Chinese dissident chosen by Norwegians for "Peace" prize

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Sun, 2010-10-10 11:51

Rikardo

Munitions millionaire Nobel gave the selection of his "Peace" prize to a committee chosen by the Norwegian parliament. Norway, a proud member of NATO has always been in
the orbit of Washington/London and English is their second language. They
were one of the first to be occupied by Nazi Germany. Several of their
elites were pro-Nazi. Ibsen was Norwegian, and Grieg. And they got their
independence peacefully from Sweden. A model country?

Its not the General Assembly of the UN that anoints the "Peace" winner. Its a elite group of comfortable Norwegians with their Norwegian sensibilites and biases.

Again this year its an English-speaking USA/UK-educated dissident from a country (Iran, Myanmar, China) that's not (yet) part of the Empire. Last year they gave Obama a chance to give a speech justifying US wars, past, present and future. And, of course, he said war is terrible.

Sun, 2010-10-10 11:59

Unionist

So this "dissident" joins the fine company of not only Obomber, but Lech Walesa, Elie Wiesel, the Dalai Lama, Gorbachev, Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin, Al Gore, Andrei Sakharov, Menahem Begin, Henry Kissinger, Lester B. Pearson, Woodrow Wilson, and other great contributors to world "peace".

May he spend his prize money wisely and end up where they did.

Sun, 2010-10-10 12:12

6079_Smith_W

I take your point that the award is often political. Giving it to someone who has done nothing at all - Obama - is a perfect example.

On the other hand, when I heard of Lui Xiaobo's award I thought of two other people who received the award while imprisoned - Carl von Ossietsky and Aung San Suu Kyi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aung_San_Suu_Kyi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_von_Ossietzky

Sun, 2010-10-10 13:15

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Quote:

Minky Worden, director of global initiatives at Human Rights Watch, claimed, “… it’s a very big day for people in China, because in recognizing Liu Xiaobo, the Nobel Committee has decided to highlight the concerns for the rule of law, democracy and human rights, that Liu Xiaobo has fought for for the last twenty years.”3

It is amusing – and of concern — how western media, even media claiming to be independent and progressive, turn to Americans to determine how the people of another country feel instead of asking people from the country in question.4

Is Worden a representative or spokesperson for the Chinese people? Whereby does she then determine what is a big day for Chinese people?

Liu has promulgated a Charter 08 calling for changes in politics and human rights – and entrenchment of property rights! (as if property had rights) — in China.

A Taiwanese News Channel quotes Charter 08 on “the absence of political reforms ‘has restrained the development of the Chinese nation and the progress of human civilization.’ Wen says without political reform as protection, the achievements of economic reforms will slip away.”5

As a Chinese citizen Liu should have the right to criticize his government. He should not be jailed for this. However, that does not mean that Liu — and his 300 to 7200 Charter 08 signatories — represent the will of Chinese people.

Charter 08 appears amiable to most hard right-wing governments. Unless every charter item is defined scrutably, clearly, and without resort to equivocation, the document would have little effect on human rights. Why should it? Why is this Charter 08 needed when China is an original signatory to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? I have never seen this discussed. Besides, which country abides by the UDHR? And if signatories to the UDHR do not abide by the human rights enshrined, why should Charter 08 be any different? So what then is the purpose of the Charter 08?

http://dissidentvoice.org/2010/10/what-purpose-does-the-nobel-prize-serve/

Sun, 2010-10-10 18:11

Stockholm

In past years they have also given the award to Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, Perez Esquivel, Ramos Horta of East Timor, Amnesty International and Rigoberta Menchu and Aun Sang Suu Kyi...and I don't know what slanderous nonsense is being spouted about Norway in the OP. What exactly do Ibsen and Grieg have to do with anything here? They both died long before WW2 and the Norwegian resistence to the Nazis is widely recognized as having been one of the bravest of all.

"Its not the General Assembly of the UN that anoints the "Peace" winner. Its a elite group of comfortable Norwegians with their Norwegian sensibilites and biases." - So??? Everyone and everything has a bias and a sensibility. I think I will take the sensibilities of a social democratic, egalitarian country like Norway over those of just about any other country you care to name!

If the Chinese don't like who the Nobel committee awarded the prize to this year - they can endow a new "Confucius Peace Prize" and let the winner be chosen by a committee of unelected Communist party hacks who sit in the Chinese "parliament" wjhich is just a rubber stamp with no powers whatsoever.

Sun, 2010-10-10 20:41

Fidel

I think the Norwegians are just playing along. [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/26/AR200701.... Zhivago and the CIA[/url]

Deja cold war.

Sun, 2010-10-10 23:57

6079_Smith_W

So the enemy of my enemy's enemy is my enemy.

Gee, I can't figure out why I never made THAT connection before. It's as plain as day, really.

Mon, 2010-10-11 00:07

Fidel

I think there are a number of left wing authors of dissident material right here in Canada and the US who are Nobel worthy.

Mon, 2010-10-11 12:48

N.Beltov

Stockholm wrote:
What exactly do Ibsen and Grieg have to do with anything here? They both died long before WW2 and the Norwegian resistence to the Nazis is widely recognized as having been one of the bravest of all.

Quisling was also a Norwegian whose name has gone down in history as a synonym for obsequious service to the Hitlerite Nazi regime and collaborationism with fascist regimes in general. Very brave.

Mon, 2010-10-11 13:15

#10

6079_Smith_W

Not that I don't have my own suspicions that lutefisk and knackebrot is part of a covert plot, but can we can this anti-Norwegian rhetoric?

I don't know what is worse, the fact that it it outright racism, or that it is an irrelevant and idiotic pile-on.

I'd be more interested in some of the details on how the CIA fixed decisions in favour of Dr. King, and the campaign against landmines, among others.

Mon, 2010-10-11 13:33

#11

RosaL

N.Beltov wrote:

Stockholm wrote:
What exactly do Ibsen and Grieg have to do with anything here? They both died long before WW2 and the Norwegian resistence to the Nazis is widely recognized as having been one of the bravest of all.

Quisling was also a Norwegian whose name has gone down in history as a synonym for obsequious service to the Hitlerite Nazi regime and collaborationism with fascist regimes in general. Very brave.

That's ridiculous. Quisling was in no way typical. Do you know anything about the Norwegian resistance?

I have no respect for the Nobel Prize. None. But why someone who calls himself a marxist would think it made sense to blame a whole people (rather than their ruling class) eludes me entirely.

Mon, 2010-10-11 13:57

#12

Fidel

I think the CIA has a web site and contact information. You could always make an inquiry and ask 'em wazup? Veritas.

Mon, 2010-10-11 14:28

#13

Krago

Fidel is just cranky because his nominee didn't win:

Mon, 2010-10-11 14:45

#14

Fidel

It's not whether you win or lose, it's how your cold war leftover intel agency is able to coerce a Nobel prize committee. They've done the same thing with the ecomomics prize in awarding economists who see things from a corporationist point of view as well as those [url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=1189]economists who see war as a game[/url]. Remember that where western world fascism is concerned, anti-communism and military aggression are their common battle cries. Nobel prizes sometimes have the effect of legitimizing fascism.

Mon, 2010-10-11 20:34

#15

Rikardo

Some of my best friends are Norwegians (well only one) and I know Greig and Ibsen are dead as is Shakespeare although some do say they are alive in their works that they left us and this certainly has some effect on Norwegian and Anglo-Saxon mentalities. Does Norway get away with their choices because of their social-democratic egalitarian image? What if China or Japan or India chose the Peace Prize ? Nobel didn't however choose them and its his money no matter how he made it.

I read "When the Chinese stop laughing the World will cry" by an author in France. If the Nobel object is Peace, perhaps the organizers of the succesful Summer Olympics might have been a choice. They made China proud and less resentful of the boorish treatment of the torch runners in socialist Paris. Chinese people know how the West harassed and humiliated them in the past. And they see what the West is doing in Afghanistan (next door) to promote democracy and human rights.

Mon, 2010-10-11 20:42

#16

Stockholm

This rambling post makes no sense whatsoever.

Mon, 2010-10-11 21:53

#17

mybabble

Unionist wrote:

So this "dissident" joins the fine company of not only Obomber, but Lech Walesa, Elie Wiesel, the Dalai Lama, Gorbachev, Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin, Al Gore, Andrei Sakharov, Menahem Begin, Henry Kissinger, Lester B. Pearson, Woodrow Wilson, and other great contributors to world "peace".

May he spend his prize money wisely and end up where they did.

He is in a Chinese prison and his wife is under house arrest and it wouldn't surprise me if they ended up dead because in China that is what happens when you speak out. Lui deserves this award there is little doubt as China is horrible when it comes to human rights, democracy and freedom of speech as they are seen as the evils of the western world. Did you know China experiences many deaths when it comes to work related injury as mining had over 5000 deaths in one year. That isn't even counting the other industries and related deaths because one thing in China people are as cheap as dirt while the noble peace prize winner could very well end up resting in peace if he continues to tick of the communist country

Mon, 2010-10-11 22:04

#18

mybabble

China wants to rule the world.

Walmart wants to rule the world.

Want to get rid of these lifes suckers just put down anything made in China and it will be the end and jobs will return because nobody needs China needs us as it counts on all those cheap exports it sends around the world.

China may be rich but its people are poor bringing China down, down, down to the level it deserves as counting on exporting to China is a lot of nonsense as the only thing China wants is your precious resources and your economy to go tits up because its a war.

Mon, 2010-10-11 22:05

#19

Ken Burch

I don't get the responses here. China is capitalist. It's not imperialist or reactionary for Chinese people to want free speech. What the hell is this guy calling for that could possibly justify the repression being used against him?

China does not have a government that is, in any sense at all "progressive", so there's no real justification for a "solidarity" response. The fact is, there's no Revolution there to defend anymore.

And I really, really, REALLY hope that nobody here is ok with the Chinese(or anybody else)jailing people just for opposing political repression.

Mon, 2010-10-11 22:44

#20

6079_Smith_W

mybabble wrote:

Want to get rid of these lifes suckers just put down anything made in China and it will be the end and jobs will return because nobody needs China needs us as it counts on all those cheap exports it sends around the world.

While I agree with the need for reform in China, shutting the doors to trade is easier said than done (and it is not something I would agree with, even if it were possible).

Even on the slight chance that you aren't wearing something right now that has come from China, I doubt you could go one day without touching something that has come from there.

Mon, 2010-10-11 23:15

#21

Fidel

And they spy on people using the internet. And they imprison people in China, too.

Tue, 2010-10-12 10:00

#22

voice of the damned

Okay, I was gonna stay out of this, but...

Rikarso wrote:

"Some of my best friends are Norwegians (well only one) and I know Greig and Ibsen are dead as is Shakespeare although some do say they are alive in their works that they left us and this certainly has some effect on Norwegian and Anglo-Saxon mentalities."

What is your psrticular objection to Ibsen? As far as I've always understood, he pretty much invented modern drama, injecting his plays with social issues and critique of authority, even managing to champion feminist ideas in the face of some pretty intense opposition from the conservatives of his day.

Tue, 2010-10-12 10:24

#23

Caissa

Might as well continue the drift:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrik_Ibsen

Tue, 2010-10-12 16:01

#24

RosaL

voice of the damned wrote:

Okay, I was gonna stay out of this, but...

Rikarso wrote:

"Some of my best friends are Norwegians (well only one) and I know Greig and Ibsen are dead as is Shakespeare although some do say they are alive in their works that they left us and this certainly has some effect on Norwegian and Anglo-Saxon mentalities."

What is your psrticular objection to Ibsen? As far as I've always understood, he pretty much invented modern drama, injecting his plays with social issues and critique of authority, even managing to champion feminist ideas in the face of some pretty intense opposition from the conservatives of his day.

The things that affect the mentalities of any people are beyond counting. To pick out one and then say, "and so there is something wrong with their mentality" is absurd. (Even if it were true that Ibsen was somehow malign).

A second point, which you will doubtless ignore, is that a committee decides on the recipient of the Nobel prize. You are attributing that decision to a whole people. Do you see no problem with that? (Why do I bother ....)

Tue, 2010-10-12 17:08

#25

al-Qa'bong

voice of the damned wrote:

Okay, I was gonna stay out of this, but...

Rikarso wrote:

"Some of my best friends are Norwegians (well only one) and I know Greig and Ibsen are dead as is Shakespeare although some do say they are alive in their works that they left us and this certainly has some effect on Norwegian and Anglo-Saxon mentalities."

What is your psrticular objection to Ibsen?

I didn't read this as an objection to Ibsen. By the way, English is full of Norse words, so we're all a little Norwegian inside.

Speaking of Henry Gibson...

Tue, 2010-10-12 20:52

#26

Krago

For those of you interested in such details, four out of the five Nobel Peace Prize Committee members are women.

Tue, 2010-10-12 22:59

#27

George Victor

Krago wrote:

For those of you interested in such details, four out of the five Nobel Peace Prize Committee members are women.

Ah Ha! The plot thickens. (For of course there must be a plot involved in the seemingly simple decision that this poor bastard - who has been asking for the end to one-party rule since Tien An Men Square (1989) - is a martyr in the struggle for human rights. )

Hue to The Line, oh backsliding sons and daughters of international socia...of international... Oh well, what the hell. Anyone associating with, or born in the homeland of Ibsen, MUST be suspect.

Fri, 2010-10-15 16:33

#28

Ken Burch

I STILL haven't seen any rational explanation in this thread about why the choice of this man for the Nobel Peace Prize is some kind of diabolical capitalist plot.

What gives, folks?

Fri, 2010-10-15 17:00

#29

George Victor

Putting China on the spot in this manner (Mao's former secretary has spoken of his embarassment about the absence of freedom to criticize) is not cricket...yet. The new Empire in the East is still to be defined by progressive forces.

Fri, 2010-10-15 18:19

#30

6079_Smith_W

George Victor wrote:

Putting China on the spot in this manner (Mao's former secretary has spoken of his embarassment about the absence of freedom to criticize) is not cricket...yet. The new Empire in the East is still to be defined by progressive forces.

You are being facetious, I am sure, but I actually did have to go back and check. Sometimes it helps to use markup <joke></joke>

And @ Ken Burch #28

I took a stab at that up at #6

...though I am not sure if the word "rational" applies.

Fri, 2010-10-15 18:31

#31

Unionist

Ken Burch wrote:

I STILL haven't seen any rational explanation in this thread about why the choice of this man for the Nobel Peace Prize is some kind of diabolical capitalist plot.

What gives, folks?

Hi, Ken.

Could you please explain what this character (whoever he is) has done for world peace?

Oh, I see.

Fri, 2010-10-15 18:45

#32

kropotkin1951

I think he deserves it as much as Obama. Which means not at all. If the peace prize is now down to having protested against a cruel and unusual government and its genocidal policies I nominate Buffy Sainte Marie. Her voice is a voice for peace and justice in america.

Fri, 2010-10-15 19:01

#33

Unionist

The day they nominate some U.S. deserter, I'll pay attention. Until then, this is such a transparent and ugly fraud. Western liberals lecturing to China how they should be nicer to their own people. Did someone say racism, colonialism, arrogance, white man's burden? I agree.

Fri, 2010-10-15 19:25

#34

6079_Smith_W

You know, none of this would have happened if they had taken my advice and just issued everyone jerseys so we'd know who is on the good team and who is on the bad team.

Fri, 2010-10-15 21:08

#35

George Victor

The guy has been in and out of jail for years because - beginning about the time they ran over the students with tanks in Tien an Men Square - he called for an end to one-party rule.

As seen here, throwing away the peace prize to someone so undeserving has offended many ...mightily. The final confirmation is being accused of "colonialism, racism" and being a throwback to continued belief in the need to carry the "white man's burden."

Some might call these very disturbing (if not disturbed) accusations. But they come from folks who mean well, 6079, no sweaters necessary.

Fri, 2010-10-15 23:56

#36

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Unionist wrote:

The day they nominate some U.S. deserter, I'll pay attention. Until then, this is such a transparent and ugly fraud. Western liberals lecturing to China how they should be nicer to their own people. Did someone say racism, colonialism, arrogance, white man's burden? I agree.

Add to that his human rights manifesto includes a provision for entrenching property ownership as a human right.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that sound like the Canadian right wing who want to see the Charter amended to provide similar protections to property holders? I have no idea why that would make him a champion of the people as opposed to someone who wants to entrench power for those with means.

Sat, 2010-10-16 01:20

#37

6079_Smith_W

George Victor wrote:

Some might call these very disturbing (if not disturbed) accusations. But they come from folks who mean well, 6079, no sweaters necessary.

I hear you, and I agree. I'm not questioning the dedication, nor the motives of anyone here. It was simply a comment on the weird dogmatic need to look at something like this award and fit everyone involved into black and white molds.

I wasn't even thinking about a babble cricket league in making that comment, but I suppose it might read that way.

Sat, 2010-10-16 06:16

#38

siamdave

Ken Burch wrote:

I STILL haven't seen any rational explanation in this thread about why the choice of this man for the Nobel Peace Prize is some kind of diabolical capitalist plot.

What gives, folks?

- I don't know about diabolical plot, as a fairly minor sort of thing, but there's usually some relevant POV not available in the MSM - for instance - http://gowans.wordpress.com/

Sat, 2010-10-16 08:33

#39

Unionist

laine lowe wrote:

Unionist wrote:

The day they nominate some U.S. deserter, I'll pay attention. Until then, this is such a transparent and ugly fraud. Western liberals lecturing to China how they should be nicer to their own people. Did someone say racism, colonialism, arrogance, white man's burden? I agree.

Add to that his human rights manifesto includes a provision for entrenching property ownership as a human right.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that sound like the Canadian right wing who want to see the Charter amended to provide similar protections to property holders? I have no idea why that would make him a champion of the people as opposed to someone who wants to entrench power for those with means.

Thanks, laine. I knew there was something left on babble.

As for some other champions of "freedom" in this thread: Let me know when the unfortunate Mr. Liu starts condemning rampant Chinese capitalism and exploitation.

WHAT!? He's not [i]that[/i] kind of freedom fighter, you say??

Ah.

Sat, 2010-10-16 11:41

#40

6079_Smith_W

@ siamdave #37

Mr. Gowans sure painted him into his cell quite thoroughly. I especially like this part:

"The reality is that any revolutionary society, if it is to successfully defend itself against counter-revolution, must limit the rights that would be used to organize the revolution’s reversal. To place political and civil liberties ahead of the preservation of the revolution, where the revolution is aimed at improving the economic condition of Chinese peasants and workers, would be to declare political rights to be senior to economic rights. Liu has clearly worked toward a counter-revolution that would push economic rights to the margins and bring the rights of the owners of capital to organize society exclusively in their interests to the fore."

After reading all that I think I should probably go turn myself in.

Sat, 2010-10-16 13:00

#41

siamdave

6079_Smith_W wrote:

@ siamdave #37

Mr. Gowans sure painted him into his cell quite thoroughly. I especially like this part:

"The reality is that any revolutionary society, if it is to successfully defend itself against counter-revolution, must limit the rights that would be used to organize the revolution’s reversal. To place political and civil liberties ahead of the preservation of the revolution, where the revolution is aimed at improving the economic condition of Chinese peasants and workers, would be to declare political rights to be senior to economic rights. Liu has clearly worked toward a counter-revolution that would push economic rights to the margins and bring the rights of the owners of capital to organize society exclusively in their interests to the fore."

After reading all that I think I should probably go turn myself in.

- Gowans is a pretty seriously good writer from the 'non-capitalist' perspective. Ummmm - 'interesting', shall we say, he's never mentioned on Rabble ...

Sat, 2010-10-16 13:19

#42

George Victor

Clearly, we have to let the rising Capitalist Empire in the East ride roughshod over not only the states where it will suck up all the resources required for its state-owned engines, but we must simply hope that - somewhere down the road in a super-heated biosphere - we can watch the revolutionary struggle unfold, finally, in the freedom of the worker to say bugger all. THEN we can think about allowing people to think for themselves.

And all will be happy ever after in Neverland.

Sat, 2010-10-16 13:42

#43

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Thanks for linking to Gowan's article, slamdave. There must be a small print disclaimer, only pro-free market capitalists need apply for the Nobel Peace Prize:

Charter 08’s champions gathered 10,000 signatures before Beijing blocked its circulation on the Internet. While the Western media cite this as evidence of a groundswell of support for the charter’s demands (though 10,000 represents an infinitesimally small fraction of a population of one billion), the ANSWER Coalition in the United States has collected hundreds of thousands of signatures to letters calling for the lifting of the US blockade on Cuba, a level of opposition to US policy that dwarfs Charter 08’s support. Yet ANSWER’s collection of signatures in opposition to a policy aimed at promoting the interests of US capital is virtually ignored in the Western media, while a smaller movement that would benefit US capital is presented as having widespread backing.

Sat, 2010-10-16 14:01

#44

George Victor

quote: "ANSWER Coalition in the United States has collected hundreds of thousands of signatures to letters calling for the lifting of the US blockade on Cuba, a level of opposition to US policy that dwarfs Charter 08's support."

Just amazing what freedom of speech might accomplish in China - and for us all. And given the time-frame for solutions to Homo sapiens' dilemma of species survival, perhaps it's worth a try?

Sat, 2010-10-16 14:06

#45

6079_Smith_W

@ laine lowe #42

No mention of the effect rates of internet use, freedom of information, the ban you mentioned, and fear of reprisals might have had on the difference on those two numbers, eh?

Also, pretending that the two petitions are somehow in direct opposition or have any relation to each other is just more of the same pretzel logic that has pervaded this thread.

Give me six lines written by the most honorable of men, and I will find an excuse in them to hang him.

Cardinal Richelieu

Sat, 2010-10-16 14:32

#46

Unionist

The Nobel committee, if it actually gave a damn, would confine itself to those who fight against imperialist and colonial aggression - the main sources of war today.

Let me know when these wise European folks nominate Malalai Joya. Or Omar Khadr. Or Alex Hundert. Or Fidel Castro.

Oh, sorry, I forgot, those folks don't qualify in the U.S. pantheon.

As for Mr. Liu, if the Chinese people actually support his struggle for property rights or Jeffersonian democracy or whatever it is that he is promoting (I personally don't care that much because it sounds pretty trite to me), I'm quite sure we'll be hearing from them shortly.

Sat, 2010-10-16 14:40

#47

George Victor

Yeah, calling, centrally, for an end to one-party rule can seem "trite" all right.

Sat, 2010-10-16 15:11

#48

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

If it's freedom of speech that the Nobel Committee wants to award, how about giving the Peace prize to those who actually condemned the illegal wars on Iraq and Afghanistan. China's one-party government never started a war and I believe voted against the two aforementioned events.

Sat, 2010-10-16 15:22

#49

George Victor

Give it time, as it reaches out for the means of its own survival and establishes turf.

Sat, 2010-10-16 15:36

#50

Unionist

George Victor wrote:

Yeah, calling, centrally, for an end to one-party rule can seem "trite" all right.

I see your point. Liu saw "multi-party" rule up front and close in the U.S. He must be an expert on its merits.

Laine lowe points out that China doesn't invade or threaten foreign countries, and your reply is "give it time".

I guess you see Liu's "peace" prize as pre-emptive?

Sat, 2010-10-16 15:50

#51

George Victor

I just depend on developments within the heart of our own capitalist enterprise - like the proposed construction of a Tar Patdh - Pacific port pipeline - as evidence of what is to come.

Hoping that freedom of thought (which goes along with freedom of speech and political choice) might bring more to understand that anthropomorphic climate change is real, is perhaps a vain, hope. But with the time constraints on our being able to achieve species survival (in one piece) it just seems not quite such a long shot as waiting for the revolution to reach maturity.

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