Al Gore - Officially being investigated for sexual assault

That's a big if! Still, I'd really like a thread that discusses the fact that, generally, these things are taken as isolated incidents, if they are covered at all. Yet the problem is chronic. It's not just former vice presidents of the U.S.A. copping a feel and forcing their tongues down our throats.

Nixon was a former VP *and* president. Double whammy!

writer wrote:

Yet the problem is chronic. It's not just former vice presidents of the U.S.A. copping a feel and forcing their tongues down our throats.

Here's my hunch about how this comes to light. Men in positions of power are more likely to push themselves onto women. And the idea doesn't just pop into their heads "hey I'm powerful, I can get away with this." That is just one of the ways that their chummy little sub-culture breeds the heightened likelihood to push themselves on women.

So this is going on all the time. Most of the time the women get caught up in a web of silencing. But even then the silencing isnt total... people hear, they just dont do anything about it.

But when the men talked about are political figures, that usually ignored talk is going to come to the ears of people who have a muckracking interest. Nothing to do with anyone caring about the women involved.

I did say that this is just the tip of the iceberg. Just coming at it in a different direction. Which may be circuitous. Some of us are challenged that way.

I suspect there's some significant differentiation in that big pool.

That men in intimate relationships are much more likely to be restrained by taboos, and the simple fact that it requires more 'dehumanization' to objectify your daughter, neice, etc.

While in the realm of bosses and authority figures there are actually male sub-cultural supports that make it much easier for you to abuse women. I dont inhabit circles where that could be such a casual thing. Very different story for powerful politicians. [And I've known of enough display of it in the not so powerful ones too.] That doesnt mean I am not also a product of that male world that enables the abuse of women. But I do think the milieux of amle bosses makes it 'hyper likely'.... the more so the bigger the boss.

And that would not correspond at all with the popular culture idea of 'who would do that'.

Quote:

That men in intimate relationships are much more likely to be restrained by taboos, and the simple fact that it requires more 'dehumanization' to objectify your daughter, neice, etc.

KenS, this is where I get super pissed off, because you really don't know what you are talking about, and become part of the problem. This is exactly why I don't like the obsession about the sins of the famous. Where do you think most of the abuse comes from? Why do you think the more powerful men think they can get away with it? Because most men get away with it. Every fucking day.

E.Tamaran, I was with you until you chose to dump on feminists for this.

We are talking about a popular culture mythology of this kind of abuse of women as exceptional.  

Part of that mythology- nobody saying the most important part- but an important part of that mythology is that it is done by 'bad men.' And I'll bet you anything that the image of the bad man is of some working class or lumpen guy.

When everything we know about the abuse of women and male culture is that the more power, the more likely abuse is.

We're coming at this from different directions writer, but we're still both talking about male power and the effects. I am also talking about the concentration of male power. That does not make me someone who is excusing or trivialising the nature of male power in general.

writer wrote:

Men in power include fathers, uncles, friends of family, older brothers, cousins ... and the usual suspects (bosses, authority figures, etc.). A very, very big pool.

80 years from being a chattal object is not so far in some cases...or perhaps in most...

Sure enough we women appear on the surface of things, at least in the so called western world, to have gained some equity, women in places of high power, and all of that. But scratch that surface flash and glitter away, and it disappears almost completely.

How tied society is to the rights of the male penis is mind boggling, to me. It is like the sexist discourse that breaks out here, all too often,  hardly anyone notices. And most shrug, I believe mentally, when it is pointed out as "in no big deal".

It is a big deal, in fact, it could be the biggest deal, IMV.  Sometimes my heart clenches with the enormity of it all, and I wonder if it will ever resume normal beating.

In the other thread I was just reading my heart clenched, and I could not repond, too many memories, too many triggers, and no safe space to go. Mind scrambling all it could think to do was; "walk away".

But now in this thread, there is no place to walk... life reality for women and girls confront me.

skdadl said:

Quote:

I know that a lot of feminists believe we should stop hiding behind our physical vulnerabilities and just make ourselves strong and brave. I semi-wish I could think that way, but I can't -- I'm too old, not strong enough, head not in right place, easily intimidated everywhere but in words.

..was once such a feminist, perhaps  still am "underneath it all", but I face the reality that my presence and strength will not always be what they are... so am left with the feeling of vulnerablity, that I now recognize many women endure, perhaps throughout their entire lifetime. I have been blamming the victim, without realizing it.

then you, writer responded with your experience at a meeting where no female leadership voices were present. That happening was unpardonable, just as rabble's conducting a poll without female representation in it, was.

This means to me, that our words, as elder feminists, are very important. Especially our words challenging the male dominance on the left. If we cannot get our supposed allies to see their sexism and their re-enforcement of it, and cannot get women on the left to see their unconscious acceptance of it, we sure as hell can't get those on the right to.

Do we really need this, ET...?   Or Sven.  Or anyone.  Jesus what are we descending to here? 

George Victor wrote:

Do we really need this, ET...?   Or Sven.  Or anyone.  Jesus what are we descending to here? 

I don't believe that Sven has contributed to this thread. ???

skdadl wrote:

George Victor wrote:

Do we really need this, ET...?   Or Sven.  Or anyone.  Jesus what are we descending to here? 

I don't believe that Sven has contributed to this thread. ???

June 29, 2010 - 11:42pm (new) #1 (permalink)

Is Al Gore a sexual predator ...or is his accuser lying?  After reading the accuser's police statement, it's hard to tell.

Apparently, a friend of the accuser said she should remain silent and "just suck it up; otherwise, the world's going to be destroyed from global warming."

You have to go back a couple of days to find the old Natiional Enquirer reader at work, Skdadl.

You'll notice how he gets in his old climate change denial position as well.  He's a true prince.

Youre right Stargazer. I'm currently very pissed off by the endemic to this board "I know what you were [really] saying" and shoot first ask questions later. And that few appear to care. But if thats my beef, I can take it elsewhere.

For here and this thread in its own right, chalk me up as unapologetic. Considering the circumstances, not even for appearing to say something that I know both to be incorrect, and that can be legitmately read in a way that could be expected to piss people off.

We live in a very classist society. One where contemporary popular culture has gone a long way to simply erasing the working class- we dont exist, except as Archie Bunkers. And Babble is way too much a reflection of that. Classisst comments, more likley exprssions of classist ignorance, that just float by here. More problematic than that though is our absence. We don't exist. Or when we do, its to be patronized.

I have to watch that go by here more often than I have it forced in my face in the wide world. And its OK, I've been adapting to it my whole life. It doesnt often get me agitated. Much more frequently I channel into figuring things out- looking at what other people dont.

I'm about as working class as they come, Ken, and that's not my experience here at babble.   Maybe a bit, but it's hardly comparable to levels of oppression we see exemplified on this board on other bases, and I wouldn't even bring it up.

And, I prefer a class analysis to every issue.  Except this one.  I don't think sexual assault is a class issue at all.  It's a gender issue, period.   End of story.

.

I think, Ken that if you are a decent guy who wouldn't hurt a woman, you kinda think that's the overall norm, that the vast majority of your peers are from the same mold.   Had parents like you and I had, that taught you that being a man, and being bigger and stronger meant that you stood up for those not so endowed, and that exploiting those advantages gained by accident of birth is unthinkably, despicably, wrong.

But, this can't be true, Ken.   Not if a quarter of the things women in my life have told me about what they have endured at the hands of men they knew are true. 

And I believe them.  The ones I don't love are friends and they don't lie to me.

And, I think if you are like me, it's difficult to come to grips with that.  I mean, I know what I want to do about that, but that's just another manifestation of the same problem.

What are you teaching your sons.   What are you teaching your grandsons.  What are you teaching your nephews and grand nephews.

She says people pleaded with her not to go public with her account.

Obviously the press would be all over it and the climate bill was coming up and it would be more fuel for the tea baggers, and other raging Republicans and the  climate change naysayers.

My opinion of Al Gore was greatly diminished when I read about his lavish properties and lifestyle.

Unless environmentalists use electric bikes and take public transit,park and ride or atleast carpool, I have little respect for them.

My slogan is: A Prius is NOT a solution.

Sexual harrassment must be made public.

As to classism on Babble Tommy, maybe you don't mind being rendered invisible. But thats a discussion for another place.

As to the rest, you don't know anything about me. Nor have I denied anyone's stories or experiences. And what could you possibly know about what I teach? You must have imputed something. That is popular around here.

George Victor wrote:

Al is clearly guilty. ( Chalk up another one, Sven.........Sven?    By gosh he must love the back and forth that he initiates...and then leaves.

WTF are you talking about. Why not direct your words at the OP of THIS thread if you think it is unworthy of discussion. It is not like Swen pulled the topic from out of the blue.
Talk about baiting.

We all have our perspective based on what is currently happening to us, or what has happened in the past.  Unfortunately for a lot of reasons it's difficult to share that information for a lot of people in a venue like this. Your's truly being no exception, and you are right, Ken, while I try hard to read between the lines of other posters I didn't extend that courtesy to you.

I've never mastered properly managing anger into something constructive.  This time it came out all smugged up, I guess.

But now that I can see your point more clearly, I have to point out that while a lot people point to a "root cause" on an issue, and you and I often see class issues being the point of furthest reduction, and rightly so,  I think this is an instance where it's the other way around, that when an Al Gore or someone famous is accused or found guilty of sexual assault, we may view it as a class issue,  because the courts are a potent weapon against us in the class war.  And people in positions of power get cut much more slack than, someone with less power.   But that's not where the primary problem exists.

It's a gender issue, that's the point of furthest reduction on this.

And what has totally mind boggled me, is that it does get better when you get on the high side of middle age. The threat of/or implied sexual intimidation, I mean.

Guess I had an ageist mental construct about it and thought crap like that would stop later in life.

And you know, I have these tangled thoughts that go through me when it does. First impact is a sensation of feeling sick to my stomach and my jaw freezes in that pre-vomitting spastic kinda way, and a tunnell of awareness forms.

And reading something here, that is the word equivalent to sexist body language and behaviour, causes the same type of body mind response. Can't help it, and really don't have to help it, as it is NOT my fault that men are sexist, either consciously or un.

Am not going to dull my senses in order to accommodate men's desire to be supremist and sexist. Nor make apologies for immediate perceptions thereof, and my response to it. And here I will note that I do often ignore it when it happens here or suppress the full awareness response.

In fact, it gets worse, when men take offense, and start throwing up anecdotals for themselves, as really it is to reassure themselves, and not the women here perceiving, that if they were sexist all the women in their life would tell them so. Meanwhile, the reality could be, not saying it is, is that they might not be getting that feedback, as they dominate all the women they think/believe would tell them so.

Our roles in society are so ingrained into us, that most times we all just automatically perform in them, without depth of thought. Most women, I know at any rate, long ago numbed our response selves in order to function without continual anger and disgust, because we have to function in daily life.

I suppose this is what babble looks like to many observers:

Wouldn't you agree, Gentle Ben?

This is great.  I get criticized by some when I actually participate in threads...but then, remarkably, I even get the raspberries when I don't participate in a thread!

This is a bit of thread drift but since so many people in this thread have attributed motives to me on this subject, I would like to give a few examples of attempted [color=blue]mind reading[/color] being displayed here:

George Victor wrote:

You'll notice how [Sven] gets in his old climate change denial position as well.

My rollie-eyes, if you must know, was [color=blue]actually intended[/color] to indicate how silly the accuser’s friend was the hypothesize that bringing this matter to the police would somehow destroy, or even significantly damage, the climate-change movement.  I think it will do no such thing.

Ken Burch wrote:

While this does need to be investigated, we need to be aware of the fact that Sven's motive here was...

[SNIP]

Sven was starting his thread (from what I could see) solely to bait feminists for not denouncing Al Gore fast enough to suit him.

This is yet another attempt at mind reading – and a poor one at that.  But, I don’t really blame you for being off the mark in your mind-reading attempt (after all, I don’t believe anyone can actually read someone else’s mind).  What I do criticize you for, however, is your belief that you can actually read minds.  You have no idea what my “motive” was – or wasn’t – do you Ken?

My [color=blue]actual motive[/color] was that no one had noted this story about a significant political figure and after first hearing about it, I figured it would be a big story – and, in fact, this story may turn out to “have legs”.

Oh, as far as the comments go which assert that Gore is not a “political” figure now that he no longer holds elected office, since when has that been the definition of “political”?  He obviously remains very politically active – and he continues to hold significant political sway on many issues.   He’s still a political figure.  Now, that doesn’t mean that the accusations were politically motivated (that’s a separate subject – and I have seen nothing to indicate that they are politically motivated).

George Victor wrote:

pookie wrote:

WTF are you talking about. Why not direct your words at the OP of THIS thread if you think it is unworthy of discussion. It is not like [Sven] pulled the topic from out of the blue. Talk about baiting.

You haven't noticed Sven's modus operandi? Of course he "pulled the topic from out of the blue." And his rolling-eyed dig at environmentalists showed his motivation.

GV, please see my comments above about my presumed “motivation”.

George Victor wrote:

Neither [ET nor Sven] [was] "right" in setting off enmity between the sexes...

Some posters decided to shift the focus of the news story to a broader-scoped discussion.  That’s fine.  But, your statement implies that ET and I intentionally “set off” that debate – i.e., that it was our desire to see the debate move in that direction.  If I had desired to put the Gore story in that broader context, I would have.

[u][color=red]GENERAL COMMENT:[/color][/u] A lot of “enmity,” as GV says, would be avoided if people would stop trying to divine hidden intentions and unspoken motivations behind the words that posters write (not just my words – but the words of any poster, as it happen all the time here).  The result is usually a flare-up of anger (because, after all, no one here can read anyone’s mind and the attributed motivation or intent (usually an evil or otherwise nefarious motivation or intent) is more likely wrong that correct).

I went off half-cocked at writer the other day. And the timing I 'picked' to do that is unfortunate.

My real issue is that I'm obviously fed-up with the Babble dynamic of "discussion". Apparently so much so that I react to it even when there is no evidence of it.

Let alone the distraction I provided.

writer wrote:

Why do you think the more powerful men think they can get away with it? Because most men get away with it. Every fucking day.

Hold on a minute there ... I have no problem with saying it's a pervasive and widespread and that it happens every day ... but to accuse the majority of males of being serial rapists is plainly absurd (and sexist). I don't believe I am abnormal because I've never raped a woman! Are you saying I am? Maybe I'm parsing you incorrectly but that is how it's coming across.