Male Domination of Discussion

I haven't read the thread you linked to, but I'd like to make an obvious point. Most people use an alias, and for the most part I don't know who is male and who is female. Funny though when I joined I found one particular person so aggressive and obnoxious I automatically assumed she was male. Odd that...

Maysie wrote:

hs, a gentle suggestion for you is that it's a good idea to not respond to a thread of this kind, with an insult and a poke at a female babbler.

Thanks for starting this, 6079.

Oh for goodness sake, I didn't identify anyone. If we can't discuss the subject openly I move that this thread be closed.

I think I see what you are saying, but it seems like you are arguing stereotypes, which is the point I tried to emphasize by my example / experience.

I have a great story I love to share with fellow feminists on the subject of male domination. Basically, I was working on a union organizing drive, which in and of itself tends to be gendered very masculine in terms of a sort of a heroic discourse of The Union Organizers as a mod squad, all swigging drinks and swinging dicks after the latest blitz etc. etc...

Anyhoo, I had the companionship of another female organizer for awhile and she pulled me out of the hockey bar in which I was languishing, and took me out for a nice meal to chill. So when we got back, I explained to the campaign coordinator (who seemed to be questioning my need to get away from the team) that it was nice to just share a sisterly space for some downtime. "Oh?" he asked me. "Are we too macho?" Pleased and surprised that he was inviting this discussion, I hesitatingly said, "Well, um, yes, sometimes, this campaign feels a bit macho." "Oh," he said, thoughtfully. "Well. I'll reflect on that and get back to you." I took this as an encouraging sign and felt pretty happy about the fact that this input was being welcomed. I also thought he was pretty awesome for taking the time to think about it. In short, I felt very validated.

A few weeks later, we were in another bar (sigh) and the coordinator says to me cheerfully "Well, I thought about what you said." "Oh?" "Yes. And I talked to X (guy) and X (guy) and X (guy) about it. And we think you're wrong!"

The whooshing noise was partly me laughing in disbelief, partly a Very Large Point flying right over his head.

I offer this story up here and am glad to see this discussion on Babble. I've had all types of encounters with male domination, some far more disturbing than this one. But I think that, among progressives, this type of male domination occurs far more often and it's not the less problematic because it's engaged in by well-meaning individuals.

Aalya wrote:

I offer this story up here and am glad to see this discussion on Babble. I've had all types of encounters with male domination, some far more disturbing than this one. But I think that, among progressives, this type of male domination occurs far more often and it's not the less problematic because it's engaged in by well-meaning individuals.

Great story Aalya! Could you elaborate on this last point though? I'm not quite certain how to interpret it.

Yes, Aalya, thank you. A stupendously appropriate example.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Play nice, and have fun

'kay boss, er dear, errr dad, errrr bro....oh that is right you are merely a babbler like me....

having said that, hope you have a good holiday.

Brilliant post(s), Aalya.  Simple, eloquent, forceful--everything we need! Thanks for straying into the "other" side of rabble. Welcome, welcome to babble. Boy, (ha!) I sure hope you stick around.

Great posts Aalya.

I'm going to take off on this bit when I get time.

Aalya wrote:

For me, the most damaging aspect of this male domination (and by "male," I mean a specific kind of gendered male behaviour that, for lack of a better word, I'll keep calling "macho") is that we all start buying it, women too. We all start thinking we've got to be rough and tough, and "high profile" and adversarial, and adhere to a certain shtick to be taken seriously. When I see that happening among progressives, it makes me sad.

Suffice to say for now, Babble absolutely reeks of this.

Actually, I find it to be great modeling. A reduced need to control, dictate and dominate might go a long way in addressing the macho dynamic you think this board stinks of. I appreciate his level of trust.

At the risk of doing precisely the same thing I am about to complain about.... it is not so much dominating by the sheer mass of verbiage posted (although there are elements of that) it is trying to dominate by essentially asserting that nothing has been validated until they have weighed in with their opinion (and such weighty opinions they are too).

Oh wait, Aalya has already observed this:

Aalya wrote:

A few weeks later, we were in another bar (sigh) and the coordinator says to me cheerfully "Well, I thought about what you said." "Oh?" "Yes. And I talked to X (guy) and X (guy) and X (guy) about it. And we think you're wrong!"

Sorry Aalya, my bad for feeling it was necessary to restate your point. I will try to do better in the future. bad kitty, bad

welcome to babble Sarah....

The 'photo' of Maysie tells it all.  She sticks her middle figure to all of us!!  The thought police!  I met a woman in California recently who was an absolute bully who wore a shirt that read "Kiss My Arse".  She works at Hospice in her city and I wondered if she wore the shirt to work.  It is the mind-set that we must watch for, not just the gender!  When I saw what Maysie uses to describe herself (the finger), I thought about the bully I met in California - "Kiss My Arse".  It suited her as Maysie's photo giving the finger suits her personality as well.  And.... I am a woman!!  I was on a thread where Cueball and others were challenging the thought-police of Rabble - alias - moderators and I see clearly that both men and women have challenged the Maysies and Alexes on Rabble.  The little people in their little pond.  Don't mess with their pond. It is there turf and they have very different standards for themselves and their buddies.  I will never come back to Rabble because, in my mind, I am enterering the fray and colluding with it.  There has been excellent discussion but it is hampered by those who do everything in their power to silence us when what we say is true.  I had thought better of Rabble but I am new to it and have more to do with my time than challenge the dull-minded and bullies.  I am happy to see, however, that some people do speak up and will not be silenced!  I move on to avenues that seek true exchange in the hope of coming to understanding critical matters.  Someone mentioned Noam Chomsky.  He would not belittle himself by arguing with the thought-police on Rabble which I have had to do.  On a feminist forum to boot. Obviously, feminist in name only. I have had more respect shown to me by some of the astute and caring men who have shared their important voices on various threads. Bullies of everywhere and they can be both men or women!  For those who have shown respect by adding your voices in the direction of elucidating facts and exposing the distortions - I thank you.  M. Spector is certainly one of those people.  I hope the rest of you know who you are and may you never be silenced.

And there I go, machismo, sorry folks.

I cannot believe that M. Spector is getting kudos as a counterpoint to bullying and male domination! Oh brave new world!

b star, that's part in jest, and part in reference your only recent exposure to babble culture. I hope you will take an ally's advice (and I mean remind, not me, although I hope you'll consider me an ally as well) and understand that Maysie has dedicated years to exposing male, white and heterosexual privilege as it runs rampant in these forums. The fact that babble is as "enlightened" as it is (and I use that word firmly tongue-in-cheek) is due in no small part to her vigilance. I understand how the way these discussions can polarize debates sometimes occludes dynamics like that, but I hope you'll reconsider your characterization of Maysie. She has fought tooth and nail against oppression and marginalization for as long as I've known her, and for decades longer than that.

I don't expect to convince you--why should I?--but whatever community, solidarity and feminist character exists on babble, the same character, I hope, that made you believe it worth your while to come here and spend breath at all, is here at all because of babblers like Maysie. It's wonderful--beyond words--to have two new, strong feminist women--so strong--here on babble, and conflict, discord, dissonance can only make us stronger but I sincerely urge you to take a fresh look at the positives that brought you here. I don't think you'll find a feminist on babble that won't agree Maysie lives in those positives. Peace.

b star makes valid points. The moderator she's referring to has been acting as a bully. Other moderators, e.g. catchfire, act professionally.  Just saying it as I see it.

I hope b star doesn't leave because she doesn't seem like one of those mindless provocatuers who keep popping up with new ID's.  Rabble needs more people with genuine contribution who add to the discussion.

In this thread, of all threads, the female of colour who moderates is smeared, then called a bully and unprofessional. Please, spare me.

This is fucking gobsmackingly astonishing.

"Just saying it as I see it."

b star wrote:

The 'photo' of Maysie tells it all.  She sticks her middle figure to all of us!!  The thought police!  I met a woman in California recently who was an absolute bully who wore a shirt that read "Kiss My Arse".  She works at Hospice in her city and I wondered if she wore the shirt to work.  It is the mind-set that we must watch for, not just the gender!  When I saw what Maysie uses to describe herself (the finger), I thought about the bully I met in California - "Kiss My Arse".  It suited her as Maysie's photo giving the finger suits her personality as well.  And.... I am a woman!!  I was on a thread where Cueball and others were challenging the thought-police of Rabble - alias - moderators and I see clearly that both men and women have challenged the Maysies and Alexes on Rabble.  The little people in their little pond.  Don't mess with their pond. It is there turf and they have very different standards for themselves and their buddies.  I will never come back to Rabble because, in my mind, I am enterering the fray and colluding with it.  There has been excellent discussion but it is hampered by those who do everything in their power to silence us when what we say is true.  I had thought better of Rabble but I am new to it and have more to do with my time than challenge the dull-minded and bullies.  I am happy to see, however, that some people do speak up and will not be silenced!  I move on to avenues that seek true exchange in the hope of coming to understanding critical matters.  Someone mentioned Noam Chomsky.  He would not belittle himself by arguing with the thought-police on Rabble which I have had to do.  On a feminist forum to boot. Obviously, feminist in name only. I have had more respect shown to me by some of the astute and caring men who have shared their important voices on various threads. Bullies of everywhere and they can be both men or women!  For those who have shown respect by adding your voices in the direction of elucidating facts and exposing the distortions - I thank you.  M. Spector is certainly one of those people.  I hope the rest of you know who you are and may you never be silenced.

I see that my name has been mentioned. Just want to say that I thoroughly support both Maysie and Catchfire, even though I don't necessarily agree with them on all things. I am not going to get into the the issue of comparing moderators, but I will say we are very lucky to have someone like Maysie around who moderates from her perspective, and does so openly and honestly. Even when she was not a moderator she alone has taught me many things, added many linkes to content that would not necssarily find its way to the board otherwise and given me many new perspectives on how to see the world, and this has been valuable to me.

Recently, there have been some decisions made by the editorial board, which I don't think the board moderators are comfortable with, and as such are put in a difficult position of enforcing some things they don't necessarily support. This causes a dilema.

I think you should stick around and try and be open to what is being said. I wouldn't call the moderators here "thought police", though I will always challenge things I disagree with.

 It's not a secret that there are paid posters who swamp internet forums and blogs.  The bit about recruiting internet posters for certain causes has been reported by main stream news agencies, and some here on babble have talked about it.

 I don't pay much attention to a person's style in writing. I care more about content and its effectiveness. The same applies to moderators.

 Some moderators are.. let's say, more aggressive than others. I have no problem with that as long as in the end they were effective.  And by that I mean effective in protecting the babble forums from the invasion of the paid posters who have invaded just about every other portal on the internet with the main purpose of dominating or ruining discussion topics their bosses don't like.

 Now if an aggressive moderator turns off good posters with valuable contributions and at the same is not being effective in protecting babble from shills, is this good?  Remember that a sensitive genuine poster gets offended by aggressive language from a moderator while a paid poster could care less. They are here on a mission and not really to discuss and share ideas. If they are banned, they will come right back with a new ID.  While the loss of a genuine poster is likely forever. 

Thus exudes privilege. Exhibit A. Thank you for the demonstration.

Edited to add: re: cruisin_turtle's contribution.

Aalya wrote:

Timebandit wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

 

Since I'm posting again, I thought of another point - the tendency to focus on facts, points, principles, ultimatums and other absolute things, instead of listening to others' perspectives and feelings, and acknowledging that a situation might be nuanced.

Not to say we should ignore facts, but they often do not tell the whole story. Again the stereotypical (but often true) tendency of some men to ask what you are doing, and women to ask how you are doing.

That last line is essentialist claptrap.  There are days where I would cheerfully chew my own arm off to get out of a girlie conversation on "feeeeeeeeelings...."

Bring on the facts and principles, please.

Well, yes. I experience the same irritation. But I have to stop and ask myself: is my irritation at "girlie" stuff like "feeeeelings" socially derived and inflected by sexist attitudes about which gender gets to do what? Who classifies "feelings" as "girlie" and sneers at men who express them (New Age Sensitive Guys, anyone?)? Why do we need to separate "facts" and "principles" from "feeeeeelings" anyway? Surely, our indignation and outrage at social injustice, the motors of organization, activism and protest, are "feeeeeelings," are they not? They have everything to do with facts and principles. And nothing makes my eyes glaze over faster than a group of Activist Bots who are deadly in earnest about everything, with no time to laugh, cry, dance, vent and just plain be sad and pissed off. They know everything about "the movement" and nothing about moving.

Why do we venerate certain types of social justice work, certain types of activism, and sneer at, trivialize and dismiss others? Too many times have I heard macho activists deride others for not conforming to a certain model of what is considered brave, principled and worthy of emulation. In the meantime, the women filling in endless Excel sheets or making phone call after phone call, or talking a group of skittish people back into participation in a group they just got alienated from, thanks to the jeers and bravado of Activist Tigger (TM), get no credit.

Talking about "feeeeelings" as you so scornfully put it, is damn hard work when it is sincere and part of building social movements. It should not be derided and dismissed as a (false) binary opposition to "facts."

Ah, but where it becomes stereotypically "girlie" is where it's all about the feelings and less about what we're all going to do about it.  It doesn't need to be macho or agressive action, but not passive.  I sometimes find that the sharing is an end in itself, and it bores me to tears. 

I don't think women do, actually, have a natural proclivity for it, either.  Some women are very good at dealing with the emotional sharing and so are some men.  Others, not so much.

cruisin_turtle wrote:

b star makes valid points.

She, like you, are formulating first impressions that are not even close to being accurate, in this instance. However, yours comes from a lense that is decidedly patriarchial (will address this down the post a bit) and thus you are compelled to put your 2 cents in, even though you know little about board dynamics and even less about feminism.

Quote:

The moderator she's referring to has been acting as a bully.

No actually she has not, and that you think so illuminates quite clearly the extreme nature of your male privilege perceptions.

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Other moderators, e.g. catchfire, act professionally. 

Even greater testimony as to the privilege here that men enjoy. So much so, that apparently some want to extend it further by encouraging more male dominence, as apparently it is not considered by you to be bullying".

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Just saying it as I see it.

Yes....well....this kinda sums  it all up, now doesn't it. Hopefully you will learn, to see a more unbiased vision, but I have my doubts.

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I hope b star doesn't leave because she doesn't seem like one of those mindless provocatuers who keep popping up with new ID's. 

This is an interesting commentary given how new you are here, yourself.

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Rabble needs more people with genuine contribution who add to the discussion.

what some perceive as genuine, is actually far from true reality upon most occasions. Moreover, your oblique slam of  rabble/babblers has been noted. But  perhaps one should look at ones self before casting stones.

Sineed wrote:

As a survivor of a violent attack, I find defence of violent tactics very alienating, both on a personal level, and on a gender level. 

As a survivor of a violent attack, (actually more than 1) I find those here who are willing to pander to the violence inflicted upon society by the corporate elite and their paid lackeys, to be alienating, both on a personal level, and on a gender level..

as far as i am concerned, women who support corporate tyranny, and police brutality, are bolstering patriarchy, and I said nothing at all about "diversity of tactics", actually, so do stop putting words in my mouth.