A Vote for Pantalone, A Vote for Rob Ford

Cueball wrote:

Uhh no. It's that I don't see any NDP around.

The NDP is made up of private citizens who choose (or don't choose) to volunteer their time working on campaigns. They don't show up wearing orange superman uniforms nor do they have NDP tattooed on their foreheads. They are just people and many (if not most of them) are also union members. I'm not sure what you imagined "the NDP" would do for Pantalone that would satisfy you. Did you think that whole federal caucus would charter a jet and fly to Toronto for the final two weeks of the campaign? Did you think Layton and Horwath would furlough all the staff at Queens Park and Parliament Hill so they could drop everything to come to Toronto and try to get Pantalone 17% of the vote instead of 15% - while ignoring every other municipal race in the country?

A good candidates attracts volunteers and donors. A mediocre candidate does not. Period.

Half of Trinity-Spadina is Ward 19 here there is a very close race between Mike Layton and the rightwing Liberal Sean McCormack. That is also Pantalone's home ward. Layton and Pantalone have endorsed each other and are helping each others campaigns and running them in tandem. I'd like to see proof that there is not one single solitary NDP supporters in Trinity-Spadina who is doing any work for Pantalone. If that is the case, it doesn't say much for Pantalone. He has been the city councillor for half of Trinity-Spadina for 30 years. He should have his own lists of hundreds of volunteers and NDP members in his ward who worked on all his municipal campaigns and he shouldn't need Olivia Chow or Rosario Marchese to make calls on his behalf to motivate those people.

I don't blame people for focusing on muncipal races. If I have a choice of campaigning for someone in a tight race for city council that could be decided by less than a hundred votes or campaign for someone running for mayor who is almost in single digits and has no chance whatsoever of winning - who do you think I'm going to volunteer my time for???

...or maybe a lot of people on the left won't support Pantalone because they're disgusted by his support for "Israeli apartheid" (sic.) and his support for the police actions at the G20 and his support for the city's position during the CUPE strike last summer???

Dalton McGuinty has been premier for 7 years...I don't see him as being particularly charismatic.

Cueball wrote:

Maybe I'll pop over to McCormack's and see if they need any help.

Just like how you bragged about how you voted Liberal in the last election just to "teach Olivia Chow" some bizarre lesson about not being "pure" enough. This comment alone speaks volumes about your ridiculous, childish attitude towards politics (and probably everything else). I'm tired of arguing with the "Flat Earth Society".

Please go ahead and volunteer for Sean McCormack. I'm sure that the more people you canvass on his behalf - the fewer people will vote for him.

Cueball wrote:

Uhh no. It's that I don't see any NDP around. Nor do they seem to be active in Trinity Spadina? What is going on there? They are in some desperate struggle to defend Adam Vaughan from Mike Yen? Hehe. I just think that maybe your shitty attitude is indicative of the malaise.

You aren't seriously suggesting that Rob Ford is substantively more charismatic than Pantalone, are you? Who do you want? John F. Kennedy? Each of these candidates brings different liabilities to the table, there is nothing intrinsic about Pantalone that shouldn't make him competative in this field. If anything, the most "charistmatic" candidate, Rossi, got killed.

Anyone check these out yet... these are good.

Sorry I have to call BS on this.

I am from a place far away from Toronto, yet I am getting bombarded by New Democrat contacts who are working for Pantalone asking for help, praising him and generally making sure all and sundry know about his campaign. 

You know rank and file New Democrats don't have the intials NDP tattoed on their foreheads.  That only happens after you reach level 37 of the inner sanctum and it can only be revealed by a special orange dye made from a mix of pumpkin and hard maple leaves.

Build your straw house elsewhere would be my advice.

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

Cueball wrote:

Uhh no. It's that I don't see any NDP around. Nor do they seem to be active in Trinity Spadina? What is going on there? They are in some desperate struggle to defend Adam Vaughan from Mike Yen? Hehe. I just think that maybe your shitty attitude is indicative of the malaise.

You aren't seriously suggesting that Rob Ford is substantively more charismatic than Pantalone, are you? Who do you want? John F. Kennedy? Each of these candidates brings different liabilities to the table, there is nothing intrinsic about Pantalone that shouldn't make him competative in this field. If anything, the most "charistmatic" candidate, Rossi, got killed.

Anyone check these out yet... these are good.

 

Sorry I have to call BS on this.

I am from a place far away from Toronto, yet I am getting bombarded by New Democrat contacts who are working for Pantalone asking for help, praising him and generally making sure all and sundry know about his campaign. 

You know rank and file New Democrats don't have the intials NDP tattoed on their foreheads.  That only happens after you reach level 37 of the inner sanctum and it can only be revealed by a special orange dye made from a mix of pumpkin and hard maple leaves.

Build your straw house elsewhere would be my advice.

Do you? Cause I live here and I don't see any of that. All I see is labour, labour, labour.

If it were just about Pantalone, I wouldn't care that much. But it's not. It's about turning around everything we won by helping to elect David Miller in 2003 and re-elect him 2007. That took the hard work of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people. Miller was certainly a good candidate. But he was also a consensus candidate - first choice of the NDPers, progressives, labour, etc. It was leaders from those groups who helped build the excitement and mobilize around Miller's campaign and what it stood for - not his charisma. It was primarily about policy after 7 years of the Harris hammer, not personality. 

Joe Pantalone has not had that luxury. He was second choice to a preferred candidate who wasn't ready - a candidate some of them had encouraged (perhaps including Miller?). Once Adam burst off the stage, Joe became their "default" choice. The new "consensus" has not yet translated into the same level of support and excitement as 2003. Why? I don't know but I think it's irresponsible not to put 110% into the campaign at a time when Rob Ford is running on Common Sense Revolution 2: Revenge of the Cars and Smitherman's campaign is for a new corporate "social contract". The point is not whether Joe is a great candidate. In any case, we could do a hell of a lot worse. It's about "putting the band back together" for another gig. 

Lord Palmerston wrote:

Dalton McGuinty has been premier for 7 years...I don't see him as being particularly charismatic.

Charisma comes in many forms...its not always about having sex appeal or be a good soap box orator. Its also about having a compelling message. The Pantalone message seems to be "if you liked the last seven years under Miller then elect me for another four years of more of the same". That works for me - but it doesnt seem to be clicking with the rest of the population. In 2003, Miller represented change after six years of Lastman and also a reaction against the Harris nightmare. Now after seven yeats of Miller, Pantalone is - rightly or wrongly - seen as the status quo candidate.

Stockholm wrote:

Charisma comes in many forms...its not always about having sex appeal or be a good soap box orator. Its also about having a compelling message. The Pantalone message seems to be "if you liked the last seven years under Miller then elect me for another four years of more of the same". That works for me - but it doesnt seem to be clicking with the rest of the population. In 2003, Miller represented change after six years of Lastman and also a reaction against the Harris nightmare. Now after seven yeats of Miller, Pantalone is - rightly or wrongly - seen as the status quo candidate.

Which is fine there are several good things that were accomplished under Miller, but it seems that there was also some frustration, and the discussion has been polarised instead of discussing what was done right and what can be done to address those frustrations and work on those areas that need improvement.

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

I am from a place far away from Toronto, yet I am getting bombarded by New Democrat contacts who are working for Pantalone asking for help, praising him and generally making sure all and sundry know about his campaign. 

If you are from a place far away from Toronto and are getting bombarded by New Democrat contacts who are working for Pantalone and asking for help, please either (a) tell them to come back to Toronto or (b) recalibrate your GPS.

Not having access to the full results, I suspect that they polled 400 "eligible voters" (ie: people who are 18 or over and live in Toronto) and asked how likely they were to vote in the municipal election (i.e. absolutely certain, probably will vote, probably won't vote etc...) who they would vote for. It seems that among all eligible voters - it is almost dead even, but among people who are absolutely certain to vote Smitherman seems to do better. That is a good sign for him.

Miller motivated people. Pantalone doesn't seem to do that to the same extent. I actually see lots of Pantalone signs of people lawns on side streets in the Annex...but there are very few signs for any of the candidates for mayor.

" As for why, well, they are probably helping Layton, Bussin, Mihevic, Beaulieu (sp?)... maybe it's some kind of calculation that it is better to have a strong left-ish council to stand up to a possible Ford Mayorship"

I think that calculation is that it is essential to have a strong left-ish council no matter who wins the mayoralty. They can stand up to a Mayor Ford, they can stand up to a Mayor Smitherman or they can support a Mayor Pantalone. Whoever wins, the more progressives on council, the better.

When Miller started his campaign, he was in single digits.  He did, however, have the entire Toronto NDP machine behind him.  All the top organizers were working for him.

Sorry, but I don't buy the "he doesn't motivate people".  NDPers tend to be fairly ideological voters; they go for substance, not fluff.  At least that's why I'm voting for him.  And frankly, this city has a long history of people voting for bland Mayors.  David Crombie, Art Eggleton, Barbara Hall,... these are not politicians who will ever be confused with Trudeau, or the Lewis's.  Hell even John Sewell isn't really anybody's idea of an animated charismatic speaker.  

Pantalone's people couldn't, for whatever reason, organize their NDP volunteers, couldn't get literature out the door, and, subsequently, allowed his opponents to frame him as "uncharismatic" as opposed to defining him as the only person who wasn't a pompous blow hard without a plan. 

Kloch wrote:

My impression, for whatever it is worth, is that there are a few factors at play.  For starters, a lot of NDP riding associations are essentially inactive, even in Toronto.  Scarborough, Etobicoke and North York are write-offs.  The Liberal machine delivered those for Miller in 2003, particularly Scarborough.  That means a lot of anti-Smitherman voters don't get any contact from the Pantalone central campaign.  That probably also explains the 20% of New Democrats who say they are voting for Ford.  Probably all in the inner suburbs.

I think you may have hit the underlying problem. Under Miller, the Liberal and NDP campaigns were behind the same candidate, while this time around the Liberals and NDP each have different people.

You've uncovered a structural problem progressives face in municipal politics in Canada: namely that the best way for progressives to be elected to office municipally is to form a "liberal-left coalition." (I heard this term used when we started talking strategy in Winnipeg a few years back.) Yet at the provincial and federal levels, the NDP and Liberals don't work together that well. So the question in my mind then is, what can progressives do to break this impasse and reach the point where it can win municipally without relying on the Liberals for help?

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Kloch wrote:

My impression, for whatever it is worth, is that there are a few factors at play.  For starters, a lot of NDP riding associations are essentially inactive, even in Toronto.  Scarborough, Etobicoke and North York are write-offs.  The Liberal machine delivered those for Miller in 2003, particularly Scarborough.  That means a lot of anti-Smitherman voters don't get any contact from the Pantalone central campaign.  That probably also explains the 20% of New Democrats who say they are voting for Ford.  Probably all in the inner suburbs.

I think you may have hit the underlying problem. Under Miller, the Liberal and NDP campaigns were behind the same candidate, while this time around the Liberals and NDP each have different people.

No that is not what he is talking about.

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Kloch wrote:

My impression, for whatever it is worth, is that there are a few factors at play.  For starters, a lot of NDP riding associations are essentially inactive, even in Toronto.  Scarborough, Etobicoke and North York are write-offs.  The Liberal machine delivered those for Miller in 2003, particularly Scarborough.  That means a lot of anti-Smitherman voters don't get any contact from the Pantalone central campaign.  That probably also explains the 20% of New Democrats who say they are voting for Ford.  Probably all in the inner suburbs.

I think you may have hit the underlying problem. Under Miller, the Liberal and NDP campaigns were behind the same candidate, while this time around the Liberals and NDP each have different people.

Well, actually, what I'm saying is that the NDP wasn't behind their candidate to begin with.  And if they were, then some organizers need to start going to campaign manager school.

As for a city-wide progressive coalition, I'm all for it.  However, I don't know why you would think the NDP or Liberals would be a part of such a thing.  The Liberal candidate in this race ran on essentially the same platform as the Tory candidate.  The NDP machine in this city has demonstrated it's usual institutional death-wish that comes out when they don't like their candidate, combined with an inability to run on the principles they supposedly espouse any time someone calls them leftists.

You want a coalition?  So do I, and it needs to have people involved that aren't afraid of running on their political beliefs, even if it means losing in the short term.

2003 was not so simple. In the beginning when Hall seemed like a formidable candidate she had a lot of New Democrats on her side and several of her strategists were NDPers. In fact, I don't think that Layton or Chow made up their mind about whether to back Miller or Hall until quite late in the campaign after it was clear that Miller was the stronger candidate. Keep in mind that Hall served on council with Jack and Olivia for many years (as did Miller) so there were a lot of personal friendships and IOUs and it wasn't until late in the campaign that the island airport became a "wedge issue" between Hall and Miller - up until then the conventional wisdom was that their policies were more or less identical.

A lot of Liberals like Warren Kinsella and David Peterson etc...backed John Tory in 2003 as well.

Getting back to this campaign, you know its hard t make the case that Smitherman is the devil incarnate and is ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY 100% JUST AS BAD AS FORD, when you see the Toronto Environmental Alliance (you know the group Gord Perks ran before he was elected) put out their report card and Pantalone gets A+ with a 100% rating, and Smitherman gets an A with a 90% rating, while Ford gets 0% and an F. It was similar ion the report card from Arts Vote.

Whoa, long thread. Closing.