The Afghan people will win! - part 20

Taliban: Greatest Guerrilla Insurgency?

http://ht.ly/2q40Z

"Resistance to interference from outsiders is almost hard-wired into the psyche of the Pashtuns, whose tribal society has survived almost 3,000 years of foreign invasion and occupation..For all their faults, the Taliban brought the majority of Afghans a degree of peace that they hadn't known since the 1970s. 'I changed my view [ of the Taliban] 3 years ago when I realized Afghanistan is on its own,' said Shukria Barakzai recently - a Pashtun MP and one of the country's leading women's rights campaigners, 'The Taliban are part of our population..they have different ideas but as democrats we have to accept that.."

NATO and the US should try this experiment. Pull all of their troops out of Afghanistan, and then take note of how many innocent civilians are murdered by "smart" bombs, remote controlled weapons, and aerial strafing.

PraetorianFour wrote:

Do you consider the Afghans working for NATO/Isaf   traitors and spys?

According to British journalist [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/may/25/afghans-b... Peled[/url], many of those Afghans say they are simply surviving. Some Afghans believe that government could be made more transparent and less corrupt, and that they could have a true defence army loyal to Afghans if they US-led NATO forces pulled out. In the mean time thiough, they have no alternative but to survive the occupation by their wits. Can you blame them?

PraetorianFour wrote:

Rejoice! I am alive and well, visiting my good babble friends while on vacation!

 

Frmrsldr wrote:

 

Why make a separate post about U.S./NATO/ISAF killings of Afghan civilians, do you take personal umbrage to it, or something?

Yeah, you're right I don't deny the insurgents are assassinating Afghan Benedict Arnolds (i.e., traitors). It's the best cure I know for stupidity.

 

http://www.stopchildexecutions.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=art...

old&catid=36:scenews&Itemid=68

Quote:

KABUL, Afghanistan -- The Taliban's execution of an 8-year-old accused of "collaborating" with foreign forces has proved too

much even for Afghans hardened by three decades of fighting.

Quote:

Islamic law prohibits the execution of anyone under 18. The Taliban's own code of conduct, drawn up by the movement two years

ago, stipulates that no commander may order the execution of minors, and anyone disobeying this rule will face retribution.

But a senior Taliban member, Mullah Abdol Bari, suggested that code of conduct did not apply in Helmand.

"The code has been changed for Helmand because the number of infidels there has increased, and the Taliban don't have the time to

hold trials," he said. That meant that local commanders in Helmand province are allowed to use their own discretion to pass judgment

on people accused of spying and punish them accordingly.

"Best cure for stupidity" indeed!

I bet they really taught that 8 year old spy a lesson heh

This thread is always interesting for the one sided views it almost always displays. Killing is bad, unless it's killing <insert name> who  are <insert activity> so it's O-K ...
NATO killing children by accident is murder. 
Taliban killing children by accident is "bad",  BUT they wouldn't be killing those children in the first place if the US never invaded, so it's not really their fault right?

Taliban killing children on purpose? See above "It's Nato's fault anyways".

How can you argue with that logic?  You can't lol.

Cause then a right wing nutbar will counter argue and suggest that the US wouldn't be in Afghanistan if it wasn't for the 9/11 terrorist attacks!

And then THAT point will be counter-counter argued that 9/11 wouldn't have happened if the US wasn't meddeling in the middle east. Or that the US planned it in the first place..

Blame game goes round n round

 

 

I interject the Afghan people will loose because they will either have greedy westerners trying to control them and westernize em $$$ or religious zealots trying to control them and force rules on them.

 

Hi PraetorianFour, welcome back.

Naturally, I was thinking of those adult vultures whose greed talked them into siding with the U.S. and their propped up puppet government.

Like you (I'm sure), I hoped/hope those war criminal military tribunals would take your arguments into consideration when it comes to the trial of former child soldier Omar Khadr.

Oh well, in any case, they're not going to execute him. I guess the prospect of possibly sending a 23 year old to jail for the rest of his life is not as bad.

Unionist wrote:

PraetorianFour wrote:

Is a man who fights along side NATO and thinks NATO is the best way to improve Afghanistan a traitor?

Yes. Why just "man", though?

Quote:

The man or woman who works for NATO because it puts food on their table?

Yes.

Just laziness on my part, it should be man woman and child.

You said yes it makes them a traitor.  Who are you, a westerner, to call an Afghan citizen a traitor? 

  If an Afghan citizen chooses to throw their lot in with X what gives you [gives us] the right to pass judgement?  It's been argued here quite often that westerners have no right to tell Afghanis how to live or what to believe in, yet you are doing JUST that by saying that an Afghan citizen who chooses X over Y is a traitor.

 

Quote:

The Afghan people know how to deal with traitors without our lecturing them on morality.

You mean legitimate ones, not 8 year olds killed because there is no time for a trial, I'm sure.

 

Quote:

Is your point about traitors, or about children? The traitor part is pretty simple, I thought. But we real human beings (i.e., not U.S.-NATO murderers) don't hold children responsible for actions like these. Hope my view here is clear to you.

Not very clear no. traitor is really subjective.  Some Canadians no doubt think you're a traitor for your views, as no doubt some think the same of me.

As a "real human being" [Unlike the NATO-US murderers facist stormtroopers warmongers imperial invaders etc..]   are you okay with executing "traitors"? Traitors being whichever government in power deems as a traitor, be it a James Bond spy or little Billy next door.

 

Here is a question,  when you say the Afghan people will win. How do define "winning" in the context of Afghanistan?  Is winning to you simply Nato pulling out of Afghanistan?

PraetorianFour wrote:

You didn't answer my question though 

Do *you* feel the Afghans who work with NATO/ISAF or who are employed by them are traitors or "Benedict Arnolds?"

I'm sure you can guess where I am going with this.  If the Taliban are willing to murder an 8 year old boy, in defiance of their own laws because they are "too busy to hold a trial" do you think when NATO pulls out all will be forgiven?

By what I know, Taliban laws are not necessarily those of the various tribes of Afghanistan and Pakistan, and not all of who see eye to eye with the others in those countries. The Pashtuns, for instance, have their own code of conduct, Pashtunwalli, which is  said to sometimes clash with Taliban edicts. But apparently what unites them all in opposition to the foreign invaders is the foreign occupation itself. And I think that the fundamentalists know this is true and are willing to overlook certain things in order to keep the peace among the united resistance. This co-operation among tribes and ethnics is unique to Afghanistan. In Iraq, for example, there is no united front against the illegal US military occupation.

But I don't know whether they would be considered traitors. They may, and otoh, I think there is a civil war that still wants playing out and without the interference of other countries. There need to be peace talks, a loya jirga with UN appointed mediators. Surrounding countries need to be included in these peace talks as they are involved in this conflict as well. Afghanistan's borders and sovereignty require certain guarantees from the leaders of those countries.

PraetorianFour wrote:

Fidel wrote:

NATO and the US should try this experiment. Pull all of their troops out of Afghanistan, and then take note of how many innocent civilians are murdered by the Taliban for being traitors

Sadly I remember bringing this point up in an earlier installment of this thread and the feedback I got seemed to be "Meh, at least NATO will be out of their country. It's not our business what goes on or how they run the place". Again, can't argue with someone who's behind that mindset.

If things come down to a civil war in any country, is it really any of our business? What if Russian and British imperials had intervened in the American civil war to the extent that two superpowers have intervened in Afghanistan's civil war since the 1970s? What if some countries had armed the southern US confederates to the eye teeth against the northern union side? Would Cuba or Russia and China have any right to begin arming the various rightwing miltia groups and neoNazis in the US today and fomenting civil war in America in these uncertain economic times in the US? That would  amount to outside political interference in the extreme, for sure. Tha Yanks would probably consider it an act of war.

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

I pretty much agree with the artical... the creation of a coalition government including the Taliban leadership is probably the best answer. I suspect for the Afghan people dealing with the Taliban is going to be like holding a really pissed off badger by the scruff of the neck: you don't like doing it but you can't set it down or let it go... There will be no military victory for any side.  

And 51% of Afghans want pullout of foreign troops by 2011. What kind of survey was it? Was there an option given to survey participants for immediate withdrawal of NATO troops? Did they ask any women what their opinions are and without husbands standing over them? Were Pashtuns represented in the survey?

[url=http://www.rawa.org/rawa/2010/06/01/peace-with-criminals-war-with-people... with Criminals, War with People![/url]

RAWA, June 2010 wrote:

The current conflict between the US, Taliban, and Northern Alliance [color=red][u]is in fact a family matter between them which will be solved sooner or later.[/u][/color] When that happens, the ranks of friends and enemies of our people will become clear and the illusion spread by pro-Taliban, pro-April 27 and April 28 treacherous intellectuals will be countered. Under such conditions, it is the duty of pro-independence, pro-democracy and pro-women’s rights intellectuals to increase their organized efforts for a coordinated uprising of our people against all traitors to Afghanistan.

This "war" is a total farce. Uncle Sam and the Taliban actually have great love for one another. How can anyone hate their own child, their own creation, I ask you? The idea isn't to create a peaceful democracy in Afghanistan - it is to keep them on their knees while the US Military and NATO maintain "forward operations" in Central Asia in this colder war era. It's a bullshit war.

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

I'm in a quandary; I don't really don't have the confidence you have that the Afghan people can stave off a Taliban return if we just up and leave ...

What makes you think the Afghan people want to "stave off" a Taliban return?

Stuff like this...

http://www.j-n-v.org/AW_briefings/JNV_briefing120_What_Do_Afghans_Want.htm

Quote:

Fear of the Taliban

These are the results of a nationwide poll commissioned by the BBC, ABC News (USA) and ARD (Germany), in which 1,534 Afghans were interviewed in all of the country's 34 provinces between 30 December 2008 and 12 January 2009.

The poll found enormous hostility to the Taliban. 82% of people said they would prefer the present government; only 4% favoured a Taliban government. 90% of people said they opposed Taliban fighters. The Taliban were seen as the biggest danger to the country by 58% of people; the United States was in fourth place with 8% (just ahead of 'local commanders' - a euphemism for US-backed warlords, we suspect).

'Who do you blame the most for the violence that is occurring in the country?' The Taliban came top with 27%; al-Qa'eda/foreign jihadis were next with 22%. In third place were 'US/American forces/Bush/US government/America/NATO/ISAF forces' with 21%.

69% of people thought it was a good thing that the US-led forces had come to Aghanistan to bring down the Taliban. (Down from 88% in 2006.)

64% of Afghans thought (in January 2009) that 'The Taliban are the same as before', and had not grown more moderate.

I pretty much agree with the artical... the creation of a coalition government including the Taliban leadership is probably the best answer. I suspect for the Afghan people dealing with the Taliban is going to be like holding a really pissed off badger by the scruff of the neck: you don't like doing it but you can't set it down or let it go... There will be no military victory for any side.   

What Fidel said.

In addition, I will paraphrase an argument of Malalai Joya: The Afghan people are fighting four enemies - the U.S. and foreign forces, the Afghan puppet government the foreign forces are propping up, the Northern Warlords and the Taliban and other anti-democratic mysoginistic forces.

If the foreign forces leave, then that will at least be one less force killing Afghan people and one less force that has to be fought against. Foreign countries can't export liberty. Liberty can only be achieved in a country if its people want it themselves.

Whatever happened in Afghanistan in the past didn't affect any other country (save perhaps Pakistan and India.) It wasn't any business of ours to interfere in the affairs of Afghanistan. We should leave Afghanistan. We should never have gone there in the first place.

Unionist wrote:

What makes you think the Afghan people want to "stave off" a Taliban return?

Honestly?

 

I've have some pretty heartfelt conversations with Afghan men.  By heart felt I mean honest.  By men who at times would point at me and said things like ISAF can be real assholes! And that when the Taliban were in power at least they had electricity and some security [of course the latter if you followed their rules but I digress..]

Anamosity towards ISAF aside, the above picture is a very very real worry for fathers in Afghanistan who love their daughters.  Many of us here are parents and realize how scary something like this can be.

I'm not getting into a who's nicer ISAF or Taliban argument- are bombs from planes or accidental killings any less horrible than IEDs and cutting someones nose off etc.. but to answer your question what makes people think [i]some[/i] Afghans may not want the Taliban to come back into power?

This picture.

 

Whether you hate ISAF et el or not, the Taliban are very brutal and barbaric in their treatment of women and some Afghan parents are rightfully afraid for their childrens welfare should the Taliban take over.

And Karzai is a pro-Mooj freedom fighter from the glorious anti-communist jihad era of the 1980s. He's one of the good guys, isn't he? WTF? Now it's fubar.

Time.com wrote:

Aisha's brother-in-law held her down while her husband pulled out a knife. First he sliced off her ears. Then he started on her nose. Aisha passed out from the pain but awoke soon after, choking on her own blood. The men had left her on the mountainside to die.

Yessir.

Poll shows growing opposition to Afghan war. Nine years in, Americans are sick of war:

Jason Ditz wrote:

Just weeks after a USA Today/Gallup poll showed support for the Afghan War was plummeting, a new Associated Press-GfK poll shows the trend continuing, with 58 percent of Americans now firmly opposed to the war, the worst such toll in the well publicized poll since the 2001 US invasion.

http://news.antiwar.com/2010/08/20/poll-shows-growing-opposition-to-afgh...

hey, did you read the loaded poll question?

 people only agreed, IMV, because they had been lyingly told there were "terrorists" on the boat. Had that not been stated in the question, who knows what their answers may have been.

 

But thanks for the link anyway,  as there is a online poll about panhandling I would not have liked to miss.

leave up to the extreme right wing news media to target the poor by conducting a nasty poll about them.

  

  

   

  

  

 

IEA - Afghan Resistance Statement: Does The American Withdrawal Date Matter?

http://www.alemarah-iea.com/english/index.php?option=com_content&new=art...

"As the Afghan proverb says: 'These are our mountains and we are its dwellers.' Whether the invading enemy forces [Canada!] leave in 1 year or in 10 years, we will continue to fight them until they exit our lands, because long after these invaders have left, we would still be here, free and independent.."

America's Corruption Racket in Central Asia

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article26266.htm

"In another significant piece datelined Kabul, Dexter Filking and Mark Mazetti reveal that the man in the eye of the storm of an Afghan-American corruption scandal, Mohammed Zia Salehi - the Chief of Administration for Afghanistan's National Security Council - is on the payroll of the Central Intelligence Agency..."

Power Points 'R' US: ISAF Headquarters Kabul

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article26263.htm

losing Afghanistan from without and within - may it continue..