Class Identity

Timebandit wrote:

Oh, I think class is alive and well and something nobody wants to address in Canada.  We don't have a problem confronting the idea that racism exists here, or sexism.  But class?  No.  We don't like to acknowledge it.

I think it's a soft thing to assess at the best of times.  There are many different permutations, many of which have been pointed out.  There's attitude toward education, level of education, type of work, general values, what we do or do not take for granted.  Race and sex both intersect with different permutations in different ways.

I think I was aware of class discrimination earlier than sex discrimination.  I mean, I knew a few vague bits about feminism, but the first time I was ever told I couldn't do something or didn't belong somewhere it was based on my class (essentially what my parents did for a living and their education levels) and not on my gender - my high school career counsellor told me not to go to university despite the marks and aptitude for academics.  I also ran up against class distinctions in university itself, sometimes from fellow students, sometimes from a prof.  Maybe it was because I was in fine arts, which isn't a course of study most working-class kids went into - the few kids I knew who went to university chose things like admin degrees or certificates, or went into engineering or computer science.  It's been mentioned upthread that there are certain codes of behaviour, a certain ease in being upper class, and I would concur.  There are also codes of dress and such that, unless you're exposed to them, you don't necessarily pick up on.  Certainly, my idea of what looked like wealth and class were different, and I was mercilessly schooled on it in my first two years.

Class is definitely more fluid here than in Europe.  I know that my British extended family is much more lodged in place than we were here.  I grew up working class, but I don't self-identify that way now - not because it's better or worse, but because it seems more honest to say that I am middle-class.  My background has had an effect on how I perceive class, for sure, and has informed my views as a feminist.  I'm not sure how feminist I'd be if I hadn't become as conscious of the existence of class as I did.  They're somewhat inter-related for me.  As are my views on race and how that plays out in the interpersonal.  I realize that may not be the case for a lot of people, but it gave me a context to process the other kinds of oppression.

Funny story - I had started a new job after university and was newly acquainted with another trainee.  She started talking about someone and used the term "north of Dewdney hair" (Dewdney being a line of demarcation between the poorer north end of the city and the wealthier south end).  I was really surprised.  I pointed out that I'd grown up north of Dewdney, and she was utterly floored - I apparently didn't look or sound like a north-ender.  The funniest part was that she was South Asian feminist and had undoubtedly encountered racism and sexism growing up in the south end.  In the end, we had a good laugh about it.

I also find it amusing when people use their working class roots as lefty cred, given the virulently racist and homophobic rants I've heard from some working class acquaintances and family.  I suppose we're all twisted little status monkeys in some form or another, we're just not always aware of it.  So, long ramble short, I think class in itself is a worthy topic of conversation.

I find your description of the experience of class closest to the lived Canadian experience (mine anyway) Timebandit.

Did you also find in university a division between the job hunters and those who were after an understanding of what the hell was going on around them? (It was easier to see the division in the early 70's cornucopia of jobs and education money).

The real sorting is seen in those still active as grads...their positions in society and the way in which they flaunt their ascencion.

George Victor wrote:

Timebandit wrote:

Oh, I think class is alive and well and something nobody wants to address in Canada.  We don't have a problem confronting the idea that racism exists here, or sexism.  But class?  No.  We don't like to acknowledge it.

I think it's a soft thing to assess at the best of times.  There are many different permutations, many of which have been pointed out.  There's attitude toward education, level of education, type of work, general values, what we do or do not take for granted.  Race and sex both intersect with different permutations in different ways.

I think I was aware of class discrimination earlier than sex discrimination.  I mean, I knew a few vague bits about feminism, but the first time I was ever told I couldn't do something or didn't belong somewhere it was based on my class (essentially what my parents did for a living and their education levels) and not on my gender - my high school career counsellor told me not to go to university despite the marks and aptitude for academics.  I also ran up against class distinctions in university itself, sometimes from fellow students, sometimes from a prof.  Maybe it was because I was in fine arts, which isn't a course of study most working-class kids went into - the few kids I knew who went to university chose things like admin degrees or certificates, or went into engineering or computer science.  It's been mentioned upthread that there are certain codes of behaviour, a certain ease in being upper class, and I would concur.  There are also codes of dress and such that, unless you're exposed to them, you don't necessarily pick up on.  Certainly, my idea of what looked like wealth and class were different, and I was mercilessly schooled on it in my first two years.

Class is definitely more fluid here than in Europe.  I know that my British extended family is much more lodged in place than we were here.  I grew up working class, but I don't self-identify that way now - not because it's better or worse, but because it seems more honest to say that I am middle-class.  My background has had an effect on how I perceive class, for sure, and has informed my views as a feminist.  I'm not sure how feminist I'd be if I hadn't become as conscious of the existence of class as I did.  They're somewhat inter-related for me.  As are my views on race and how that plays out in the interpersonal.  I realize that may not be the case for a lot of people, but it gave me a context to process the other kinds of oppression.

Funny story - I had started a new job after university and was newly acquainted with another trainee.  She started talking about someone and used the term "north of Dewdney hair" (Dewdney being a line of demarcation between the poorer north end of the city and the wealthier south end).  I was really surprised.  I pointed out that I'd grown up north of Dewdney, and she was utterly floored - I apparently didn't look or sound like a north-ender.  The funniest part was that she was South Asian feminist and had undoubtedly encountered racism and sexism growing up in the south end.  In the end, we had a good laugh about it.

I also find it amusing when people use their working class roots as lefty cred, given the virulently racist and homophobic rants I've heard from some working class acquaintances and family.  I suppose we're all twisted little status monkeys in some form or another, we're just not always aware of it.  So, long ramble short, I think class in itself is a worthy topic of conversation.

 

I find your description of the experience of class closest to the lived Canadian experience (mine anyway) Timebandit.

Did you also find in university a division between the job hunters and those who were after an understanding of what the hell was going on around them? (It was easier to see the division in the early 70's cornucopia of jobs and education money).

The real sorting is seen in those still active as grads...their positions in society and the way in which they flaunt their ascencion.

Yes, well you were privileged to live in that world George, where you could choose to pursue education for the sake of education. Today one needs a BA to get a job cleaning toilets.

Cueball wrote:

George Victor wrote:

Timebandit wrote:

Oh, I think class is alive and well and something nobody wants to address in Canada.  We don't have a problem confronting the idea that racism exists here, or sexism.  But class?  No.  We don't like to acknowledge it.

I think it's a soft thing to assess at the best of times.  There are many different permutations, many of which have been pointed out.  There's attitude toward education, level of education, type of work, general values, what we do or do not take for granted.  Race and sex both intersect with different permutations in different ways.

I think I was aware of class discrimination earlier than sex discrimination.  I mean, I knew a few vague bits about feminism, but the first time I was ever told I couldn't do something or didn't belong somewhere it was based on my class (essentially what my parents did for a living and their education levels) and not on my gender - my high school career counsellor told me not to go to university despite the marks and aptitude for academics.  I also ran up against class distinctions in university itself, sometimes from fellow students, sometimes from a prof.  Maybe it was because I was in fine arts, which isn't a course of study most working-class kids went into - the few kids I knew who went to university chose things like admin degrees or certificates, or went into engineering or computer science.  It's been mentioned upthread that there are certain codes of behaviour, a certain ease in being upper class, and I would concur.  There are also codes of dress and such that, unless you're exposed to them, you don't necessarily pick up on.  Certainly, my idea of what looked like wealth and class were different, and I was mercilessly schooled on it in my first two years.

Class is definitely more fluid here than in Europe.  I know that my British extended family is much more lodged in place than we were here.  I grew up working class, but I don't self-identify that way now - not because it's better or worse, but because it seems more honest to say that I am middle-class.  My background has had an effect on how I perceive class, for sure, and has informed my views as a feminist.  I'm not sure how feminist I'd be if I hadn't become as conscious of the existence of class as I did.  They're somewhat inter-related for me.  As are my views on race and how that plays out in the interpersonal.  I realize that may not be the case for a lot of people, but it gave me a context to process the other kinds of oppression.

Funny story - I had started a new job after university and was newly acquainted with another trainee.  She started talking about someone and used the term "north of Dewdney hair" (Dewdney being a line of demarcation between the poorer north end of the city and the wealthier south end).  I was really surprised.  I pointed out that I'd grown up north of Dewdney, and she was utterly floored - I apparently didn't look or sound like a north-ender.  The funniest part was that she was South Asian feminist and had undoubtedly encountered racism and sexism growing up in the south end.  In the end, we had a good laugh about it.

I also find it amusing when people use their working class roots as lefty cred, given the virulently racist and homophobic rants I've heard from some working class acquaintances and family.  I suppose we're all twisted little status monkeys in some form or another, we're just not always aware of it.  So, long ramble short, I think class in itself is a worthy topic of conversation.

 

I find your description of the experience of class closest to the lived Canadian experience (mine anyway) Timebandit.

Did you also find in university a division between the job hunters and those who were after an understanding of what the hell was going on around them? (It was easier to see the division in the early 70's cornucopia of jobs and education money).

The real sorting is seen in those still active as grads...their positions in society and the way in which they flaunt their ascencion.

Yes, well you were privileged to live in that world George, where you could choose to pursue education for the sake of education. Today one needs a BA to get a job cleaning toilets.

You will see that I "admitted" to such privilege, and gave it a date,Cue (after losing out on a strike where I'd walked around in the snow with a placard all winter....yeah, I was privileged).  Hell, the university had excess money and paid me twice the money first offered as a teaching assistant, summer of '70.  But I'd had to sell my old farm up in Lanark County to start my school experience again. 

And anyone can sell out their holdings at age 31 and start over...if there aren't kids or other dependents.

Try finding another outlet for your animosity, Cue.

George Victor wrote:

Did you also find in university a division between the job hunters and those who were after an understanding of what the hell was going on around them? (It was easier to see the division in the early 70's cornucopia of jobs and education money).

Unfortunately almost all of the people who fall into that second camp are those who are wealthy enough to not worry, or over 65 and attending classes for free. For the rest of us you can't walk in the door of a university without the prospect of a job to pay for it at the end. It is not education; sadly, it is an investment.

When I went to school a full course load was around $500. For a friend of mine who attended 10 years earlier, it was $125. I have no idea what it is now, and I don't think I would ever go back (at least not until it's free in another 16 years). I had the luxury of taking some courses simply because they interested me, and as it happened my actual career had nothing to do with my intentions when I first went to school. Also, when I made that decision I was able to walk away from my studies without the burden of a crushing debt, and I did not see it as a waste of time although I did not leave with a piece of paper.

It's a shame too, because in other countries where access is not as limited by income or signing up for indentured slavery universities are centres for political organizing to a far greater degree (for the whole community - not just students) than they are here. Also, I don't get on campus much, so I can't compare political activity now to what it was 30 years ago.

George Victor wrote:

It's not about "salad days" Cue, it's about a historical event/period. Helped to remove the class consciousness of the immediate postwar and the 50s, of course.

Ahh. Now I see what you are saying.

Timebandit wrote:

Back in the '80s it was still possible to work your way through.  Difficult, for sure, but possible - and that's what I did.

Same here (81-83). It would be absolutely impossible nowadays. And that  (plus the fact that you can't do it without that job payoff at the end) bodes ill for the concept of learning as opposed to training.

I really like this thread. But I have to close for length. Please start another.