Discuss
Edited by Maysie to include the link to the previous thread on this topic.
Class Identity, Too.
Fri, 2010-09-24 14:49
#1
Class Identity, Too.
Fri, 2010-09-24 13:08
#2
Catchfire
One thing I noticed when living in Scotland, was the heightened class consciousness. The effect of this heigtened identification was two fold: one, it meant that people identified their class much more clearly, and there was less stigma--the working class had working-class pride; on the other hand, it also meant that class divides were far more entrenched, with all classes operating in their own insulated bubble and upper/aristocratic class snobbery which seemed impervious to progress, and working or impoverished classes with little hope of improving their lot. There was little truck or exchange between the classes.
In North America, where there is less class consiousness, there are also two effects, but they are opposites. Most people, irrespective of their real economic situation, consider themselves middle class. The obverse of this is their is less open disdain for the poor (which is not, obviously, to say it doesn't exist, it is just articulated in a less aristocratic, more liberal way) and less contempt and mockery for the rich by the poorer classes. At least, those were my tiny observations.
Fri, 2010-09-24 13:13
#3
Its one of the reasons my mom left england Catchfire. After being around the world seeing different cultures in WWII, she couldnt stomach going back to the rigid class structures and moved.
Fortunately for me 
Fri, 2010-09-24 13:36
#4
The capitalist dictate to 'become someone' or 'do something' serves to exacerbate the fatal defect at its core, by perpetually marketing new and improved levels of pathological selfishness which are considered vital in order to simply maintain its current condition. The class structure itself is a summons to adapt within an enduring framework of deterioration, where conditions of weakness, depression, self doubt and degrees of abject misery become the reward for those who are categorized as less flexible and productive to the requirements of the system.
Paradoxically, those who would describe themselves as the most productive and agile members of society can also be found among the more loyal consumers of capital's latest pharmaceutical nostrums, which are devised to ward off the endemic risk of personal collapse which typically shadows anyone consumed by their status within the present order of things, especially those who dare to rest and take stock of the destruction surrounding them.
The temptation of upward class mobility means that everyone applying themselves to that end uses the here and now as a thoroughfare to somewhere else, leading inevitably to a perpetual state of exile from the present and from one another. Survival comes by way of trampling the present while creating individualized bubbles which require constant renovation in order to compete with the conformity surrounding everything, while at the same time providing us with the portable means of being able to float around from place to place in search of anything vaguely familiar.
In the meantime elitism has adapted itself from the insidious peerage based class structure. It has now congealed as an economic construct, where estrangement and the perpetual requirement for unsustainable growth are driven forward in tandem as never before, with humanity firmly attached to the bumper and dragged along for the ride. Never before has there been such a conditioning designed to cultivate wholesale indifference to the fact that this society is able to coast along without a seconds consideration for so many of the people existing in it.
Fri, 2010-09-24 13:42
#5
Timebandit
My goodness, Slumberjack, as someone who has moved from one class to another in my lifetime and really does want to "do something" with my life, I had no idea how miserable and close to collapse I am...
Fri, 2010-09-24 13:45
#6
My goodness, Slumberjack, as someone who has moved from one class to another in my lifetime and really does want to "do something" with my life, I had no idea how miserable and close to collapse I am..
You should see me on Mondays. The accusation of my anti-social demeanor only lasts until people get to know me, but still, it does merit some consideration when I sit down to write.
Fri, 2010-09-24 13:46
#7
Nil illegitimi carborundum was invented to save the day in such situations.
Fri, 2010-09-24 13:49
#8
Ahh..the stiff upper lip.
Fri, 2010-09-24 14:10
#9
I like to think of it as the spirit of the Tommy when he sang Bless Them All,..Bless all the Sergeants and WO one's, etc. It was the obduratness of a class that survived WITHOUT the pharmacy nearby, required later by the aspiring classes. One thing that I've come to be really impressed by...the way in which so many accepted that half-a-loaf. Whatever happend to that? Was it the influence of TV? :)
Fri, 2010-09-24 14:32
#10
One thing that I've come to be really impressed by...the way in which so many accepted that half-a-loaf. Whatever happend to that? Was it the influence of TV? :)
It never went away. For many, those sentiments were rendered from an acceptance of status quo survival techniques into an acceptance of mediocre political representation. Saturation media, from tycoon controlled fish wrappers, radio and TV certainly performed its role exceedingly well, which was to replicate the experience of occasional window shopping excursions as everyday conditioning for the parlour.
Fri, 2010-09-24 14:50
#11
One thing I noticed when living in Scotland, was the heightened class consciousness.
Actually a friend of mine ( born and raised in Scotland) went back there to teach for a time. She noticed an odd tension in the air with her class, and when she eventually broached the subject one of the braver students stood up and said "we were wondering why you don't beat us".
Truth is stranger than fiction.
I think one of the telling things about class is what a person's perception and reaction to authority is: whether one feels self-confident and unthreatened by police, arms of government, CFS, Revenue Canada, and of course bosses, or whether one does not feel targetted and threatened, and acts in a self-assured way.
And hopefully I can stave off the brickbats by acknowledging that all those arms of authority DO have a real threatening and controlling aspect that is not applied to everyone equally.
I know how some people can be completely undone by thinking that any interaction with authority automatically means suspicion and threat. Often that is real, but I know from personal experience that some people compound that problem when there is actualy no reason to fear. That is how it has been for part of my family, anyway.
And a small personal example. I didn't actually have any credit rating at all until 10 years ago when I moved to Vancouver, where one needs to have a credit card to do anything, including renting a video. When I spoke to the fellow at the credit union during my application interview I said "at least having no credit rating is better than having a bad one". "That's not actually true," he said.
A couple of years later I tried to take out money while I was cashing a cheque, and the teller noticed that my account had been red-flagged to prevent that., even though that restriction is usually removed after six months. She took it off with a press of a button, but I realized that this guy (whom I had a funny feeling about) had decided to put a leash on me simply based on that statement and his perception of me, even though I have never defaulted on a bill payment in my life.
class
Fri, 2010-09-24 16:21
#12
One thing that I've come to be really impressed by...the way in which so many accepted that half-a-loaf. Whatever happend to that? Was it the influence of TV? :)It never went away. For many, those sentiments were rendered from an acceptance of status quo survival techniques into an acceptance of mediocre political representation. Saturation media, from tycoon controlled fish wrappers, radio and TV certainly performed its role exceedingly well, which was to replicate the experience of occasional window shopping excursions as everyday conditioning for the parlour.
You lost me, Sj. Not for the first time.
Fri, 2010-09-24 16:43
#13
I'm just returning the favour George.
Fri, 2010-09-24 17:32
#14
Thanks heaps. But half-a-loaf didn't seem like the basis for a confusing treatise. 
Sat, 2010-09-25 01:46
#15
One thing I noticed when living in Scotland, was the heightened class consciousness. The effect of this heigtened identification was two fold: one, it meant that people identified their class much more clearly, and there was less stigma--the working class had working-class pride; on the other hand, it also meant that class divides were far more entrenched, with all classes operating in their own insulated bubble and upper/aristocratic class snobbery which seemed impervious to progress, and working or impoverished classes with little hope of improving their lot. There was little truck or exchange between the classes.
In North America, where there is less class consiousness, there are also two effects, but they are opposites. Most people, irrespective of their real economic situation, consider themselves middle class. The obverse of this is their is less open disdain for the poor (which is not, obviously, to say it doesn't exist, it is just articulated in a less aristocratic, more liberal way) and less contempt and mockery for the rich by the poorer classes. At least, those were my tiny observations.
Enjoyable post, very clear and readable. As a Torontonian I hear tell about class in the UK and your post expresses it.
Sat, 2010-09-25 02:16
#16
autoworker
Most people I encounter would probably roll their eyes at the mention of 'class' conciousness-- but are almost always attuned to the notion of 'status' (those gifted with the grace of the creator, or from other planets, usually are not).
Sat, 2010-09-25 07:29
#17
Catchfire: "In North America, where there is less class consiousness, there are also two effects, but they are opposites. Most people, irrespective of their real economic situation, consider themselves middle class. The obverse of this is their is less open disdain for the poor (which is not, obviously, to say it doesn't exist, it is just articulated in a less aristocratic, more liberal way) and less contempt and mockery for the rich by the poorer classes. At least, those were my tiny observations."
Close to half of working Canadians are apparently just one paycheque away from being unable to pay the bills. I believe that plays into feelings for others, and why people on the bottom end of the pay scale are - proportionately - more generous with financial help to others.
I think it's called fear..."but for the grace of God go I " ....etc. That fear certainly affects voting patterns.
Sat, 2010-09-25 19:35
#18
N.Beltov
1. Monthly Review webzine, or the magazine itself, had an article outlining how social mobility had declined so much in the USA that, the authors argued, the USA had more of a class structure than most European countries. The data backing the claim was very solid.
A link here would be good since so many of those posting on this, and the previous, thread, have provided anecdotal evidence and claims that seem to contradict this recent trend. Let me see what I can find.
2. I was in a discussion recently in which someone claimed that "lower", "middle" and "upper" class were the best terms to describe social class. To me, this is simply psychologizing social class - so that it becomes a subjective pile of crap in which a person's opinion about their own social class is all that matters - and trivializing an objective phenomenon into a subjective one. We see this practice in orthodox/bourgeois/classical/neo-classical economics all the time.
Social class is objective reality. What people THINK about it or what class they (personally) might belong to - and we've had buckets of that on these threads - is actually a secondary question. Substituting a discussion about how I "feel" about social class over what the reality is ... this is possibly the most thoroughly bourgeois approach possible.
3. 6079_Smith_W ... Thanks for sharing. Marx had an interesting comment about credit. "Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a (person)."
4. It bears repeating that advertising and marketing under capitalism in North America (US and Canada only) is a trillion dollar a year industry. Yes, TRILLION AS IN A THOUSAND BILLION. It is one of the "big 5" industries. This entire industry is dedicated to altering the consciousness of the citizenry, turning them into consuming zombies by the millions, tens of millions, and hundreds of millions. When we talk about the sprouts of class consciousness we need to bear in mind this elephant in the room. Elephant, hell. Death Star in the room.
Sat, 2010-09-25 22:58
#19
@ N.Beltov
No problem.
I hear you about the advertising and marketing, but it is important to remember it is a two-edged sword. On the one hand it is the greatest source of brainwashing in our society. On the other hand, very little in our public sphere can operate without it. Not print and broadcast media, not art organizations, and not public events and festivals.
I buy ads for my business, and I have sold ads and sponsorships for events and for publications. It is a GOOD thing that brings people together for good causes. Of course I am also aware of the giant red-haired clown in the room, and I know that a good portion of that trillion is not going efforts that help people. I try to keep my kids as far away from it as possible.
To bring it back to the subject of class, I don't think there is any way to counter the brainwashing effect of modern advertising except to beat them at their own game and do it better. Fortunately with the internet we have the means to do that nowdays without having to shell out millions of dollars. It's possible for a guy to write a song about an airline breaking his guitar and have it heard around the world.
The only thing I can think of in past societies that had that kind of power to even the playing field a bit was some writers and artists . But nowadays anyone who has an internet connection and is savvy enough has all the power that is needed.
Sat, 2010-09-25 23:35
#20
N.Beltov
Wal Mart has a documented history of demanding their US employees collect food stamps and other social benefits so the great smily face doesn't have to pay them as much. It really is a death star.
Sat, 2010-09-25 23:37
#21
Wal Mart has a documented history of demanding their US employees collect food stamps and other social benefits so the great smily face doesn't have to pay them as much. It really is a death star.
They tried to talk our city into taking money out of our library budget to build an overpass to their new store. They failed.
Sat, 2010-09-25 23:40
#22
I just realized I could have said the giand smiley face in the room (since Walmart is the biggest corporation in the world).
As it Happens had comment last week from a Walmart manager who noticed the high number of people who came in to shop around 11 at night and start checking out right at midnight. Obviously it meant two things, he said:
People were waiting until midnight because that was the time at which cheques were deposited into their accounts.
The things they were buying (he mentioned diapers and food) were things they were doing without, and had to buy as soon as money became available.
Odd that a Walmart rep should be pointing out poverty issues in a way that makes them seem sympathetic to the poor. I can only wonder if he was aware of the irony and hypocrisy in his making that statement.
(edit)
Cross-posted with you, N. Beltov
Of course, and of course. I agree.
The only thing is there is not too much more fun, satisfying and effective, than skewering someone (who is asking for it) on his own shiskebab.
One good moment of ridicule can often do the job when pages and pages of analysis does not.
(edit)
My main point - the battle will never be won by turning our backs on the power of the media to inform and raise awareness. And the power to use that is available now in ways that it has never been before.
Sat, 2010-09-25 23:46
#23
N.Beltov
This death star = W-M smily face idea might actually have some legs. And seeing it "blowed up real good" just warms my heart.
Sat, 2010-09-25 23:50
#24
This death star = W-M smily face idea might actually have some legs. And seeing it "blowed up real good" just warms my heart.
And suitably ironic since they stole that too, from Harvey Ball.
Sat, 2010-09-25 23:52
#25
N.Beltov
Other approaches are possible as well and should be noted.
A. The Province of Quebec, for example, has banned advertising to children under 13. This is outstanding and there should be more of it. Children 8 years and under, for example, by and large are not able to distinguish persuasive intent in a commercial. Everything is a "fact" to them. Therefore, protecting children from the predatory actions of advertisers - especially but not only children 8 and under - should be automatic. It is a strange thing that other animal species protect their young as a matter of course; we humans, under capitalism anyway, allow predators access to children. It's a strange world we live in.
B. "beat them at their own game and do it better" is, in my view, questionable. Consciousness raising, raising class awareness and class consciousness has a purpose other than selling a product to people who are encouraged not only to buy the product but also, implicitly, to think of themselves as consumers and not as citizens. The whole point is to mobilize the citizenry to change the world, to change society, to empower them, to increase democracy, to put a beat down on misogyny, racism and all the other capitalist "blessings" and bigotry. The mobilizing is the key; consciousness changing is aimed at this. We are not talking about food for the brain (as the Buddhists might say) and that's it. So I agree there's need for "other messages" to get out, of course, but I think it is mistaken to couch things only in such terms.
B. continued .... Edited to add: See, for example, Building Coalitions to create mass movements: Lessons from the Ontario Health Coalition by Auzzie Amanda Tattersall
Sat, 2010-09-25 23:55
#26
They tried to talk our city into taking money out of our library budget to build an overpass to their new store. They failed.
Stonebridge? There's an overpass there. The money came from somewhere.
I live within walking distance of that abomination, yet I'll drive to the north end to go to stores that exist in "Stonebridge."
I once advocated on my radio show that the Dundurn artillery regiment use Stonebridge as target practice. I didn't have one complaining phone call.
Sat, 2010-09-25 23:59
#27
They tried to talk our city into taking money out of our library budget to build an overpass to their new store. They failed.
Stonebridge? There's an overpass there. The money came from somewhere.
I live within walking distance of that abomination, yet I'll drive to the north end to go to stores that exist in "Stonebridge."
I once advocated on my radio show that the Dundurn artillery regiment use Stonebridge as target practice. I didn't have one complaining phone call.
I thought they wound up taking it from general revenue.
And yes, I've never been to any of the stores there. I've only ever been in the development once to make a delivery. The mega church on that strip kind of says it all.
Sun, 2010-09-26 21:30
#28
N.Beltov
I'm repeating what I added upthread as I think I've found the link noted below. Babblers who have posted on this thread about how social class is more significant in Europe than in the US might be very, very surprised by the data that Rick Wolff makes use of here.
"1. Monthly Review webzine, or the magazine itself, had an article outlining how social mobility had declined so much in the USA that, the authors argued, the USA had more of a class structure than most European countries. The data backing the claim was very solid.
A link here would be good since so many of those posting on this, and the previous, thread, have provided anecdotal evidence and claims that seem to contradict this recent trend. Let me see what I can find."
... This is what I found ...
Rising Income Inequality in the US: Divisive, Depressing, and Dangerous - by Rick Wolff
More from Rick Wolff - Capitalism Hits the Fan
... STill more of interest on this subject ...............
IT'S THE CAPITALISTS, STUPID!!!
Wed, 2010-10-20 02:40
#29
N.Beltov
Canadian Sandy Cameron recently passed away and the CCPA provided a few of his excellent short articles on social class.
They're worth reading ... especially for the those who habitually deny the relevance, or existence, of social class. Which pretty well means the entire NDP establishment.
Wed, 2010-10-20 03:24
#30
There are only two classes of people in Canada who count for anything every four years: those who vote Liberal and Tory and vice versa, and Bay Street. Each of their votes is counted twice every four years.