Are Canadian law makers less sentient than pigs?

Ironically, it is being this out-of-touch that is imperiling human survival as well.

I just stepped outside in downtown Vancouver and there is a foul smell in the air.  An ILWU electrician has told me it is a cattle ship from Australia.  The live cattle will then be moved onto trucks and shipped to Alberta (?) for slaughter.  How does that make an economic, ecological sense.

been talking this morning to several people about the plight of food animals in Canada and the show last night.

Frankly, I think it will take very little effort by Canadians who care, to change things around and quickly, they just need to be told how to go about it...

The plight of the  pigs and their rocking their heads back and forth to self-sooth prompted strong emotion in some women I know.

Pork will be coming off of their meal menu, they had absolutely no idea such a thing was allowed in Canada.

The other day I was walking my dog and I heard (within a couple of blocks) two dogs cry with physical and emotional pain as their humans hit them (for barking). I felt sick. I wanted to take some actions it would be unwise to describe on the internet. (I do not plan to do these things - let me make that point for the security and police forces.) It's not illegal to hit your dog so there's not much I can do. (I once saw a man punch his dog in the face for some fault the dog apparently committed in playing frisbee.) 

As much as enjoy I digs at the prevailing religion(s), I am going to have to disagree with you MM. It doesn't take an extensive background in either anthropology or history to come up with examples of peoples whose attitudes towards animals are just as terrible as those who have been exposed to the dubious benefits of the prevailing religion(s). Forcing animals to fight for the amusement of people watching (as an example) was widespread well before Christian missionaries intruded on the people in question (indeed, these "sports" usually pre-date Christianity itself). Certain religious beliefs probably exacerbate the tendency towards such callousness and cruelty, but I don't agree that they are the root cause.

I think you would be well served to employ Sociology 101 in creating an explanatory model of peoples relationships to animals. While I haven't researched it exhaustively, I am hard pressed to find an example of hunter-gatherer societies demonstrating callous cruelty towards animals (though, by definition, they will kill them for food), nor can I easily find examples of the same amongst pastoralists. I think you have to move on to agriculturalist societies (and their urban offshots and industrial successors) before you find abusive practices towards animals coming to the fore. While both pastoralists and hunter-gatherers exploit animals as resources, they also typically have a respectful attitude (often expressed in religious terms) towards the animals they herd/hunt.

bagkitty wrote:

I think you would be well served to employ Sociology 101 in creating an explanatory model of peoples relationships to animals. While I haven't researched it exhaustively, I am hard pressed to find an example of hunter-gatherer societies demonstrating callous cruelty towards animals (though, by definition, they will kill them for food), nor can I easily find examples of the same amongst pastoralists. I think you have to move on to agriculturalist societies (and their urban offshots and industrial successors) before you find abusive practices towards animals coming to the fore. While both pastoralists and hunter-gatherers exploit animals as resources, they also typically have a respectful attitude (often expressed in religious terms) towards the animals they herd/hunt.

I agree with this. I have no ethical problem with hunting for food. Predation is part of the natural order on this planet, and probably everywhere else. Indeed, we humans, through most of our pre-history, were apparently as often prey as predators. As long as we viewed ourselves as part of the natural order, no different in principle than any other animal, this was in my view healthy and ethical.

My point was that this respect for the complex ecology of which we are a part has been undermined by many religious beliefs which set humans above the rest of creation. In the real world of today, such religions are overwhelmingly the "Abrahamic" ones, which are based on the bible: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Others have also been as guilty, but not as influential. A few modern religions, such as Buddhism, have insisted that all sentient beings are entitled to consideration and respect, but I agree with you that these are the minority.

In any event, in our own society, I think it is clearly the case that Christian beliefs are used to assuage the consciences of most people to the immense cruelty associated with the meat production industry. My point really doesn't go much further than that.

We are all responsible. Find any thread on babble discussing industrial agriculture and you will find the progressive defenders who cite the need to keep food cheap. And we must trash our earth to keep energy cheap. And we must poison our bodies to keep stuff cheap. And we must beat and jail people to keep labour cheap. Let's hope our collective funeral is cheap.

lonewolfbunn wrote:

Since religion entered into this discussion I must ask if anyone has much knowledge of halal and/or cosher meat.

I know they are killed relatively humanely... but are they also raised and transported that way?

If so, personally I will spend the little extra money necessary to ensure I am not supporting what I consider pure evil.

There are a few halal shops around my city with reasonable prices.

I know some vegetarian sites are very negative about ritual slaughter. The suggestion is that it is cruel, i.e., not "relatively humane" in the present context, though that was almost certainly the original intention. But I don't know the details. (They always seem to involve videos and I just can't take any more.) But if you google, you can find out about this. If I were a meat-eater, I'd investigate. (Actually, I'd probably just get my meat from a farmer I know and trust.)

milo204 wrote:

i don't think there's any way to "humanely" eat animals, any more than there is a humane way to eat humans.  Not to mention meat is absolutely horrible for the environment and overfishing is going to kill the oceans before climate change will.

eating animals because otherwise you will starve is one thing, but there really isn't any justification for eating them just cause we "like it".

It's kind of like racism, we do it because they are "them" and not "us", therefore their suffering isn't really on our radar.  

Well, I don't eat meat, even meat slaughtered "humanely" by inlaws. But there are degrees of cruelty. Some people believe that the greater and the more prolonged the fear and pain of the animal the better and more efficacious the meat: hanging, blowtorches, and other things are involved. (I'm talking about dogs. And I'm talking about a process that goes on for hours.) A quick cut to the throat or blow to the head would be better than that. (Note that I am not suggesting that the process of animal slaughter as it exists here is a matter of a "quick cut" or "blow". It's a long and horrific process.)

Meh, people will come around.  I'm a meat defender myself but milo204 and others have a lot of healthy stuff to teach us.

I'm willing to listen and I'll keep having my occasional steak medium rare.

Chicken is the thing for me.  Mostly chicken if I eat meat.

when pigs fly?

lonewolfbunn wrote:

For the record I have nothing against veganism. I know if everyone in the world lived off a diet of lentils, chick peas and beans the world's cropland could support 4 billion more people than we have now.  But that is not gonna happen in our lifetime.

 

Why not?

The meals my family ate last week were based on chick peas, lentils, and whatever grows in our back yard.  Such a diet isn't difficult, if you really want to do it.

Now that you've posted that...someone, somewhere will get the idea to release "Hotdog-Eating Crackhead Fights!" dvd's.

lonewolfbunn wrote:

Humans are carnivores.  Those that go against their instinct to eat meat end up skinny, pasty and weak

Pure bullshit.

milo204 wrote:

eating animals because otherwise you will starve is one thing, but there really isn't any justification for eating them just cause we "like it".

Very true milo204.  Surprising too how many people actually still believe (or want to believe) that meat is a necessary part of their diet and that they will somehow perish without it.  Although that is easier I suppose, than accepting that you are eating meat only because it is tastey and you like it and you don't want to go without :)