The previous threads were closed, so here's a new one.
So it's been almost 2 months since the suits at rabble.ca (Alex, Kim) forced Maisie to announce the new editorial policy, that calling cops pigs is anti-labor and dehumanizing, but only if it's written in the thread titles; it's OK to say it in the body of the thread itself.
Will they ever explain the logic behind that policy? Or do they hope the issue will just go away?
I've flagged the above post for spamming. One could add charges such as provocation and baiting, bullying, harassment... A few others come to mind.
I've flagged the above post for spamming. One could add charges such as provocation and baiting, bullying, harassment... A few others come to mind.
Yo. Catchfire himself expected another thread on this topic:
Closing for length. I'm sure we'll see another one soon.
So what's your bother, dude?
FWIW I have had as many confrontations with various police departments as anyone and I have always been uncomfortable with calling them 'pigs'. It is too dehumanizing and I fear that could lead to far worse consequences. The more they are denied their humanity the more violence becomes an option.
If they behave like thugs, call them thugs: if they behave in an uncivilized manner, say so in those words. Calling them 'pigs' is a hold over from another age and shows a certain lack of imagination - I would hope a more descriptive and less dehumanizing epithet is available.
It would have to be quite a daunting task for anyone to dehumanize pigs any more than what they routinely attempt to do to others, and themselves in the process. I take the word pig in this context as an expression of resistance against oppressive institutions, one particular word set aside by the usual victims from many other descriptive words as the most appropriate way of indicating an unwillingness to bow before ones tormentors.
So what's your bother, dude?
I believe you're being called on your lack of seniority in the pecking order of things. There's nothing more irritating than a relative newcomer stepping out of turn to provoke, bait, bully and harass. I'm afraid you'll just have to put in a little more time before you can expect to do all of those things with impunity.
So what's your bother, dude?I believe you're being called on your lack of seniority in the pecking order of things. There's nothing more irritating than a relative newcomer stepping out of turn to provoke, bait, bully and harass. I'm afraid you'll just have to put in a little more time before you can expect to do all of those things with impunity.
LOL. Yeah, a certain individual here sure isn't happy about not being "cock-of-the-walk". I prefer to think of this individual as "Chief Walking Eagle".
Congratulations, SJ.
I have no trouble with babblers using language however it suits them. But this particular issue is getting a little silly - even by babble standards... which is saying something.
Babble is simply an adjunct of rabble. Rabble is a business, doing its best to get by in an absolutely rotten media environment. Having anonymous posters from the forum continually hector the very real people trying to carve out a progressive news site seems amateurish and small minded.
Historically there has been about one thread every two weeks berating the mods, or rabble, about something that puts bees in the bonnets of a very small number of forum contributors, who seem to expect the people involved in rabble\babble to drop absolutely everything and deal with the oh-so important burning issue immediately.
As I can gather there is currently a policy in place regarding the pigs\cops issue. Either deal with that as it stands or wait. The web is a big place, and there are plenty of ways in which a frustrated writer can express themselves, including starting one's own blog\news site, where the rules I'm sure would be without question enforced in a timely manner that satisfies all the boxes on the progressive checklist.
It would have to be quite a daunting task for anyone to dehumanize pigs any more than what they routinely attempt to do to others, and themselves in the process. I take the word pig in this context as an expression of resistance against oppressive institutions, one particular word set aside by the usual victims from many other descriptive words as the most appropriate way of indicating an unwillingness to bow before ones tormentors.
If your termonology MUST include some reference to the porcine ... would you accept "they are behaving like swine."
If your termonology MUST include some reference to the porcine ... would you accept "they are behaving like swine."
It's not up to me to offer acceptance or criticism of any descriptive choice. In my estimation at least, it is enough to simply acknowledge where the choice originates from, and to respect it. It's validity is not for me to decide.
Either deal with that as it stands or wait.
An all too familiar refrain in the broader context of the relationship between the dominant culture and those who have become accustomed to waiting, where the term 'as it stands or wait' is seamlessly interchangeable with 'as it stands or else.' The 'wait' message is the typical counsel of the elitist left, while the 'or else' message is usually delivered by the police. The result is just another instance of mutually beneficial collaboration between opposite sides of the elitist coin.
And just another flowery paragraph to show how deeply empathy can flow from someone on the sidelines.
It is ultimately rabble's decision about content on their website. I don't agree with many of their editorial decisions, and their messaging and timelines have been weird on E Tam's questions. But it's still rabble's business, literally.
I think I should start now taking up a collection for an inscription on E.Tamaran's memorial:
"He was still waiting for that answer."
Oink-oink, says the piggy.
Got you in the docket.
Give me your duckets.
Oink-oink.
Police union trough
Feeds 'em fat.
Feeds 'em blue.
They're not there
Not there for you.
Why can't you learn?
Call 'em piggy
And oink-wannabe make you burn.
I don't often post my bad poetry from a few years ago on babble, but this all seems quite the appropriate place for this. Heh.
Mr Peameal
[IMG]http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z32/jcervantes11/evil-pig_rsz.jpg[/IMG]
Hey you Whitehouse, ha ha, charade you are
You house proud town mouse, ha ha, charade you are
You're trying to keep our feelings off the street
You're nearly a real treat
All tight lips and cold feet
And do you feel abused?
Ayup? 
Good read.
If they behave like thugs, call them thugs: if they behave in an uncivilized manner, say so in those words. Calling them 'pigs' is a hold over from another age and shows a certain lack of imagination - I would hope a more descriptive and less dehumanizing epithet is available.
Can someone explain how police officers were called pigs in the first place? When I hear the word "pig" politically, the first image that comes to mind is the capitalist, not the cop.
When I hear the word "pig" politically, the first image that comes to mind is the capitalist, not the cop.
Ditto:
So it's been almost 2 months since the suits at rabble.ca (Alex, Kim) forced Maisie to announce the new editorial policy.
Nice try, it's actually been less than a week past 1 month, not "almost" 2 months when you stated that.
True. I falsely started the rumour that it had been 2 months, by mistake.
FWIW I have had as many confrontations with various police departments as anyone and I have always been uncomfortable with calling them 'pigs'. It is too dehumanizing and I fear that could lead to far worse consequences. The more they are denied their humanity the more violence becomes an option.
If they behave like thugs, call them thugs: if they behave in an uncivilized manner, say so in those words. Calling them 'pigs' is a hold over from another age and shows a certain lack of imagination - I would hope a more descriptive and less dehumanizing epithet is available.
What would be "uncvilized'? E. Tamaram, what has been the experience of FN peoples with "civilization"?
What would be "uncvilized'? E. Tamaram, what has been the experience of FN peoples with "civilization"?
well, all I can say is that catchfire has decided to expand the list of banned words for cops. Now you can't call them swine. He changed a thread title about the ontario FN that kicked the corrupt OPP swine out of town, and removed "swine". Calling them corrupt is still allowed, apparantly.
Good grief!
Why would you be surprised at constraints on synonyms?
Why would you be surprised at constraints on synonyms?
Oh, maybe because I had this unfounded view that rabble.ca stood for more that legalistic semantics, so that when Maysie said:
The word "pig(s)" used to describe the police is no longer allowed in thread titles.
http://rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/changing-thread-titles
she actually meant "pigs", and not every synonym in the english....language...hey...I have an idea...
From one of the many [url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/about-not-calling-police-of... spam threads[/url] on this trivial topic:
At the moment it seems we're down to one active thread on the entire board with which to discuss an editorial decision that effectively places limits on how marginalized communities may represent their oppressors on this website.
[emphasis added]
Well, now we're up to [b]three active threads[/b] dedicated to avoiding serious discussion about any issue whatsoever, and hurling venom against rabble and the babble moderators.
I would again request that this crap be stopped.
I see it the exact opposite. But then again, I really really dislike the police - and it isn't because I'm a criminal. I don't have a criminal record. I do not think this is a trivial issue. There is justifiable and very real anger against the police, for a myriad of reasons.
I wish whoever made this decision would just come out with the real reason it was made and stop jerking us around. Just state that the police are friends of labour and you don't want to alienate them. Regardless if that is true or not, and regardless of all the actual crimes committed by the police - which they are never held accountable for, combined with the fact that no police officer is EVER going to be a member of babble. Yes, I can see why defending them against the word pig is of utmost importance to the people at Rabble (I am not talking about the mods).
I would again request that this crap be stopped.
yawn....
Well, now we're up to [b]three active threads[/b] dedicated to avoiding serious discussion about any issue whatsoever, and hurling venom against rabble and the babble moderators. I would again request that this crap be stopped.
Admit it, they got to you didn't they? It's almost as if you're meeting them in clandestine locations to receive envelopes stuffed with rabble merchandise.
Not that it's likely to make a spot of difference, but just a reminder that Maysie is still on vacation for another week, so there won't be an answer before then, I think ...
Not that it's likely to make a spot of difference, but just a reminder that Maysie is still on vacation for another week, so there won't be an answer before then, I think ...
Thanks, ripple, that'll definitely stop the foolishness dead in its tracks. By the way, it wasn't Maysie's decision in the first place, though I can hardly blame anyone for forgetting what the origin of this earth-shaking debate was all about anyway.
By the way, it wasn't Maysie's decision in the first place,
That's what's called in the business a "strawman argument". See, no one is saying Maysie made this decision; people who've been following this know she was ordered to communicate it to babble by the suits.
Well, now we're up to [b]three active threads[/b] dedicated to avoiding serious discussion about any issue whatsoever, and hurling venom against rabble and the babble moderators. I would again request that this crap be stopped.Admit it, they got to you didn't they? It's almost as if you're meeting them in clandestine locations to receive envelopes stuffed with rabble merchandise.
I agree. Mods are people too. I think this is just getting ridiculous. BTW Unionist did you pick the rabble mug or t-shirt, I wasn't sure which one to get.
By the way, it wasn't Maysie's decision in the first place,
That's what's called in the business a "strawman argument". See, no one is saying Maysie made this decision; people who've been following this know she was ordered to communicate it to babble by the suits.
I always picture rabble.ca being run by tie-dyed granola chompers.
I agree. Mods are people too. I think this is just getting ridiculous. BTW Unionist did you pick the rabble mug or t-shirt, I wasn't sure which one to get.
I was onside until they offered me that monkey. Haven't they heard of coulrophobia?
This is a partial quote from my post in the OPP/FN thread. Copying it here just to make sure it get's seen.
[QUOTE]
Tamaran dial it back. There is not a damn thing we can do about this, and the mods have said how we feel about it. I've closed down the duplicate thread you started in the Aboriginal forum as this is already being discussed on the other thread you started.
You started off with considerable indignation for which I and others have had some sympathy, but you're getting to be needlessly provocative and just crapping all over the place. Cut it out or you'll be taking a break from here.
[/QUOTE]
I feel I'm missing out here. Ok, five minutes in person with the monkey [all I'll need], throw in a case of Molson, and I'll sing whatever tune you want.
Bump. Another week has gone by...still no answer...
One week = 7 days. I know...a quibble.
A business week SJ
Darn, 10.5 hours short of being exactly 1 week. Oh well, close enough. Good pick up though. Shows you've been paying attention. :)
Oh, I thought, you meant a business week was at an end.
That works too! :)
Business week my ass. Thoughtful people work seven days a week to rid us of five day work weeks.
Hey everyone,
An update to our changing thread titles discussion now that most everyone is back at the moment from their rotating vacations at rabble (mine's next week!). To clarify the editors' position, thread titles on babble, while more informal in their style, are considered a form of headline. When you start a thread, the title you give it informs the entire thread, not only your individual comment, and the thread titles appear throughout rabble, including on the front page. Further, these babble headlines do show up in Google searches and represent rabble.ca publicly. As you all likely know, babble moderators routinely make corrections in headlines for typos, etc, and occasionally for other reasons (which they discuss in threads when instances arise).
For those of you with some history on the site, that consistency was easier to manage when there was a full-time editor and part-time editorial assistants on the site. However, there has also been some debate on how much editing should ideally happen, and on whether thread titles should indeed be treated along the same lines as news features, blogs, podcasts, events listings and other kinds of content on the site. The decision to edit 'pig' from a headline, while not banning the use of the term in threads, was made to conform to the front page style guide for headlines, which follows the Canadian Press style guide. There was no intention of suppressing use in comments in the threads themselves by any individual babbler.
At the moment, rabble's editors and the babble moderators are visiting proposals on how to address consistency with headlines on the site and thread titles on babble. A couple of these proposals include: 1) Changing the babble box on the front page and throughout rabble to highlight the authorship rather than the most recent poster and 2) To change the words "Active Discussions on babble" to something that more clearly indicates babble is a discussion board. Thread titles will continue to be edited by editors and mods until a resolution can be reached.
For those of you newer to the site, this discussion about changing thread titles and editing on babble has been ongoing between babblers and editorial staff for some time, and may or may not ever be entirely resolved, given the differing approach to content generation on a discussion board versus that of an edited news site. rabble is a very unusual and possibly unique entity, conceived with both babble and the more traditional news model of the site combined into one symbiotic entity. Anyway, this is a larger discussion that we don't believe can be easily resolved and we'll continue to update you as we progress.
Oh hey alex! How's it goin'? Nice to hear from you; it's been a while, LOL :) But anyway, if we can't call cops pigs in thread titles, can we call politicians "pit bulls"? Or can we call other people other animal descriptors? Just wonderin' you know, for "consistency" and all.
Bye bye, hope to hear from you soon! :)
Questions for both sides on this debate to consider:
1)(for "the suits")...is banning the word "pig" in a thread title REALLY worth it? Can't we pretty much assume that anyone who would be offended by a word that simply vividly attacks the police, language that is obviously only going to be used in the context of extreme brutality visited by law enforcement personnel towards those who've done nothing to justify any violent response, will have right-wing opinions on all other issues? Can't we more or less take it as a given that a person who's that touchy about words used towards the enforcers of "law and order" is a person we simply have no possible hope of connecting with on any level?
2)(for anyone who insists on using the "p-word" in a thread headline)Yes, police violence is a horrific thing, and anyone with progressive sympathies needs to denounce it. And yes, everyone in a group that is targeted by law enforcement for violent treatment is entitled to use the word "pig". But, is it really the ONLY word that can convey the necessary rage? What, exactly, do you lose by NOT using that word? I can defend the usage on free speech grounds. But what, as you see it, gives "pig" a rhetorical power that no other word can possibly convey? It was coin of the verbal realm among a lot of the Sixties/early Seventies Left...but it very quickly became a cliche through overuse and lost, at the time, any forcefulness or meaning. The word became a joke. Are you sure it won't be reduced to that again?
Just wanted to put these questions out there.
The decision to edit 'pig' from a headline, while not banning the use of the term in threads, was made to conform to the front page style guide for headlines, which follows the Canadian Press style guide. There was no intention of suppressing use in comments in the threads themselves by any individual babbler.
Any chance you can post a link to this fascist document? And explain why it is relevant?
I thought rabble was different?
And since it's relevant, might as well express my disgust at the recent antics in the aboriginal forum. Will settlers ever leave room for voices other than their own? You should all apologize as someone tried to admonish others into earlier.
fascist document?
I wouldn't go that far.
But either way I've waited a while on commenting on this issue, but I have to say that while I understand alex's reasoning, I certainly hope that it is not a total blanket on the term in thread titles. For instance 'Man assaulted by police - said 'pigs'' or something would hopefully be totally acceptable. However, I understand the editorial needs. As a great admirer of the Chicago Style when writing essays I totally support a rigid and stalwart adherence to a single style. I could even go further and say that in some ways the omission of pig from thread titles is a saving grace. People are more easily drawn into a thread when it doesn't have a denunciation in its headline and are more likely to have extended exposure in the thread. Maybe, who knows.
As much as I understand the motives, I still don't get behind the idea that 'pigs' should be removed from thread titles when in reference to cops. The editors have indeed spoken, and I hope that a few of my fellow babblers will continue to challenge this through constructive suggestions to reach a middle ground. After all, I've never been on a message board that is a 'democracy'. It is always the dictatorship of who pays for the hosting - fair enough. Sometimes it is quite nice when the restrictions brought down from above are brought up with the regular posters prior to being enacted rather than having the post-mortem explanation. Particularly when moderators who are a consistent and direct part of the 'babble' community make the announcement and give all the explanations and not the people who had the majority of the say in the policy choice.
Rock and roll forever.
eta: And I notice that this thread title has not been altered and it has the most direct reference to the pig-police officer paradigm of all the previous thread posting.
I just thought they were trying to do things differently here, therefore your Chicago style goes out the window and we might get some experience of FN or POC style, if you know what I'm sayin'
![http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z32/jcervantes11/evil-pig_rsz.jpg[/IMG]](http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z32/jcervantes11/evil-pig_rsz.jpg[/IMG]){kind=link}