an opinion on the census

i like the census. it gives me something to do once in a while.

The date that cabbie joined is a dead giveaway that this individual is from the Conservative Resource Group here looking for ammo on the next issue after arts funding, cutting the subsidy, prorogation, and changing the lyrics to the national anthem that they've allowed themselves to trip over.

Do not feed the blue beast.

It's funny how the northern Teabaggers get all upset about the shadowy Govment collecting rather benign stats about them at the same time not minding when the real government violates people's civil rights on a grand scale for all to see.

Have long known that the census is how they allot money for social programs, education and health care. And transfer payments to the provinces.

The money alloted, to everyone, even Indigenous communities, is based on population densities.

It was actually a column by the editorial page editor in the Vancouver Province.  I don't think they keep their stuff online very long, but in any event it was legit, and one of only two public endorsements of the government's position ... the other one being Joan Crockatt of the Calgary Herald in her Twitter feed.  Even the Ed Board of the National Post came out with an editorial tonight slamming the government's census decision.  Honestly, newsrooms would die for copy without all those studies.

The businesses and social agencies and researchers gain access to the aggregate data, scrubbed of any personally identifying information.  Statistics Canada is so careful not to identify individuals that they won't even give out aggregate data if the number of cases is so low that it could even possibly identify the individuals.

You are also mixing up the Access to Information parts of that legislation with the Privacy parts.  Individuals' information (and companies' for that matter) cannot be given out by the government.  But you can request your own, if you make a request under the Privacy Act.  I've never done it, but I understand it's quite an interesting process.

On the other hand, I never give out my postal code to companies when I buy things.  I do trust Statistics Canada, though, which is internationally recognized as the very best statistical agency in the world (although not for long, at this rate ...)

All the technological advances in the world aren't worth a fig if you don't have good, reliable data, though.  It's the knowledge in the knowledge economy, and one of the very few things people from right across the spectrum can agree on, as we've seen this week (which has been really and truly remarkable, actually) ... from the National Post to the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternative, from the Bankers to the Canadian Labour Congress.

The front-line agencies couldn't possibly afford to replicate these datasets.  They do collect their own data, but they weight it against census data to make sure it's properly representative, or to add more depth for analysis.

Please give this another thought, Frmsldr.  Building up all these conspiracy theories to get rid of the census is one of the big issues of the Tea Party movement in the states right now, and has unfortunately crept across our border.  We have got to maintain our dataset for comparisons over time, in order to make sure that down the road we can return to making policy decisions based on good evidence, and not based on right-wing whack job conspiracy theories of the moment.

hmmm.....it is also how we get our Senators....

And the only information businesses get, is the same information anyone can get including us here...

and census have been around for at least 2000 years so I am not sure where/what I should be running away fro. I use census information all the time, and really do not see an issue.

Well, the government is just about to spend 65 billion on new fighter jets, from Lockheed Martin....now there is something I can get on board with fighting against.

'kay got the numbers wrong, thought it was 65 billion,  not 65 jets.

But I agree if it is 18 billion, we can double that, at least, and what do we need them for again?

I am convinced that this orgy of military spending is being done on now on purpose to get it out of the way before the slash and burn comes in for everything else.

Is there a single source for all the defence spending announcements? We keep hearing of new major ones every few weeks and they must be adding up?

ETA-Thorin Bane is asking for a list in another thread-- we need to have a list of what the Cons have announced over the last couple years.

Please give this another thought, Frmsldr.  Building up all these conspiracy theories to get rid of the census is one of the big issues of the Tea Party movement in the states right now, and has unfortunately crept across our border.  We have got to maintain our dataset for comparisons over time, in order to make sure that down the road we can return to making policy decisions based on good evidence, and not based on right-wing whack job conspiracy theories of the moment.

It's funny, I agree with you again, Ottawaobserver, but at the same time I have lots of sympathy for Frmsldr's position.

Thing is Frmsldr, if we ever actually got a government that wanted to make decisions ( anti-progressive or progressive, doesn't matter) based on reality, then we had better have some real data for them to base it on.

One of the funniest bits in Joseph Heller's "Catch 22"  was when Yosarian invented a rumour about the Germans having a "Lepage gun" that was going to "glue them to the sky".    Days later, the rumour came back around to Yosarian, and he fainted in terror.

We all know Harper's anti progressives have a certain dogma that can only be supported by the absence of facts.   That's what they are against: Facts.   If they haven't already, they will one day start believing all the missinformation and take absence of evidence as evidence of absence, and end up scaring themselves into some brainless decision.

If it was really protecting people from an over reaching government that wants to invade our privacy, I think we'd be hearing from our anti progressive friends more often, on many other subjects.  But then crypto fascists have always had a narcisistic take on freedom and liberty.

On a lighter note, I always give a postal code when asked by a retailer.

Thanks OO. I'll have a look at that.  I forgot my "get back on track" emoticon.

In order to have facts and useful information for government to make rational policies there are two aspects involved:

1. It's not necessary to take it down to the individual level,

2. The government can have all the (useful and relevant information) in the world but will they use it?

Doctors and health care workers have predominantly argued for universal access to (a reasonable) quality of health care and against a two-tier (introducing "free market") health care system.

Criminologists have argued that the rate of crime in Canada (and the U.S.A.) has gone down for the past decade.

This information didn't come from no census done at the level of the individual private citizen(s).

What does the Harper administration do?

It spends money on the most expensive things governments can throw money at: war and defense budgets and on a ballooning 'police state' prison system at the detriment to child care, social services, health care, and pensions, etc.

Of all the departments, all of them got cuts to their 2010 budgets except the Defense Department - they got a 2% increase over last year's budget. These new fighters are part of the $490 billion worth of contracts with the arms industry over a 20 year period the Harper administration has locked us into. What about Corrections Canada? The new 'get tough on crime' bills and legislation are an indication. It's only the start.

It spends money on the most expensive things governments can throw money at: war and defense budgets and on a ballooning 'police state' prison system at the detriment to child care, social services, health care, and pensions, etc.

Which is all part of the "Starve the Beast" plan, where government runs up a deficit, through tax cuts and spending, then turns around and slashes spending on human infrastructure.

That's something we'll have to deal with one way or another.  I would suggest census data will help us in that fight, and that's one of the reasons Harper wants to shitcan the census.

Mind you, there will always be wierd and inapropriate questions on a census form, and I have no problem complaining about those individual items.

Hey, Tommy, since I started filling out questionnaires claiming I was an MD with an income of $200,000 p.a. I get a much better class of junk mail and invitations to time-share seminars without any obligation and free WINE and !CHEESE!. Of course invitations aren't actually addressed to me but to my dear departed cat Arthur F-P, MD FRCCS.

He he.  I get survey calls from companies the odd time.   I think it's the height of chutzpah that they expect me to spend my time to give them information they are going to turn around and make money with.   

On the coroporate end, it's time we did invest the time to complete such surveys with the most incorrect information as possible.  

And no, I don't use "points cards" or "air miles".

Any comments on Sandra Finley and her fight with StatsCan over her refusal to fill out the 2006 form? There's some question as to whether her case will go forward or not in Sept now that the Tories have nixed the mandatory requirement. Some have argued that the Tories made the change in advance of her case because they do not want to be seen beating up a 60+ year old activist in court or that the court might rule against the government on Charter grounds.. Neither of these arguments make much sense as clearly  the Tories have not given that much thought to this issue and the goverment has no problem letting kids rot in foreign jails so why would a grandmother matter? I can't think what Charter issues might be raised so I doubt that would be it.

Finley's principle objection is not the mandatory nature of the census but Lockheed-Martin's involvement with the data. The American company has been involved with the census since 2001 and the possibility of the US government demanding access to the data under the Patriot Act (assuming Lockheed-Martin hasn't just turned the data over wholesale anyway).

Finally, does anyone know of a specific government program or decision that has been based on the long-form census data or an example of where the data has improved government programs?

In a related story, the Conservative Party of Canada announced today that they would no longer conduct intrusive public opinion surveys during election campaigns, and instead rely solely on voluntary internet polls.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

This particular policy is not just an attack on democracy-- it is an all out assault on the tools of governance.

I think we're getting too 'wrapped around the axle' over census surveys (at the level of the individual) providing government with the tools of governance.

As I explained above, they are unnecessary and redundant because various government departments and agencies already have this information.

These individual level census surveys are an affront to personal privacy and individual (civil) liberties. As such, they are antidemocratic.

Don't look now, but 'Big Brother' is watching you.

If we're not careful, these census surveys will entrap us in a Kafka-esque bureaucratic distopia.

By the way, anyone read any good George Orwell or Franz Kafka lately?

The stats can data is not even linked to the outside world. There is something to be said about living in a society and having civic responsibilities.

I don't want the elite to pretend to speak FOR ME, so having the census filled out by all makes more sense. 30% forms and your dog can vote too. Not good policy.

If you think the real spy agencies don't already know what you are doing, you are wrong. Taking away the few tools beauracrats have to make sound decisions will lead to a bigger disaster that 'those that watch' will not be effected by anyway.

I can't see posting here being a big deal-- I think there is solid power to the capitalist system and that we have not come up with any credible threats to it. Our speculation and opinion aside, what useful information would they have from what we right? It isn't as if they listen to us or care what we think. If someone came on here saying they were going to do some direct action I suppose that would get attention but otherwise I think we would bore them with stuff they don't care about.

Canada's chief statistician took an angst-ridden time out Wednesday to contemplate his future and the position of his agency, the latest twist in the crisis over the Conservative government's decision to scrub the mandatory long-form census.

Good. I hope he does resign over this.

It's now offiicial

Munir A. Sheikh:

"I want to take this opportunity to comment on a technical statistical issue which has become the subject of media discussion. This relates to the question of whether a voluntary survey can become a substitute for a mandatory census.

 

It can not."

ottawaobserver wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

various government departments and agencies already have this information

I'm sorry Frmrsldr, but to be blunt, you simply do not know what you're talking about there.  No-one has a dataset that big, of that quality, and so useful for so many different purposes.  It could not be collected by anyone else, anything less that was collected privately would not be of as high a quality, would not be historically comparable to earlier censuses, and would never be protected in terms of privacy as well as the StatsCan long-form census dataset.

Unless you can specify by name the datasets those other departments and agencies supposedly already have, it will only prove that you're pulling that statement completely out of thin air.

Again, brother, I respect some of the opinions you're presenting here, but those facts are dead wrong.

1. When one is born (for most people it's in a hospital) the doctor asks for a name. He fills an official document that is sent to the government.

2. When one is enrolled in a public school (most people are), an official document is filled out for the school district which is later sent to the provincial government.

3. When one applies for a social security insurance number, the government gets your private info.

4. When one applies for and takes the driver's license test, that information goes to the provincial government.

5. When one gets a job and later has to file income taxes - that's a major source of information for the federal government.

6. When one falls ill, has a medical condition or an accident and sees a doctor and is given prescription drugs, or spends time in a hospital or clinic for medical treatment or surgery, there are medical records that are kept by the hospital and the provincial health ministry.

7. When one buys a car and auto insurance, that information is collected by the provincial government.

8. When one buys a home and pays fire insurance on it, that information is kept by the provincial government.

9. When one applies for Employment Insurance, social assistance and welfare, the government gets your information.

10. If one runs foul of the law and has a record - too easy for the government to access this (anonymous) information to get stats on the rate of crime etc., in Canada.

11. When one contributes to, then collects a federally funded pension, the government has that personal information.

12. When one dies, the provincial coroner performs a standard duty and the government gets a report. It's a matter of official public notification when one is deceased.

Ever since the Industrial Revolution of the 19th Century, we in the Western world have lived in a Kafka-esque "bureaucrazy" stats freak dystopia.

I never said this information was all collected and/or deposited in one central location. I don't think that's an issue. As I've said above, if the feds want stats on something, they can make FOIA requests to the appropriate agency, department etc., just like journalists and researchers do.

Up until the 1980s, all this information was on paper and in files in all these different physical locations among agencies and departments, etc.

With the advent of the computer and the internet it's now easier than ever for the feds (or computer hackers, for that matter) to access this information.

Again, with computers and the internet and intranet, even though these databases are still ('physically') 'all over the place', they are virtually in a central location.

I'm opposed to the census having all this information (in a central location) because it makes it too easy for the feds to access the original raw data. In Canada, the census information is collected by a private American owned company. I know this because I know someone who worked for that company during the last census.

You can have all the stats and census data in the world, but what does it matter if the government chooses to ignore it or says it is incorrect as in the case of the Harper administation concerning the rate of crime in Canada?

Also, do you think these Nixonian "the means are always just if the end is 'just' - the ends are 'just' because we say they are", Harper administration creeps are going to have any qualms about violating the laws and Constitution when it comes to abusing the census data to get personal information on private citizens if they are suspected of being 'terrorists' or 'criminals', etc? Hell no. Herr Harper can pull the same stunt he did over Torturegate: This information is classified because we are protecting the security of the nation.

This is a helpful guide to the questions on the long form and the reasons they're asked:

http://datalibre.ca/2010/07/19/uses-of-census-long-form-data-question-ju...

Frmrsldr wrote:

thorin_bane wrote:

... allowing stats can to know you have 2 toilets in your house.

Pardon me if this is a 'dense' question, but what the hell do they need to know how many toilets 'citizen X' has?

If they absolutely must have this information, they can get it from the municipalities. They don't have to bother John and Jane Public over this. Again, I think it's loyalty and willingness to cooperate test.

Thats the point municipalities don't know. Like OO mentioned its whole point is to cross reference. Just because you live in a 2 bathroom home(or more) doesn't indicate income level, religion, education. ETC.

For example. When they have a stat like Middle income earners (40,000-65,000) live in approx 1100 square feet and average 1.6 baths with an education level of "some college" its to show what a college eduction can provide for would be students in Canada, this can be tabulated against  say sweden where it may be 50-75 thousand and live in a 1200 sq ft1.9 bathroom home(not real figures just as an example)

This could indicate better eduction for that level, better support structures in the country, but it has to be cross indexed againt other factors. Test score at age levels for example. Perhaps a grade 11 student in swedan score 9% higher on standardized math tests.(to get away from language discrepancies) If you don't have that information to look at how do you know what is going on relartive from country to country, province ot province, city to city or ward to ward? No way of knowing

Now if it becomes voluntary, those that are working 2 jobs at min wage don't bother to fill it out, not having the time. The new middle income earners are 65,000-90,000 live in 1600sq ft homes with 2.5 bathrooms. Meanwhile more people slip farther down the economic scale.  They then set policy as to what an average family basket should be according to "middle income earned" Meanwhile the true average is some 20,000 less. Meaning bad policy.

When I am designing campaigns for Roleplaying Games, You often generate planets or at least countries to set as a backdrop for the story. Usually this involves giving stats like the ones asked in the census. This gives the game a realistic feel.

Althea has a population of 300,000 with their main city Torath being the hub of trade situated in the middle of the county along a river route to the sea. Torath has 35,000 people with 9 guilds and a poor district of some 10,000 souls. They are the financial and trade capital of the entire region with little manufactured goods outside of silks woven from the spiders of Foxglove Forest. Most other goods are imported from neighbouring states. Slavery is outlawed but exists in the from of serfs paying tithes to the local magister, The magister in turn provides a retenue of 20 knights and 200 men at arms to defend against invaders. The Monarchy is working on developing an aqueduct system by bringing in engineers from far off Aquafina. If all goes well Torath will be able to house and feed an additional 20,000 people.

See that is off the top of my head, We need stats for all kinds of thing and you need to know how they correlate to each other. Even for something as simple as an RPG. I need to know this if my players ask. I can fudge it and make up whatever I want(its my world afterall) or tell the players Ill get that information after I have fleshed out the world a little more. A real government shouldn't be making things up on the fly, or throwing out years and years of data by changing the format completely. They are not gods in a make believe world, and the people they effect aren't imaginary peasants(though they may think of us that way).

ottawaobserver wrote:

Those are disparate datasets that exist across multiple levels of government, and would be very difficult to link.  They also don't give a single-point-in-time picture.

As I've argued, that's a good thing as it reduces the likelihood of the government abusing the data.

ottawaobserver wrote:

Also, the IT project involved to ever consolidate all that information would be an accident waiting to happen if you've had any exposure to government IT projects.  It's very clear that you don't have an understanding of the workings and limitations of databases from your characterization of how "easy" it all is.  Never mind that the data would not be able to be subject to other research techniques for ensuring the dataset is valid and clean, and represents a single point in time.

 

Yes, but the handling of personal data within the government is governed by the Privacy Act, and in this case by the Statistics Act as well.  People are so scrupulous about applying those provisions that it slows down work on anything to a crawl, and they won't give out any stats on anything where the number of cases is so small it would risk identifying who those individuals are.

... But I am telling you that no politician gets access to raw census data.  Period.  Saying anything to the contrary is promoting a conspiracy theory for which there is no evidence whatsoever in Canada...

Even CSIS is not allowed to gain access to Census data by law.

I'm sorry, but I don't share your confidence. I'm not convinced of the fact that Herr Harper doesn't have ex-con hackers who owe the feds favors in his employ and that this administration wouldn't flaunt/disregard/ignore/break the laws and our Constitution.

ottawaobserver wrote:

There is a difference between information that is classified for national security, information that is classified because it is advice to Cabinet, information that is protected because it is confidential information about a person or business...

I know that. That's not my argument. My argument about "national security" is a post de facto blanket muzzle order by the government should any public questions arise about the government illegally obtaining personal information from the census.