@ Catchfire #50
Sorry if I took offense needlessly. Actually I specifically included Rushdie, because it is hard to determine that one thing is more offensive and another is less so unless one is the offended party.
Obviously the thought and understanding that Rushdie had was irrelevant (or perhaps even more damning) to some people, even though his intent was far different than the other people I mentioned.
In any case, I really am done with this now... here anyway.
And of course, you can't extricate this action from the campaign of violence and aggression the West has waged against Muslim nations for a decade (or half century, take your pick)
Well, there was that seige of Jerusalem in 1099, and more recently, the 19th-century British invasions of Afghanistan and India. Of course we musn't forget the 1915 Gallipoli campaign and the attack on the Levant in 1917 and the subsequent division of land in 1919 that led to the current problems in the Middle East.
Good that McKay drew the parallel with the bible, and stated that we are not at war with Islam (of course he HAD to say that, and he knew it).
On the other hand, I don't like that the prime emphasis and the headlines focus on the possibility that this act will put Canadian and American lives at risk.
(edit)
and that the Canadians and Americans they mean are soldiers overseas... they don't mean Muslim Canadians or Muslim Americans who might be affected by this act.
It just perpetuates the racist myth of uncontrollable hordes who will automatically turn to bloody vengance at any offense, and frames the whole situation falsely as a threat to us.
Catchfire - I realize the example I gave was crude but I was trying to think quickly of analogies with recent "controversial" art such as Piss Christ, Marilyn Manson ripping bibles as part of his stage show ect.
You didn't respond to the points I made earlier about desecrating symbols be they holy books, national flags, effigies, ect so I'm not sure if you view these things differently.
As far as comparing it to art - This idiot is a provocateur and it's all about the reaction. Without giving him any undue credit it makes me think of Andy Warhols's early films like Blowjob or Sleep. To Andy just spreading the idea of the film(an 8hr film of a guy sleeping or a movie titled Blowjob - was more important than anyone actually seeing them.
If this guy had burned a Koran but not told anyone would it matter ? You get my point?
Fuck it all... This 9-11 (it's a Saturday) I'm going to the lake and burn some ribs and chicken on the grill, crack open a keg of home brewed beer and drown a few worms in the process. I bet I'm not alone.
Enjoying life is the best revenge on all these crazy bastards; Christian or Muslim or whatever.
If this thread could continue on the topic of Islamophobia that would be marvy.
I thought it was about this one particular event - sorry
"Fuck it all" says Bec, and I'm inclined to agree. But I can't. As frustrated as I get with this issue, I can't avoid thinking there is something of crucial moral importance going on here. Fritz Perls said he tried to tell his Jewish friends and family in 1930's Germany that they couldn't put enough space between them and that country. I suspect a lot of Muslim Americans are having similar thoughts. I know I would. And yet... America elected a black president, the msm is roundly condemning this shit-for-brains "pastor"...what's really going on here?
The case must be made very strongly that those who work to divide Muslims from the rest are doing al Qaeda's work for them. This will a difficult case to make for those who believe Islamic extremism (which is far more "extreme" than Islamic) does not really exist, or may safely be disregarded or dismissed. Muslims reportedly represent something more than 3 million Americans. 1%.
Fundamental Christians, Tea baggers, hard core extremist Republicans, and their assorted deluded, more moderate hangers on represent a bigger group. The Civil War never ended. Get ready for Round Two.
The case must be made very strongly that those who work to divide Muslims from the rest are doing al Qaeda's work for them. This will a difficult case to make for those who believe Islamic extremism (which is far more "extreme" than Islamic) does not really exist, or may safely be disregarded or dismissed. Muslims reportedly represent something more than 3 million Americans. 1%.
I think religious extremism does exist, and the US and Saudis, Pakistani elites continue to finance the madrassa system in their ongoing geopolitical campaign to destabilize a number of countries and prevent outbreaks of democracy.
There is no real evidence for "al-Qaeda" however. It's a myth created by the American CIA and US Military for reasons of post-cold war era geopolitical maneuvering.
[url=http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20722.htm]Was America Attacked by Muslims on 9/11?[/url] By David Ray Griffin
Demonizing specific ethnic groups for the purpose of scapegoating is one of the hallmarks of fascism.
And of course, you can't extricate this action from the campaign of violence and aggression the West has waged against Muslim nations for a decade (or half century, take your pick)
Well, there was that seige of Jerusalem in 1099, and more recently, the 19th-century British invasions of Afghanistan and India. Of course we musn't forget the 1915 Gallipoli campaign and the attack on the Levant in 1917 and the subsequent division of land in 1919 that led to the current problems in the Middle East.
Yeah but those actions, aside from Jerusalem in 1099, have more to do with imperialist expansion and taking natural resources possessed by non European peoples than "attacking Islam because it's Islam and it's here"...
Today's Islamaphobia is more based on targeting Muslims who live here (in the USA for this thread) and the real motive is not "becouse they hate us". I suspect it's being used or drummed up if you will by political charlatans and other fringe groups to push their agenda which is ultimately aimed at ensuring President Obama is a one term president. As with anything like this in the USA it's the usual suspects that are being very vocal about this, whipping up hysteria and are quick to take advantage of the Bill of Rights to do so... while of course attack others for exercising their rights to use it.
This is more about politics than a genuine hatred of Islam; I challenge you to find one supporter of this "phobia" who also supports President Obama... you won't find one. And whys that?
Howard Dean.
This puppet little Pastor from Florida, is way too convenient of a tool, to further Islamophobia by the talking heads, to be accidental.
The final weight that swayed me on his being a plant to stir shit was MacKay, jumping into the mix.
And of course, you can't extricate this action from the campaign of violence and aggression the West has waged against Muslim nations for a decade (or half century, take your pick)Well, there was that seige of Jerusalem in 1099, and more recently, the 19th-century British invasions of Afghanistan and India. ...
fairly selective history, Al: it's more two-sided than that
Muslim forces also penetrated to the heart of Europe twice, and came within a hair of conquering a major Western capital, Vienna:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vienna
a neat sidestep
well, I will meet you and raise:
European expansion was more a case of forces that were Christian than Christian forces
Howard Dean.
I don't think so...
http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/gop-silent-about-quran-burnings/6...
That was more a case of forces that were Muslim than "Muslim forces." The upside was that the croissant was invented to honour the seige. At the same time, Christendom was expanding its magic empire of love all over the planet.
a neat sidestep
well, I will meet you and raise:
European expansion was more a case of forces that were Christian than Christian forces
The Jesuits must have found that confusing
White House officials have discussed the possibility of calling a Florida pastor to urge him to drop a plan to burn copies of the Qur'an.
"There are discussions inside the government about the possibility of doing that. I don't know that a final decision has been reached on doing that," White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said at a news briefing Thursday.
Pastor Terry Jones, head of the Dove World Outreach Center of Gainesville, Fla., plans to lead the burning of the Muslim holy book on Sept. 11, the ninth anniversary of the attacks against the United States. Jones has insisted the burning will go ahead, despite widespread condemnation and appeals to the church to cancel the event.
In an interview Wednesday with USA Today, Jones said he had not been contacted by the White House, State Department or Pentagon. If he were, he said, "that would cause us to definitely think it over. That's what we're doing now. I don't think a call from them is something we would ignore."
In an interview Wednesday with USA Today, Jones said he had not been contacted by the White House, State Department or Pentagon. If he were, he said, "that would cause us to definitely think it over. That's what we're doing now. I don't think a call from them is something we would ignore."
{venting} What this guy doesn't watch the fucking news?
I'm willing to bet there's more counter protesters there than book burners... which will be a good thing.
Where's one of those fire fighting planes that drops water when you need it.
Howard Dean.
I don't think so...
http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/gop-silent-about-quran-burnings/6...
I do .....
http://freedomeden.blogspot.com/2010/08/howard-dean-ground-zero-mosque.html
European expansion was more a case of forces that were Christian than Christian forces
The Jesuits must have found that confusing
some basic Canadian history: Jacques Cartier planted the flag at Gaspe in 1534, claiming the territory for the King of France;
the Jesuits then arrived in New France in ... 1625; a bit of lag time, eh?
like, uh, a century
So the Jesuits didn't participate in the colonisation of European conquests?
I'm not sure to what extent they enforced conversion. Did Christian missionaries "enforce" conversion on those conquered or did conversion follow as a matter of process? There really is no value in comparing the relative degree of evil between empires. All empires require expansion and expansion requires violence.
@ DaveW
The Jesuits were only founded in the 1540s. I suspect they had to hold a few bake sales before they got organized enough to start doing outreach work.
Cortez's campaign (1520) on the other hand had two standing orders for the people they met - stop human sacrifice and worship Jesus. They weren't so forthcoming about the fact they were taking the land for Spain.
And speaking of naval campaigns, we're drifting a bit.
I'm not sure to what extent they enforced conversion.
Massively. (I hasten to add that this in no way justifies or ameliorates the historical crimes of the european or american imperial powers and their religious justifications and collaborators. I don't know why anyone would think it would but I have learned that they do.)
So the Jesuits didn't participate in the colonisation of European conquests?
The conquering Muslim forces enforced conversions on historically Christian populations in vast areas of the globe. I'm not defending the actions of Christian forces. What they did was atrocious and indefensible. I'm just saying that muslim forces also behaved very badly and most people don't seem to be aware of this, or perhaps they just ignore it. You don't need to falsify history to oppose imperialism. In fact, it will undermine your cause in the long term.
P.S. That pastor is an idiot and this is indeed a symptom of something dark and evil. Calling it "Islamophobia" seems a tad simplistic - basically a George Bush type of political analysis - but who am I to question the one true doctrine?
I do .....
http://freedomeden.blogspot.com/2010/08/howard-dean-ground-zero-mosque.html
To each their own. I fail to see where he's being phobic about the mosque or Islam... and he does not support the burning.
I do .....
http://freedomeden.blogspot.com/2010/08/howard-dean-ground-zero-mosque.html
To each their own. I fail to see where he's being phobic about the mosque or Islam... and he does not support the burning.
Really, so what do you figure the connection is between the 9/11 attackers and the mosque that would lead Dean to make the connection between them and side in any way with the anti-mosque crew?
If there's no connection, then why ever come to the conclusion that there would need to be a compromise?
If you wanted to build a supermarket near GZ, would it be fair for Dean to ask you to compromise and not build near GZ? If not why not?
Provocative Behavior: Pertinent Concerns Over the Burning of Korans
http://www.chris-floyd.com/articles/1-latest-news/2021-provocative-behav...
"One wonders if the actual burning and slaughtering of actual human beings in the Muslim world --covertly and overtly, in country after country, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year -- by the highest, most honored, respected and powerful worthies of American society [and CANADA!] might just possibly incite more violence and ill will against us than the burning of a few books by a marginal, powerless goober down in Florida.."
American Psychopaths
http://leninology.blogspot.com/2010/09/american-psychopaths.html
"In Afghanistan, American soldiers organise 'kill teams', or death squads as they used to be called - to murder civilians,,"
and I'm sure our own JTF2 'Kill teams' have a few trophies of their own..
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/09/09/united-states-obama-quran-burni...
Now this creep will get to act like he actually accomplished something with his stunt.
How soon do you think it will be before he gets his own TV show, or winds up on a GOP ticket?
(edit)
I have just read some reports that the minister's claim is false, and that the Centre in New York is not moving
Two separate concerns:
1)why use the term 'Islamophobia' instead of "anti-Muslim bigotry" or anything else? 'Phobia' would imply something psychological, not conveniently/cynically political; Fox New a year ago was almost celebrating the so-called Ground Zero mosque and is only now against it due to a ramp up by other conservatives.
2) for those who have any spare cash, why not organize a 'buy a Qu'ran' day on Saturday?
Hi 2dawall.
1. Don't get me started. "Islamophobia" and "homophobia" as descriptive terms make my brain explode with the inaccuracy of it all. But that would be thread drift.
2. Someone's already on it (Facebook group). What else you got? 
Thanks for the link! But the bigot backed down. The burning has been called off and the bizarre preacher makes a weird claim that he did it in exchange for the move of the proposed mosque, a claim denied by a backer of the mosque.
That was a lie by the good Christian pastor ... there was no deal to move the mosque .. there was an agreement to meet in NY to talk about the Koran burning issues but there was never any offer (nor will there ever be, as the Imam just clarified on MSNBC) to move the mosque.
If there's no connection, then why ever come to the conclusion that there would need to be a compromise?
Asking for a compromise is hardly the Islamphobia I think we are trying to talk about here and we see coming from the right (whom you've seem to have posted from) and the Tea Party types. Dean also says positive things about Muslims so I'd hardly consider him a raging phobic like we're starting to see more of on TV.
As I've said before the real "hate" is being politically driven with an eye on this November's congressional elections and the next presidential election. I don't know if you are in the USA or not but I am and I can see it.
It's sad and stupid at the same time. On a positive note more and more people I talk to about this, at work and such, are getting tired of this and are starting to see the poison... even most of the Republicans I know... although they still try and hang on they are realizing they are getting painted into an ugly corner and most are looking for a way out.. That is kind' a funny really.
Yup; cornered badgers are hilarious.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/09/09/united-states-obama-quran-burni...
So now he expects the Imam in New York to "back up one of his own men" (because of course all them Muslims get to speak for each other) and do whatever he thinks he was told by Imam Muhammad Musri down in Florida.
Do you think if I call the press and tell them the burning is off he'll do what I say because I am "one of his own men?"
Cornered badger is right. At least now he's saying it is on hold, so hopefully he is just looking for any way to back out of this mess.
The minister of a Florida church said he is now rethinking his earlier decision to call off plans to burn copies of the Qur'an.
Terry Jones had announced at a news conference in Gainesville, Fla., that he had decided to call off the event because the person behind the effort to build an Islamic centre near Ground Zero had agreed to move its location.
But later Thursday night, Jones said that the imam he thought he made the deal with "clearly clearly lied to us" about moving the centre.
I think I will make a point of reading some of the Qur'an on Saturday.
Does Pastor Jones know?
Military personnel threw away, and ultimately burned, confiscated Bibles that were printed in the two most common Afghan languages amid concern they would be used to try to convert Afghans, a Defense Department spokesman said Tuesday.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/us.military.bibles.burne...
If there's no connection, then why ever come to the conclusion that there would need to be a compromise?
Asking for a compromise is hardly the Islamphobia I think we are trying to talk about here and we see coming from the right (whom you've seem to have posted from) and the Tea Party types. Dean also says positive things about Muslims so I'd hardly consider him a raging phobic like we're starting to see more of on TV.
As I've said before the real "hate" is being politically driven with an eye on this November's congressional elections and the next presidential election. I don't know if you are in the USA or not but I am and I can see it.
It's sad and stupid at the same time. On a positive note more and more people I talk to about this, at work and such, are getting tired of this and are starting to see the poison... even most of the Republicans I know... although they still try and hang on they are realizing they are getting painted into an ugly corner and most are looking for a way out.. That is kind' a funny really.
You're not answering my question ... what is the connection between the 9/11 attackers and the mosque?
Unless you can come up with some kind of valid connection I don't see how a "compromise" plays into the issue, and asking for one is not the act of a reasonable person.
The bigotry of the Republicans is obvious so I really am not interested in stating the obvious over and over again that these nutbars are a bunch of racists asshats ... but seems some people on the so called left have a problem recognizing a more subtle "reasonable" bigotry.
You're not answering my question... what is the connection between the 9/11 attackers and the mosque?
Unless you can come up with some kind of valid connection I don't see how a "compromise" plays into the issue, and asking for one is not the act of a reasonable person.
The bigotry of the Republicans is obvious so I really am not interested in stating the obvious over and over again that these nutbars are a bunch of racists asshats ... but seems some people on the so called left have a problem recognizing a more subtle "reasonable" bigotry.
Agh I see... I don't want to turn this into another 9-11 thread so I need to think this through carefully; better yet I'll PM you my response/opinion on this after I recover from my hangover this Sunday... or maybe Monday
.
Everyone have a great weekend... do something you enjoy and makes you feel good.
Watch out for the bogeyman, BDC. Elvis bin Laden's minions of doom are everywhere these days.
Indeed part of the point of the cultural centre's location is indeed that they are not related and some of the people associated with it have said as much. this desire to push "them" all in to a "them" camp is tragic and would be self-fulfilling if "they" did not know better. Too bad those that call themselves "us" are having so much trouble seeing that.
Eventually one would hope that the "us" realizes they already include the "them" and the difference loses purpose.
I find the reflexive, intense condemnation of speech on the ground that it will "harm the troops" to be quite creepy and dangerous. Obviously, the calls one heard in that above MSNBC video from Pat Buchanan and others for the "Commander-in-Chief" to forcibly prevent the Pastor's speech is pure authoritarianism, but even the reactions that fall short of that -- including the decision of the web hosting company to cease hosting the Church's website -- are quite disturbing. This "endanger-the-Troops" theme has been used to justify everything from demonizing war opposition as vaguely Treasonous to re-writing FOIA to suppress torture photos. We're frequently told that what our Troops fight for is our core freedoms, so demanding that those freedoms be curtailed in the name of the Troops -- either forcibly or through self-censorship -- makes little sense. What actually endangers the Troops by spawning anti-American hatred is what Ted Koppel described: sending them to invade other countries, dropping bombs on civilians with robots from the sky, imprisoning the invaded populations without due process and torturing them, etc. etc. Those who claim to be so concerned by the welfare of Our Troops would be well advised to oppose those policies rather than demanding that American citizens refrain from expressing their views on U.S. soil. Burning Korans is a repellent thing to do because of how bigoted and hateful it is, not because it harms our war efforts.
[url=http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/10/blood/index...
Catchfire made Greenwald's point upthread, as did Wingy with the cartoon he posted.
It seems that the attitude in the USA is it's OK to hate Muslims, as long as you don't crow about it so loud that Muslims will notice. Of course, those who hold this attitude are oblivious to the effects of decades of US violence against the people of the Middle East, which has done the job of hundreds of book-burnings.
Why can't Obama say, "You're wrong to burn the Koran because it's a hateful act," rather than ask that these yahoos don't put US soldiers in danger? Why can't Obama say, "Well no, I'm not a Muslim, but so what if I were?"
Let me make this perfectly clear, let there be no mistake, we are not at war against Islam. We are at war against some Islamic peoples. It is okay to equate Islam with terrorism as that delegitimizes their resistance. It is okay to equate Islam with backwardness and cruelty as that supports the narrative we employ to invade their nations, kill their citizens, and seize their resources. But it is not okay to burn their holy book, the Quran, because other Islamic peoples can stand aside as we bomb other Islamic peoples just so long as we are waging war against people who are Islamic rather than Islam itself. It is a fine line and we must tread carefully. As your president, I can't denounce the demonizing of Muslims and attacks on their mosques as a hateful expression of racism, but I can, and indeed I must, denounce the burning of the Quran as a danger to our troops who are presently engaged in the mission of killing Islamic people in many different parts of the world. Because, to defend Muslims would undermine my moral authority as president while defending the troops strengthens it. I say to all Americans in these difficult times of conflict, if you really need to burn a book, burn the constitution. We have.
Pres. Barack H. Obama.
good one WingNut!
Where's the "like" button?
