Hostile assumptions? Or just calling it like you see it?

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Thu, 2010-08-19 17:43

6079_Smith_W

Slumberjack wrote:

Insisting on a please and thank you atmosphere reminiscent of a sunday school outing is not necessarily the answer either.

That might be too much to bear, but I think I could suffer through it for a week or two, actually.

Another thing is the notion that we all have to agree on things. I don't want to start hauling out examples, but I don't think the end result of every discussion needs to be bringing everyone around to one point of view. Sure there are core values which most of us share, but there are far more things on which we do not all agree. The point should be to understand and learn from each others' position, not necessarily convincing others that yours is the absolute truth.

And for that matter, I have often learned some of the most important things about issues form people whom I completely disagree with.

Thu, 2010-08-19 18:09

#53

Refuge

Yiwah wrote:

I also want to add that part of the reason I can't let this go is that I was in an abusive relationship for 10 years, where the most bizarre suspicions about me were 'normal', and my words were constantly taken out of context and turned around. It was horrible, and confusing, and I'm still trying to figure out how the fuck it happened. So communication, for me, is not just an academic exercise. It's THE thing we need to work on as humans.

I can understand how accusations, especially when they are based on nothing more than your abusers need to keep his version of the world intact (the world where it is fine to violate you on a daily basis because of whatever story he has in his head), in an abusive environment link accusations and abuse so strongly they illicit the same response. Sometimes life has an excellent way of showing where we are stuck. The problem is that we can't change other people's behaviour. Only our response to it. I used to think that when my abuser faced justice that I would feel better. But I didn't. I felt better when I was able to undo the damage and think like a person who hadn't faced the abuse. It took a lot of practice and a lot of pain but I kept jumping back into situations where I would be accused and not abused with new coping skills before I was able to react in a way that was helpful to me and not hurtful.

Thu, 2010-08-19 18:19

#54

KenS

I think the seige mentality goes beyond whats going on in the big wide world.

Those with the more 'extreme politics' on the left- which isnt at all limited to self-identifying anarchists- have become more marginalized within the left. And increasingly. de facto do a LOT of the framing of their politics around what is wrong with the rest.

There is an old history to this. But I think it has spread.

This inevitably will fuel hostility all around.

Thu, 2010-08-19 18:20

#55

Cueball

I am glad that the question in the OP in no way reflects any kind of unspoken agenda regarding anything that I said, and is not in any way shape or form about me. The question is innocent, and void of any motive. It's just an abstract "point of interest" type question without background, or intent.

Thu, 2010-08-19 18:22

#56

kropotkin1951

Yiwah one of the things I have noticed about this board is that many people have had terrible life experiences to deal with. Many of us are survivors of abuse so I understand that you have built in defenses that are triggered by certain types of statements. I know I certainly do. I believe you are sharing some personal information in the hope it will lead to better understanding. I offer the following for that purpose. My first job was as a hard rock miner and none of my family had any post secondary education. Some do now and I provide the support my son who wants to go to university needs but when I look at my many nieces and nephews it seems only two of them are "making" it in our society and they are both great sales pr types and a third is making it in the arts but that is not financially making it. The rest of the generation below me are in dead end jobs with no viable path forward. I get very angry when I see what is becoming of my country and this a place for me to vent and I admit to being testy when people are apologists for the system that has left many in both of our families with little hope or promise for the future except as sales clerks at the local Tim's.

6079 thx for that it is indeed one of the problems. We all want so much to have our views validated that we often fail to agree to disagree and instead start to get snippy because we know our view is superior. I too have learnt many things on babble and have had my views altered by peoples posts in reaction to things I've said.

Thu, 2010-08-19 18:28

#57

Cueball

KenS wrote:
I think the seige mentality goes beyond whats going on in the big wide world. Those with the more 'extreme politics' on the left- which isnt at all limited to self-identifying anarchists- have become more marginalized within the left. And increasingly. de facto do a LOT of the framing of their politics around what is wrong with the rest. There is an old history to this. But I think it has spread. This inevitably will fuel hostility all around.

What are you talking about Ken? The "extreme" leftists haven't been marginalized in the left. The right has taken over the left wing organization and some of them even think that they are on the left, when in fact, they are just the right. I don't know what the fascination that center right, and right wingers have with identifying themselves as leftists is, but it's a pretty interesting phenomena.

I think its because even people on the right, like to be thought of as being 'nice' and being on "the left" is identified with "niceness".

Thu, 2010-08-19 18:29

#58

George Victor

kropotkin1951 wrote:

George Victor wrote:

I agree, Yiwah, that straight answers are in order. And by not succumbing to the overwhelming opposition to anything that Obama says and does, by running a thread showing the completely irrational nature of the opposition to him within the U.S. and hereabouts, I get this:

You call most of the posters on this board irrational and you think you deserve to be treated with anything but scorn. The response was of course inappropriate but it was your "completely irrational ... hereabouts" that started the nastiness. You throw stones all the time.

Thank you for providing a good example of what we should all try to avoid.

As I pointed out, you are given to saying that I'm libeling ALL, of US, and WE are abused. Nope, just a few, and if the shoe fits the few, they should respond by saying exactly how that is not true. The "us" and "we" trick is a device used by lawyers and populists to arouse a rallying cry against the offender, and you have it down to a science, demonstrated by your last sentence.

Thu, 2010-08-19 18:43

#59

absentia

KenS wrote:
I think the seige mentality goes beyond whats going on in the big wide world. Those with the more 'extreme politics' on the left- which isnt at all limited to self-identifying anarchists- have become more marginalized within the left. And increasingly. de facto do a LOT of the framing of their politics around what is wrong with the rest. There is an old history to this. But I think it has spread. This inevitably will fuel hostility all around.

You could be onto something there. Maybe not only with anarchists, but activists of every stripe - that is to say, each stripe, as a distinct and somewhat defensive unit. And then moderate socialist-leaners feel trapped in a mind-set that is scorned by the more extreme, and vilified by the mainstream. Special interest groups, likewise. Regional patriots. Ethnic minorities. Feminists. Trade unionists (Well, i can't help hir handle. Nothing personal from here, honest.) It seems as if we become identified with - and identify ourselves with - smaller and smaller clans, sniping at one another across wider and wider divides.

This is not good, you know.

Thu, 2010-08-19 19:03

#60

kropotkin1951

George Victor wrote:

The "us" and "we" trick is a device used by lawyers and populists to arouse a rallying cry against the offender, and you have it down to a science, demonstrated by your last sentence.

Quote:

Thank you for providing a good example of what we should all try to avoid.

You see this is a good example of reading for intent not content. The "we" includes you and contains no hint of excluding you. In fact when I wrote it the "we" was intended to mean all babblers and that includes you. In response to a non-aggressive comment you reacted with a personal attack broadened with a wide paint brush. I have perfected a device used by "lawyers and populists." Nice turn of phrase. Any other categories of potential readers of this thread you would like to insult or are you sticking to me, lawyers and populists?

Thu, 2010-08-19 19:19

#61

Cueball

I move this thread be closed.

Thu, 2010-08-19 19:19

#62

E.Tamaran

Leave it open. Yiwah shouldn't have her thread closed just because someone is getting upset over diverse opinions. Sorry cueball, that's not a slam against you. I just think the thread should follow its own course.

Thu, 2010-08-19 19:21

#63

George Victor

As Ken S. said, you "misconstrue what people have said...egregiously." kropotkin.

Thu, 2010-08-19 19:31

#64

KenS

Thu, 2010-08-19 19:32

#65

KenS

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I remembered something you had posted Yiwah that I thought was very applicable to why I come here and why I refuse to be marginalized because of my "extreme" politics. I would request that you try treating all of us with the respect that ET gets from you and deserves and maybe we can make this board a better place.

I have been testy since the BB threads where I felt like I was being deliberately targeted as a voice to be silenced.

I also wonder what threads you are referring to.

But I have seen some that included testy interaction between you and Yiwah, even if they arent the ones you are talking about.

You point to E Tam being cut slack about his 'extreme politics'. And ask for the same.

From what I remember, the testiness with you comes not from the content of what you say. With E Tam the tension, or potential tension, or deferred tension is definitely with the content of his ideas.

With you, its your manner of argumentation.

I dont think I've ever seen E. Tam misrepresent what people have said. You do it egregiously. [Though I think there is more poison around here from people who do it less directly.]

For that matter, I cant remember E. Tam using opposition to what others have said as the de facto framing of his position. He just states his case. Which is a refreshing change around here.

Thu, 2010-08-19 20:19

#66

absentia

It's even worse. What the F(orces)O(f)E(vil) have done is to create an atmosphere wherein intelligent communication is extremely difficult. They have done this through intensive, pervasive propaganda, and the perversion of language. Orwell knew whereof he wrote.

The first is not as obvious as we might think. Quite often, we (No, i'm not putting myself forward as spokesperson for the polity or the babblebody or anything like that - just talking about humans in general, and feel free to consider yourself an exception.) don't even realize that we've fallen into the patterns of thought to which we have been exposed. We may think along the lines of: "If someone disagrees with my obviously correct analysis (or political stance, or the side i've taken) then that person is at least aiding and comforting the enemy, if not hemself the enemy." without even realizing that we're doing it. We have been living so long in an atmosphere of armed camps - many alienated factions - and under the shadow of hostility, threat, anxiety, violence, that we can't seem to think in anything but "us" and "them" terms - only the uses and thems are constantly shifting and rarely defined.

The second is probably the more destructive. Whatever each citizen's opinion is of the government's (or another country's, or Wall Street's, or the Black Bloc's) actions may be, that citizen has only the same vocabulary to express hir opinion as that used by the CBC. And the words are all suspect. Do you know what i mean? "Migrant" and "immigrant" and "refugee" are not, interchangeable meanings. When someone has been abducted to a country, they cannot be "deported", only released. "Negative growth" cannot take place, and it is not possible to have "three times less" of something today than we had yesterday. Yet we - those of us who are not professional or gifted wordsmiths - are stuck with this poisoned quicksand of a vocabulary, both of words and of concepts. It's so difficult to be sure of what we ourselves mean that we are forever questioning what someone else could possibly mean.

Thu, 2010-08-19 20:23

#67

Yiwah

Slumberjack wrote:

Yiwah wrote:
Sure, people can be exasperated, but does it really have to come here? This isn't the comment section of the cbc. We aren't up against a legion of bigots. We really aren't. We don't need to act like we are.

Insisting on a please and thank you atmosphere reminiscent of a sunday school outing is not necessarily the answer either.

That's the last thing I'd ask for, it would drive me nuts...I'd get my ass booted on day one!

But a little respect goes a long way, even when you don't like the person you're going out of your way not to slag for no reason.

Or perhaps especially when.

It's not about enforced politeness. "Politeness" is often just fangs hidden behind smiles anyway.

Thu, 2010-08-19 20:27

#68

Yiwah

Refuge wrote:

I can understand how accusations, especially when they are based on nothing more than your abusers need to keep his version of the world intact (the world where it is fine to violate you on a daily basis because of whatever story he has in his head), in an abusive environment link accusations and abuse so strongly they illicit the same response. Sometimes life has an excellent way of showing where we are stuck. The problem is that we can't change other people's behaviour. Only our response to it. I used to think that when my abuser faced justice that I would feel better. But I didn't. I felt better when I was able to undo the damage and think like a person who hadn't faced the abuse. It took a lot of practice and a lot of pain but I kept jumping back into situations where I would be accused and not abused with new coping skills before I was able to react in a way that was helpful to me and not hurtful.

I feel that what helped it happen for so long was that I didn't really see how he was doing it. Because I would try to see it from his point of view, and he would convince me that the way I said something had really made him think 'x'. And because I understood he was suspicious and jealous and controlling, I could see how that made sense...and I would try to modify my behaviour and words to not trigger his suspicion and jealousy and controlling bullshit.

But I don't want to do that. I would like to be given the space to say what I mean, and if there is at all any confusion on the part of the person receiving it, I would really like the opportunity to clarify, rather than having assumptions made about me. I want to afford this same respect to others as well.

Thu, 2010-08-19 20:30

#69

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Yep, much ado about nothing but continue if that's your thing.

You could always just try and respond. I guess this is the resort some take when they're challenged, myself included.

Thu, 2010-08-19 20:31

#70

Yiwah

Cueball wrote:

I am glad that the question in the OP in no way reflects any kind of unspoken agenda regarding anything that I said, and is not in any way shape or form about me. The question is innocent, and void of any motive. It's just an abstract "point of interest" type question without background, or intent.

I think I've been clear about my motive. I don't like people accusing others of having hidden motives. I think it's bullying, I think it's harassing, and I want it to end.

I made a point of not framing this around you, because it isn't really about you. If it were just about one person...well I mean, come on, I think even the most sensitive among us could ignore ONE person.

This conversation is not at all abstract. It's about as real as you can get.

Thu, 2010-08-19 20:34

#71

theboxman

For some reason I can't help but think this very thread is a performative contradiction.

Thu, 2010-08-19 20:35

#72

Yiwah

Cueball wrote:

I move this thread be closed.

On what grounds?

Edit: hey! That movie has guys playing roller derby! *shakes head*

Thu, 2010-08-19 20:36

#73

Yiwah

theboxman wrote:

For some reason I can't help but think this very thread is a performative contradiction.

Sorry, but for me to make sense of that, you're going to have to explain it.

Thu, 2010-08-19 20:38

#74

Yiwah

RevolutionPlease wrote:

Yep, much ado about nothing but continue if that's your thing.

You could always just try and respond. I guess this is the resort some take when they're challenged, myself included.

I'm not sure who you are responding to?

And when you say 'just try and respond', what do you mean?

Please let's not make this thread any more cryptic than it has to be...

Thu, 2010-08-19 20:41

#75

theboxman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_contradiction

Thu, 2010-08-19 20:57

#76

Yiwah

theboxman wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_contradiction

Quote:
A performative contradiction arises when the propositional content of a statement contradicts the noncontingent presuppositions that make possible the performance of the speech act, such as occurs with "all statements must be false."

Even if I actually worked through this, and looked up 'noncontingent' and put it all together to figure out the meaning of the above definition it would still not explain to me what your thoughts are on this thread. I don't have enough of a philosophical background to puzzle out your meaning.

I'm fairly certain you could explain it, quite quickly instead.

Thu, 2010-08-19 21:09

#77

Slumberjack

Yiwah wrote:
I don't like people accusing others of having hidden motives. I think it's bullying, I think it's harassing, and I want it to end.

People continually arrive here with motives and perspectives that do not fit into any discussion. The tradition in the past was to see them escorted out fairly quickly once identified, usually by other posters. Those of us who have stuck around for awhile cannot claim awareness and 'get it' creds across the entire spectrum of progressive thought, and for the most part from what I've seen, few would. Such limitations and self assessment where contemplated does not lend itself in every instance toward avoiding assumptions and statements which conflict with intense lived experiences. The resulting challenge and discourse is often indicative of frustration in those circumstances where it is found that normally thoughtful people can still be influenced in some respects by the dominant narratives that thrive elsewhere. If some simply cannot find it within themselves to be kind towards ignorance, they can't be blamed entirely. I don't see it going away anytime soon. Do stick around though.

Thu, 2010-08-19 21:11

#78

George Victor

Mystification goes back centuries. So does bullying. And neither should be allowed. (there, got it :)

Thu, 2010-08-19 21:11

#79

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

How about realization? When does that get recognized?

Thu, 2010-08-19 21:14

#80

Yiwah

RevolutionPlease wrote:

How about realization? When does that get recognized?

I'm starting to feel like Alice in Wonderland...

Can people please avoid the oblique comments? Or at least be willing to explain them? I don't even know who the intended audience is sometimes.

Thu, 2010-08-19 21:17

#81

Yiwah

Slumberjack wrote:

Yiwah wrote:
I don't like people accusing others of having hidden motives. I think it's bullying, I think it's harassing, and I want it to end.

People continually arrive here with motives and perspectives that do not fit into any discussion. The tradition in the past was to see them escorted out fairly quickly once identified, usually by other posters. Those of us who have stuck around for awhile cannot claim awareness and 'get it' creds across the entire spectrum of progressive thought, and for the most part from what I've seen, few would. Such limitations and self assessment where contemplated does not lend itself in every instance toward avoiding assumptions and statements which conflict with intense lived experiences. The resulting challenge and discourse is often indicative of frustration in those circumstances where it is found that normally thoughtful people can still be influenced in some respects by the dominant narritives that thrive elsewhere. If some simply cannot find it within themselves to be kind towards ignorance, they can't be blamed entirely. I don't see it going away anytime soon. Do stick around though.

I'm not sure.... are you're working with the belief that the people who are being treated 'unkindly' are influenced by dominant narratives, or are ignorant and this frustrates those who resort to unkindness? Wouldn't this assume that those engaging in unkindness are somehow free of the influence of dominant narratives, and are not ignorant? That's sort of what I'm getting from what you said, though I apologise if that's not accurate.

I don't see it going away any time soon either...but I wonder how much of that is because this kind of thing actually IS part of the dominant narrative. It certainly represents some sort of cultural narrative...and if you look at the action, not the content...well a lot of groups call people out and claim there are hidden motives. Even among my own cultural group...accusations of thinking like the moniyaw (white people) fly pretty fast when you say something others don't like...

Some among us have taken to calling that horizontal violence. I suppose that's how I feel about this too.

Edit: though you also talk about what I see as 'we aren't ALL progressive ALL the time'...and if that's something you have expressed, I agree with it. I think it's a verb, not a noun.

Thu, 2010-08-19 21:31

#82

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Nor do I with your posts. wordiness, nonetheless, without explanation is equivalent to my 2 cents. Perhaps you go first.

Thu, 2010-08-19 21:32

#83

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Oh, and just see the post above the one you referenced Yiwah and perhaps it's not so oblique, no?

Thu, 2010-08-19 21:49

#84

Yiwah

RevolutionPlease wrote:

Nor do I with your posts. wordiness, nonetheless, without explanation is equivalent to my 2 cents. Perhaps you go first.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. I hope that makes my position clear, in terms of all your posts in this thread so far.

I did, at your first post, ask you directly to explain your meaning. Perhaps you missed it.

If you have any questions about what I mean, or am talking about, please feel free to ask me, and I'll try my best to explain.

However, once again, I do not understand your posts, and I have no idea at all if you want something from me or not, or are trying to tell me or anyone else something or not. So if you want comprehension, some sort of clarity would be nice.

Edit: Please don't feel singled out...yours are not the only posts whose meaning or purpose escapes me.

Thu, 2010-08-19 21:55

#85

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

I guess I'm trying to say that I also have no idea where you're going with your posts in this thread. You take subtle jabs without directing us to where or why your indignation comes from.

Is that any clearer?

Thu, 2010-08-19 21:56

#86

absentia

No, what i was about to say - regarding other recent posts, which i had trouble understanding, too - would be distinctly unhelpful.

I'm sorry, Yiwah, none of my theories and guesses seem to apply here.

Thu, 2010-08-19 22:02

#87

Yiwah

RevolutionPlease wrote:

I guess I'm trying to say that I also have no idea where you're going with your posts in this thread. You take subtle jabs without directing us to where or why your indignation comes from.

Is that any clearer?

Hmmm.

Okay, let me address that.

First of all, I'm not 'going' anywere with my posts in this thread. Your sentence leads me to believe that you think I have a path planned out, and that I'm working up to something. As I've explained already, this is how I like to think, especially about subjects that are difficult and somewhat intangible. I'm having a conversation, not developing a thesis.

My 'jabs' are not, in my mind, at all subtle. Nor are they jabs. Are there specific instances I am holding in my mind of people accusing others of having hidden motives? Yes. Many. Should I go and find them and quote them and point fingers? Absolutely not. Not only would that be pointless, and destructive, it would change absolutely nothing. This thread isn't about calling out individuals, it's about addressing an atmosphere. And all of us have a hand in creating that atmosphere.

I think my 'indignation' has been stated quite clearly. I'll do it again:

I don't think it's okay to accuse people of having hidden motives.

Instead of attempting to mind read, I think we should go the easier route...and ASK. And believe the answers. Or at least, not give a shit if we think someone is still trying to pull a fast one. We are smart enough to not get sucked into some sort of CBC comment section argument with rednecks, without becoming afraid that we will be infiltrated.

I hope that clarifies my position, and where it's coming from. As for solutions...well I suppose THAT is the point of this thread. I'm looking to other posters here to help think up ways to stop this behaviour or at least deal with it in a constructive way.

Edit: and thank you, that was much clearer.

Thu, 2010-08-19 22:05

#88

Yiwah

absentia wrote:

No, what i was about to say - regarding other recent posts, which i had trouble understanding, too - would be distinctly unhelpful.

I'm sorry, Yiwah, none of my theories and guesses seem to apply here.

I don't think it's all that different from real life, this issue with communication. Some people you meet for the first time, and you talk to each other and you 'get it'. Others you meet for the first time and you aren't really sure how to take them...was that a joke? Sarcasm? Flirtation? Sometimes it takes a bit longer to figure out how to talk to some people, and I think that's just chemistry. Lord knows, I've had people in real life look at me like a two-headed alien more than once...

Thu, 2010-08-19 22:07

#89

Yiwah

Lol...I also just realised something....this thread is making me paranoid.

Or no, perhaps I was already paranoid.

What I mean is, I'm waiting for people to accuse me of having some sort of weird motives for....talking about accusations about weird motives.

So when I'm confused about what is being said, I think I'm actually wondering if that's what is happening, and it's going a bit over my head.

Thu, 2010-08-19 22:15

#90

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

But many posts are filled with hidden motives, perhaps subconsciously or not. Are you the arbritor of which are and aren't? I could take almost every post to task for it's hidden assumptions and bias. You seem to just be crying sour grapes because you're being taken to task for a position that YOU assumed. I can't defend many positions here, hence the reason I don't post much. But I've accepted that. I wish this place had a more anti-poverty/social justice angle but they don't. They allow the dominant voice.

The problem I see is, you keep starting these meta-discussions when it comes to topics about Israel and downplaying their racist policies. Babble just ain't going to tolerate that, like my issues.

Thu, 2010-08-19 22:32

#91

Yiwah

RevolutionPlease wrote:

But many posts are filled with hidden motives, perhaps subconsciously or not.

I wouldn't say many...I'd say ALL. Though I believe in the main, the motives are subconscious.

So when I say, accusing people of hidden motives, I don't mean the subconscious ones, because I don't think the accusations are about subconscious motives. It seems to me they are about conscious motives, planned, deliberate, intended motives. Manipulations.

Some people do this. Yes. But I don't think it happens as often as the accusations suggest they do. I also think that if you suspect something is leading somewhere, or could lead somewhere, that there are constructive ways to address that....ways that don't come across as attacks. Ways that don't leave people feeling like they've just been accused of lying, or whatever.

RevolutionPlease wrote:

Are you the arbritor of which are and aren't? I could take almost every post to task for it's hidden assumptions and bias. You seem to just be crying sour grapes because you're being taken to task for a position that YOU assumed.

No, I'm crying foul when people believe they know my 'real true hidden intentions'. I have agency, and I don't think it's okay to have that stripped from me, and then have someone posting about 'Yiwah is actually doing such and such'. Nor do I think it's okay to do that to anyone at all.

How much do YOU like being told what you ACTUALLY intend?

RevolutionPlease wrote:
I can't defend many positions here, hence the reason I don't post much. But I've accepted that. I wish this place had a more anti-poverty/social justice angle but they don't. They allow the dominant voice.

What do you mean about not being able to defend many positions here? Do you mean positions you hold on certain subjects? There are a lot of conversations I don't get involved in here...either out of disinterest, or because I really just don't have anything to add. I just don't know enough about it, or nothing I could say would be new or important. I don't see a problem with that...I go with my interests.

This place can grow to have more of an anti-poverty/social justice angle. It just takes more anglers.

RevolutionPlease wrote:

The problem I see is, you keep starting these meta-discussions when it comes to topics about Israel and downplaying their racist policies. Babble just ain't going to tolerate that, like my issues.

That may be how you see it, but it isn't the way I intend it. I really, really, really don't want this thread to turn into another Israel thread...let me just include that caveat now. I'll address what you've said, because you've said it, but beyond that I'd rather it went to private messages than end up taking over this thread.

First of all...where do I post most? In the Aboriginal forum. I hop around a bit, but I don't actually involve myself in many discussion on Israel...perhaps you notice me when I do, so it seems like a lot, but if you just search my posts, you'll find that outside of...two threads? If we count the continuation...there are two threads on that topic. And now it seems that if I have any discussion outside of the Aboriginal forum, it's immediately assumed I'm going MMM (meta-meta-meta).

Except here's the thing. What are you going to say about something that's obviously wrong? "It's wrong". So that's said, now what? I want to get into topics more than that, I want to think about them. I want to see what's going on. In the last case, it was how Israel is exploiting cheap labour and then 'tossing out the trash' when they feel like it. So you say "it's wrong". But it's also part of a wider problem, and a system that helps support these kinds of policies and that's what I wanted to examine. That isn't meta. It's not a discussion about a discussion...it's a discussion period. The only time I'm actually getting meta is when I'm asking people why they are talking about things they way they are.

I want complexity, I don't just want coffee room chats. My interest isn't in surface discussions. I can have those with people at the bus-stop. So I'm going to probe, and I'm going to think aloud, and I'm going to try out different ideas and ask questions. I'm going to do this, it's not going to stop....and all I ask is that instead of having people say "you have hidden (BAD, CONSCIOUS) motives and are trying to (DO SOMETHING BAD)", that they ask if they aren't sure what I mean, and if they still aren't sure, they ask again. Or cripes say, "when you do this it seems to have the effect of doing that"....but don't freak out if I disagree. It feels to me a lot like I, and others, are being censored or guided along on 'safe talk tracks', and that fundamentally pisses me off. My brain doesn't work that way, and I simply don't respect authority that much.

What do you mean, Babble won't tolerate that 'like my issues'? Are there things you'd like to talk about but feel like you can't?

Thu, 2010-08-19 22:34

#92

Yiwah

Also, my apologies for the sheer volume of what I write. I've always been that way. It's not a tactic intended to drown you in text. If it makes you feel better, my daughters regularly punish me by trying to literally talk my ears off. The apple, the tree, not far...

Thu, 2010-08-19 22:45

#93

KenS

RevolutionPlease wrote:

But many posts are filled with hidden motives, perhaps subconsciously or not. Are you the arbritor of which are and aren't? I could take almost every post to task for it's hidden assumptions and bias.

Yes. Everything said COULD have hidden motives in it. And in just about any case, one can make a rational argument that there really is hidden motive/agenda X or Y that is not being stated.

The point is simple: dont attribute "hidden motives/agendas". Period. Full stop.

Of course you'll think that to yourself. But keep it there- in your own head. In the discussion, deal with what people say.

And of course there's going to be exceptions to that. Both what could be called a consensus of a "good" exception, as well as the slip ups when you just attribute things because you do.

But there is not in principle such thing as a good or correct attribution of hidden motives.

ETA: Just to be clear, cross-posted with Yiwah speaking to same subject.

Thu, 2010-08-19 22:52

#94

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

KenS wrote:
RevolutionPlease wrote:

But many posts are filled with hidden motives, perhaps subconsciously or not. Are you the arbritor of which are and aren't? I could take almost every post to task for it's hidden assumptions and bias.

Yes. Everything said COULD have hidden motives in it. And in just about any case, one can make a rational argument that there really is hidden motive/agenda X or Y that is not being stated. The point is simple: dont attribute "hidden motives/agendas". Period. Full stop. Of course you'll think that to yourself. But keep it there- in your own head. In the discussion, deal with what people say. And of course there's going to be exceptions to that. Both what could be called a consensus of a "good" exception, as well as the slip ups when you just attribute things because you do. But there is not in principle such thing as a good or correct attribution of hidden motives. ETA: Just to be clear, cross-posted with Yiwah speaking to same subject.

That's the key, my friend, we all have different readings when online. It's absent physical cue's or context. It's tricky.

Thu, 2010-08-19 22:54

#95

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Yiwah wrote:

Also, my apologies for the sheer volume of what I write. I've always been that way. It's not a tactic intended to drown you in text. If it makes you feel better, my daughters regularly punish me by trying to literally talk my ears off. The apple, the tree, not far...

Good for your daughters. [/wink] I do have a problem with verbose posts because they tend to swing far and wide and it's hard to nail them down, if you know what I mean.

But what of the subconscious? There are some knowing babblers that point out the subconscious of posts but are chastized for it? There is a lot to give credence for understanding the subconscious. It's helped me alot.

I think babble's just fine challenging and observing this phenomenon.

Thu, 2010-08-19 22:56

#96

Yiwah

Two last thoughts before I lay me down to sleep.

At post #41, Absentia mentioned that when s/he first came across one of these threads of mine about the dynamic here, it was confusing, because Absentia didn't think there was an issue. So if you are reading this and don't feel like there is an issue or a problem, then what I'm saying is probably going to be weird and confusing. For ME there is a problem/issue. Others agree. But not everyone will, and that's fine. Just try to remember...I think there's a problem and that's what is fuelling this. It's my perception.

As I was showering I was thinking of how I get 'caught up' in some discussions, and how confusing they get at times. I realised that it's because of certain assumptions...not accusations, just assumptions. I probably do this too, because I think I know what someone is saying. I think sometimes we accept the assumptions that have been made not because we agree with them...but because we might not have even noticed them at first, or we hadn't thought it all the way out.

Had anyone asked me, "do you think that Germany and Japan's immigration policies are the same, morally or otherwise etc"...I would have said no, because they aren't. That wasn't my point. It was taken to be though, I think...and because I didn't see that right off the bat, I ended up trying to explain how I wasn't trying to minimise anything rather than spending more time figuring out why I thought their policies were relevant...ie, policies like theirs are not stellar and hence they likely aren't going to criticise or act and stop the abuse.

So I think sometimes, we spend more time trying to undo what we never intended, and our original thoughts get lost, or are left undeveloped...because I truly believe that most of us engage in conversations as a process, not a soap-box.

Anyway, I'm going to try not to assume that I know what people are intending, and if I'm confused, I'll try to ask in the most direct way possible...and then I'm going to believe the answer given.

Thu, 2010-08-19 23:02

#97

6079_Smith_W

@ RevolutionPlease #89

No, actually it's not all that hidden or subtle. There are some very good ideas and some very good people here, but it can at times turn into a total snake pit, with people caring less about getting at the truth of the matter or understanding one another' opinions than they do about accusing, throwing words, laying traps, not giving the benefit of the doubt, and sometimes making completely unfounded accusations and personal attacks.

And lest anyone think I am pointing fingers I'll say that most of us, including myself have done some of these things to some degree because it is an accepted level of discourse.

Thu, 2010-08-19 23:04

#98

Yiwah

RevolutionPlease wrote:

Good for your daughters. [/wink] I do have a problem with verbose posts because they tend to swing far and wide and it's hard to nail them down, if you know what I mean.

I do know what you mean. My posts are quite often stream-of-consciousness writing. I have to be so focused in other areas of my life that it's nice to let go online and just think as I 'speak'. I get that it can be offputting, but it's kind of my thing. As long as no one feels like I'm doing it to harm them...

RevolutionPlease wrote:

But what of the subconscious? There are some knowing babblers that point out the subconscious of posts but are chastized for it? There is a lot to give credence for understanding the subconscious. It's helped me alot.

I don't think that should stop...because sometimes people are working from starting points they haven't actually looked at, and it's super useful to bring it up. Over the years that has helped me a lot too. It helps us become and stay critical thinkers.

But that can happen without it being an attack. When it's phrased as an accusation, I think it puts people on the defensive, or drives them off, or makes them feel helpless, because it's a hard thing to defend yourself from. But if you're saying, "did you notice that you used sexist language there?", you'll probably get a "huh...no, actually I hadn't noticed...huh..." rather than a "I'm not a sexist! Why are you saying I'm a sexist!?"

Edit: or a "how is that sexist?" at which point, insert awesome explanation...

RevolutionPlease wrote:

I think babble's just fine challenging and observing this phenomenon.

I always think there's room for improvement :D

Thu, 2010-08-19 23:05

#99

pookie

Timebandit wrote:

Yiwah wrote:

My problem is that I can strive to avoid doing these things to other people...with varying degrees of success....but what I'm not able to do is ignore it when it's being done to me. I'd like to not care when someone decides that I have some secret motives...but again there's that fundamental sense of being unjustly accused that always pisses me off. It's abusive. And I could probably actually let it go in a space where I don't give a damn about what people want to believe...but when it happens in a place I want to have the space to explore ideas, it means I feel less able to explore ideas for fear of saying something that someone will come along and...deliberately mischaracterise. Almost like sharks cruising. It makes me wonder why it happens, and why we let it happen. So here I am again, talking about it.

I suppose the biggest obstacle is that it's unlikely people doing this are going to feel as though they are attacking...it's going to feel justified to them. Hence the lack of change.

Well said. I've been thinking in a similar vein, and it's good to see I am not alone in this.

It's the reason I virtually never post here anymore.

Thu, 2010-08-19 23:10

#100

Yiwah

pookie wrote:

It's the reason I virtually never post here anymore.

I feel like I remember you from when I first found Babble ages ago...

Thu, 2010-08-19 23:11

#101

Yiwah

@#97

I think though that the point is a good one...part of what drives our misunderstandings is that we're not face to face. Cripes, even face to face people have conflicts and difficulties understanding one another, it's bound to be harder online.

But I agree that sometimes it's deliberate. I also agree that I have found my posting style changing based on what is allowed, and I don't like it.

Though read the thread title again...it's perception too, isn't it? What feels like an attack can feel like a justified revelation on the part of the other...

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