with the BS or lack of directness. Perhaps they will blame the chief and retire him. Or maybe they think if they keep lying, they will get away with it.

Its fascinating that only those who were there in person and saw it, know what really went on.

This time, the cops were out of line http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/joe_warmington/2010/06/27/1453...

Yes, on the news Blair mumbled that with a weird smirk on his face. Has this guy lost his marbles? Now they are lying about lying. This has to be the end of his career?

writer wrote:

[url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/police-admit-delibe... admit deliberately misleading public on expanded security fence law[/url]

That is another lie.

The police allowed the vandals to run around, to build the case for more police.

This entire thing is a "conspiracy". The leaders of G20 security, should be charged with negligence, and prosecuted. Their negligence could have lead to a sections of Queen St being burnt to the ground.

Its a madhouse, and the police system is just a stream of lies, ie, media propaganda designed to increase their budgets.

The looney left?  Seriously you think you have a clue when you use a term like that?

25,000 peaceful people walked through downtown surrounded by police, but for an hour 75-100 black clad indivduals who may or may not have even been protesters carry on causing damage with nary a cop in sight and you want to talk about responsibilty.  Give us a call when you grab a clue.

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

The looney left?  Seriously you think you have a clue when you use a term like that?

25,000 peaceful people walked through downtown surrounded by police, but for an hour 75-100 black clad indivduals who may or may not have even been protesters carry on causing damage with nary a cop in sight and you want to talk about responsibilty.  Give us a call when you grab a clue.

OK, here is that call. How many of those 25,000 "peaceful protestors" identified the 75 to 100 trouble makers to police so they could carry on peacefully protesting withouot being tarred as one of those trouoble makers? Thats right, none. If you stand by and watch a crime, but do nothing to prevent it, then you cannot claim innocence later. Guilty by commission or omission, but guilty either way.

Have these guys been arrested? They are easy to identify. No masks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-5jeaIh4YE

Big burly guys in snappy new casual cloths and haircuts that are a minute old. They seem to know each other. One seems to be very comfortable using a police vehicle radio. Hmmmm.

Why is it up to the protesters to do the cops' job?  They let those people trash stuff for an hour without lifting a finger. At any time, the cops could have come along and arrested them.  There have been thousands of cops lining the streets and several hanging out at each intersection for days, especially on Yonge Street, but then when people started trashing stuff on Yonge Street, they couldn't have dropped by and arrested them?  In fact, the head of the police association told Judy Rebick during a panel they were doing on CP24 that they were specifically told NOT to arrest the black bloc protesters.

Have you been to a protest?  As a protester, I don't have a birds' eye view of what's happening elsewhere.  If someone who had been trashing stuff on Yonge Street then ran over to Queen's Park to join a protest I was marching in, a) I wouldn't have seen what they did on Yonge St and therefore wouldn't know that it happened, b) I would probably not even know them, and therefore wouldn't know their plans.

The people protesting in Queen's Park were labour folks and people who wanted a peaceful protest.  It's not up to them to keep track of violent protesters -- that's the police's job, and they failed.  Instead, they let the violent protesters get away with it instead of arresting them in the act, and then disappearing into a crowd of people who probably didn't even know what they had been up to.  And now the cops are blaming the crowd instead of their own incompetence?

It's sad that you're buying it. Seriously, there are a lot of people on the left who have no more use for window smashers than you do, Tinman.  I'm one of them.

No you don't. You want a police state. That is why you apply a standard to protests, civilians, you don't apply to the police. Be honest with yourself.

Michelle wrote:

Why is it up to the protesters to do the cops' job?  They let those people trash stuff for an hour without lifting a finger. At any time, the cops could have come along and arrested them.  There have been thousands of cops lining the streets and several hanging out at each intersection for days, especially on Yonge Street, but then when people started trashing stuff on Yonge Street, they couldn't have dropped by and arrested them?  In fact, the head of the police association told Judy Rebick during a panel they were doing on CP24 that they were specifically told NOT to arrest the black bloc protesters.

Have you been to a protest?  As a protester, I don't have a birds' eye view of what's happening elsewhere.  If someone who had been trashing stuff on Yonge Street then ran over to Queen's Park to join a protest I was marching in, a) I wouldn't have seen what they did on Yonge St and therefore wouldn't know that it happened, b) I would probably not even know them, and therefore wouldn't know their plans.

The people protesting in Queen's Park were labour folks and people who wanted a peaceful protest.  It's not up to them to keep track of violent protesters -- that's the police's job, and they failed.  Instead, they let the violent protesters get away with it instead of arresting them in the act, and then disappearing into a crowd of people who probably didn't even know what they had been up to.  And now the cops are blaming the crowd instead of their own incompetence?

It's sad that you're buying it. Seriously, there are a lot of people on the left who have no more use for window smashers than you do, Tinman.  I'm one of them.

My last post on this I promise.

yes it is your job to keep track of volent protestors, jsut as it is your job to render first aid to an injured person if required or give evidence to investigators when you have knowledge about a crime that has been committed. It is called citizenship and sometimes it demands that we act with courage and conviction. So don't tell me you don't know that when someone shows up to a protest of this nature wearing a mask , a black hat and a black shirt, you don't know why they are there. I am glad to hear you are someone who has no use for window smashers, but sometimes you need to actually "DO" something about it even if nothing more than gathering a few people around you to shout the thugs down who do these things. You've got a voice, use it. Don't just ball out the cops because they wheren't everywhere at all times.

That's not true.  In fact, there is video of a couple of protesters yelling at the guys trashing the cop cars to stop doing it.  And another video of someone trying to do a citizen's arrest of a window smasher and getting stopped by a cop, who then let the window smasher go!  (I'm trying to find it - I'll post it later if I can find it. If anyone else has a link, please post it!)

My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the window smashing and police car torching happened away from the main protest area and march route.  In fact, I'm betting that if some of the labour folks who have spoken out since then against the black bloc had seen it happening, they probably would have told them to smarten up.

There have been a lot of activists speaking out against property destruction during protests.  I guess my question is, why do you expect ordinary citizens to do the job of the cops?  How the heck would we know who is committing this stuff?  And also, I'm certainly not trained to arrest or chase down someone even if I did see them do something.  That's the cops' job.  And they didn't do it, and now they're blaming peaceful protesters for their incompetence.

Tinman wrote:

My last post on this I promise.

yes it is your job to keep track of volent protestors, jsut as it is your job to render first aid to an injured person if required or give evidence to investigators when you have knowledge about a crime that has been committed. It is called citizenship and sometimes it demands that we act with courage and conviction. So don't tell me you don't know that when someone shows up to a protest of this nature wearing a mask , a black hat and a black shirt, you don't know why they are there. I am glad to hear you are someone who has no use for window smashers, but sometimes you need to actually "DO" something about it even if nothing more than gathering a few people around you to shout the thugs down who do these things. You've got a voice, use it. Don't just ball out the cops because they wheren't everywhere at all times.

What you seem to be missing is that the protest march had long moved on.  I was in that march.  Given the time frame between when we went passed that area and when things broke out the overwhelming majority of marchers were already back at Queens Park and no where near that area.  I saw police over and over that day - yet strangley there seems to be none in the video that was shot as these people made their way around the downtown for an hour.  It is passing strange to say the least. 

Michelle, this video gives a really good sense of how the damage unfolded: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5G7aCgXtWg

How much news coverage mentioned that windows were smashed at Toronto's police headquarters?

Really, truly. A billion dollars later.

Thats funny cuz thats what the protesters did you fucking troll.

Michelle wrote:

That's not true.  In fact, there is video of a couple of protesters yelling at the guys trashing the cop cars to stop doing it.  And another video of someone trying to do a citizen's arrest of a window smasher and getting stopped by a cop, who then let the window smasher go!  (I'm trying to find it - I'll post it later if I can find it. If anyone else has a link, please post it!)

My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the window smashing and police car torching happened away from the main protest area and march route.  In fact, I'm betting that if some of the labour folks who have spoken out since then against the black bloc had seen it happening, they probably would have told them to smarten up.

There have been a lot of activists speaking out against property destruction during protests.  I guess my question is, why do you expect ordinary citizens to do the job of the cops?  How the heck would we know who is committing this stuff?  And also, I'm certainly not trained to arrest or chase down someone even if I did see them do something.  That's the cops' job.  And they didn't do it, and now they're blaming peaceful protesters for their incompetence.

Very true.  I am almost 60, but despite that I would have had no problem wading into the crowd with my fellow brothers and sisters I used to work with at the salt mine and made sure nothing happened.  As it was the march was well on its way to Queens Park by then and no where near the 'action'- in fact I figure most of us were at Queens Park by then- or within sight of it- and starting to look for our busses home.

Let's be honest- a parade with a lot of steelworker, miners and others was happening.  Does anyone really think that if they knew about what was going on they couldn't have stopped it in a heartbeat.  This stuff took place well away from our march, but at a similar time and I expect for very good reasons it was not near the people who could have and would have stopped it when the police refused to do so.

Tinman wrote:

it is your job to render first aid to an injured person if required

No actually, it is not our job to do this, nor should you unless you have had training to do so, if the injuries are significant.

Quote:

or give evidence to investigators when you have knowledge about a crime that has been committed.

are the cops out there giving evidence against their brethen who have committed and are committing crimes?

Quote:

It is called citizenship

No actually it is not, citizenship is much more than the trivial things you apparently think it is.

Quote:

and sometimes it demands that we act with courage and conviction.

When are you going to start?

Exactly!  Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Which why an inquiry is needed. It seems pretty likely that the police allowed this situation, on purpose..

Tinman, please do watch the video - you'll get a real sense for where different things were happening.  The black bloc protesters weren't near the main protest when they did the damage.  As Life was saying, I think that if they had been, they'd have had a bunch of labour folks to answer to, because it was the desire of the labour organizers to have a family-friendly, peaceful protest and march. 

I think they would have been stopped had they done it in the middle of the protest.  And I'll bet they knew it, too, which is why they didn't do it there.  Or, to be more charitable, perhaps they were attempting to respect the family-friendly nature of the labour march by not having their smashfest anywhere near it. 

And frankly, I'm not convinced that they weren't being egged on by agents provocateurs, although I think it's just as plausible that the police just left their cruisers out there and deliberately abandoned the black bloc protesters, hoping they'd take the bait.

Well, that would be you of course, tinman, when you speak of something rotten here, and of course the lying cops.

No michelle sorry, but we do not have to engage this wanker here, nor convince him of anything, he has overlooked everything  showing what liars and abusers the cops are and made accusations against the "looney left".

Michelle wrote:

The thing is, folks, Tinman is an example of someone who needs to hear the other side of the story - s/he's the one we have to convince.  You've got your braindead dittohead Limbaugh-loving morons who would be just fine with a police state.  But it's the people who say, "I believe in the right to protest peacefully but I don't support violence" and who have only seen the mainstream media spin and lies by Bill Blair that need to be reached with the real story.  This is why alternative media and social media are so important when it comes to getting the word out.

I suppose I could dismiss hir as a stupid troll, and maybe s/he is.  Obviously the "looney left" thing is not endearing in the least.  But I've got a number of family and friends on Facebook who are also relatively reasonable people but are inclined to believe the police are always right and that whatever they see on mainstream news is gospel.  And I think exposing them to the other side of the story, and reasonably answering the arguments they're parroting from Blair and supposedly left-wing Miller and others, is really important.

Sometimes it's important not to wrap ourselves in a bubble.  It's important to engage people who show at least some reasonable sentiments (like supporting peaceful protest) and finding common ground.  I haven't always done this on babble (to say the least), so I understand the impatience, but I just wanted to explain why I'm engaging Tinman instead of just dismissing him as a "fucking troll".  Despite the "looney-left" insult, I actually found a lot in his first post in this thread to agree with.  That's worth engaging, in my opinion.

I really did intend to bow out of this conversation, but I do need to set a few things straight. First I is a he. Secondly, you assume that right wingers, and make no mistake, if you haven't figured it out by now, I am one, want a police state. Yet history teaches us that all the Police states and their leaders flow fromthe left. Here are a few names you might recognize. Woodrow Wilson, Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler, Benito Mussilini, [ please spare me the hitler and mussilini were right wingers line. If you believe that I got swampland in Florida for you ] Mao tse Tung, Pol Pot, Kim Jung Il, Saddam Hussien and honourable mention to an up and comming wanna be member of that presitgious group, Barak Obama.

What people like me want, is smaller government, lower taxes and more personal freedom/responsibility. Hardly the kind of thinking that brings about totalitarian regimes.  But with that said, we also want to live in a couontry that respects our institutions and rule of law. That was not on display this past weekend in Toronto.

Like Michelle says, there is plenty here to discuss and even agree on and to that I look forward. But don't for a second write my kind off as stupid or somehow beneath you. That would be a big mistake.

You're right, Michelle.  There is much confused thought out there. Like the little column and picture of Gary Robert Tinnes plopped into the Cambridge Times today, which begins:"A protester is a protester and they should all be included in the same category as the militants and Black Bloc hooligans. All of the pathetic whiners should look in the mirror and think to themselves what the hell they are thinking prior to attending one of these events.

"I am not disagreeing with free speech, just the way the protesters go about it. Get it through your head people, it is not a free world anymore. "

Gary never gets around to explaing just why it isn't free, or how he can defend free speech but not the pathetic whiners. And this throwaway tri-weekly comes to damned near every door in town.  Thinking people no longer rail against the drivel that the Times will publish to assuage its many advertisers.  But Tinman must know that he will be held to more demanding standards of logic hereabouts.

And now seeing his posting above, I can admit to having identified him as  a Libertarian in the labour thread. The Tinman's just a bit smoother than the Times' Gary Tinnes, but still on the same intellectual level.

Tinman wrote:

OK, here is that call. How many of those 25,000 "peaceful protestors" identified the 75 to 100 trouble makers to police so they could carry on peacefully protesting withouot being tarred as one of those trouoble makers? Thats right, none. If you stand by and watch a crime, but do nothing to prevent it, then you cannot claim innocence later. Guilty by commission or omission, but guilty either way.

That's just dumb. It's not like everyone personally knew them and what were they going to say anyway? "We saw some guys wearing masks breaking windows!" 

I am somewhat calmer for the moment.   I find this all very difficult to take in and remain calm.   It provokes... a lot of emotions that I do not, at the moment have an outlet... a constructive outlet for, and my usual balm, blathering here, is not providing it's usual catharsis.

I will give this my best shot.

Iquiries are good theatre, I suppose. 

But we have tons and tons and tons of footage over the weekend.   The police will be going over theirs, to see if they can make further arrests and lay further charges, increase their intelligence on certain people, etc. 

Add to their enemies list.

I think it would be more productive if we did the same.   Look at police action in this with an eye to laying private prosecutions. 

Bye for now.

Well michelle, the "we have to convince"  pretty much is indicative of you stating other people too. ;)

However, please note I was not using a harsh tone in my mind when I responded to you. I wasn't, and really I wasn't even responding to your words per se, but to tinman's obviously believing we should respond to him and heed his words.

Am just really sick of lack wit,  and lack seeking of truth, people, such as him, coming here and thinking they have a right, nay, a responsibility to  come here, sign up on an agreement to conduct themselves in a certain manner that is "left"  thinking, and then do the opposite of what they signed a contract to do, and duly pontificating at us as to what our 'righteous' citizen responsibilities are. And calling us hyprocrits too boot, while being the biggest hyprocrit in this thread.

It was quite obvious he included teaching the looney left as part of his civic responsibility to buck up and do... while failing to educate himself as to the truths of what happened before he did so.

And my apologies  as I am pretty much on my last nerve when it comes to right wing idiots, who are allowing themselves to be the pawns of those who are destroying the planet and its peoples.