Capitalism is not evil. The true evil is believing capitalism is evil.

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DaemonNice
Capitalism is not evil. The true evil is believing capitalism is evil.

In a recent post I stated that Capitalism isn't evil, whereupon it was put to me that I was wrong and that Capitalism is evil, not only by one but by several individuals.  To prove their points they quoted formal definitions, and profound statements made by others, which quite frankly seemed rather narrow minded. The sort of thinking that comes from the indoctrinated mind of a fundamental extremist. The kind of binary processing one gets from a programed machine and not that of an evolved self aware individual.

For a Socialist to say Capitalism is evil is being no different from a capitalist saying that socialism is evil. This is not the talk of an open mind, it is the talk of two narrow minds conflicting. We need to rid ourselves of these conflicting black and white concepts of good and evil. There is no black and white, there is only an infinite gradation of gray. What you call black I call an extremely dark gray. And what you call white I call an extremely light gray.Black white, good evil, these are concepts of a dualistic existence and to me, the human equation and the universe are an infinitely complex balance and harmony of colors, of light and of shade and so much more. The concepts of good and evil as opposing dichotomies are limiting concepts. And a society indoctrinated with such concepts is an easily malleable society for it limits the abilities of a society to think conceptually closing it off to all kinds of possibilities. 

No idea in and of itself is evil and equally no idea in and of itself is good. Left upon themselves they do nothing. Combine that thought with action, well that's a different question all together.A horse of a different color, so to speak. Having two ideas at war will keep us from coming to an understanding. It is ideological conflict and certainly not a means to logical resolution. And that is what I believe we are supposed to be here for.Coming to a resolution to answer the question, what is a fair and just society? We ask this question because we are universal in the awareness of not having a fair and just society. And a big part of that problem is the way capitalism is being used to funnel wealth into the hands of the few. Does that make capitalism evil? No. How capitalism has been used does not confine it to what it could be used for, in a fair and just society. The way capitalism is being used is certainly evil. But capitalism itself is not.

What is democracy? Has it worked so far? Many say no.They have even given up on voting. Does that make it evil?  Should we give up on it? No and no. It would be like giving up on a baby just because it stumbled on its first steps. Democracy is an idea that is evolving. It is an idea that humankind has been working on for some time yet is still quite young for it has far to go before it becomes an ideal democracy. And as for Capitalism. It is even much less evolved than democracy and has even further to go.But socialism. That has been a part of the human equation and evolving for what seems forever. We are at a our very nature social creatures, it is where the idea of socialism could be said to evolve from. Being social has been an important aspect to our survival as a species.To be cast out from the tribe was to be given a death sentence. Our survival depended greatly upon our ability to be social creatures.

It has also been put to me here that we need to look at this situation from outside the box, and I so certainly agree with this. To do this one must be able to conceptually remove themselves from all boxes, and look at each of them equally,  without prejudice. To do so is to have an open mind. An open mind does not begin with a statement such as something is evil. As I said before it is extremist propaganda, and does not belong with one who considers themselves self-aware. An individual with extremist ideologies is like an individual with an unbalanced load. Wherever he is trying to get will take him longer, than someone with a balanced load, he'll tire himself out faster and he'll also be easier to tip over. You'll notice that extremists tend not to use words like balance and harmony. Yet when it comes to the human equation it is balance and harmony that is needed. Without balance and harmony there is a friction of forces at work just waiting to explode.

Socialism does not balance the human equation on its own. Its simplistic ideal is that all people are equal and as much as I agree with it . All people are not equally the same, and this is where I believe it requires a form of capitalism to balance the equation. This is not the capitalism of a consumer society. It is a capitalism as a means to distribute wealth in a Socialist Ideal. My ability, my knowledge my experience my productivity are a part of what I call human capital. In today's society someone else profits from that capital. In the Utopian society I should profit from it in a reasonable and just manner. Another consideration is social-capital, the capital one earns doing good for others. Alleviating pain and suffering for others. Nurturing and educating others. Solving problems for others. Bringing a benefit to society should bring greater capital wealth for oneself.

Socialism, capitalism and now a third element in the equation, and that is Democracy. The weakest link in the chain. And the truth of this we are seeing today , with the marriage of the corporation and government and the military industrial complex. Where if military is your industry then war can only be seen as boom times for the economy. Where scarcity and deficit economics can cause inflation which funnels wealth into the hands of the few. Leading to greater disparity of wealth and rising crime rates and a greater need for more police and bigger prisons. 'Democracy requires constant vigilance', says Thomas Jefferson. The present situation is proof of that. So who shall provide that vigilance?

To create a fair and just society one must include the human equation which will require a balancing act of ideas and concepts that keep evolving, as we strive towards the Utopian ideal. 'Be the change you want to see in the world',says Gandhi. To me that means to be a just and fair individual. It requires balance and an open mind.

Capitalism is not evil, and neither is Socialism but perhaps insisting that either is evil, is the true evil instead.

 

Peace

clandestiny

Interesting. On saturday 'BigIdeas' lecture on TVO they had 'Terry Eagleton' of the U Of Manchester giving the lecture-about 'evil' I tried watching but the brats were running and...anyway, Eagleton says humanity is driven by self hatred, and it's when the self hatred is turned out, at others ie gays, women, gypsies or 'poor people' etc that evil appears. It's justified by demonising the victims, and thus deserving their violence. IS capitalism another way of saying 'Rightwing'? The Rightwing/Leftwing division of human politics explains that...rightwing= privilege of the few versus Leftwing= needs of the many. It's obvious, unless one's rich, that the population is by nature Leftwing, while the Rightwing prevails by trickery and deceit etc. A Leftwing society has a problem that Rightwing societies are spared: the leadership in any Leftwing society almost invariably become 'privileged' and begin thinking of the few (meanwhile a Rightwing society builds itself up by catering to its privilege from the very start!)

I know this wonders away from your post's thesis, but 'capitalism' is a catchall- denoting aggresive self seeking while 'socialism' defies human logic to some extent, at least in theory. Listen to Rightwing hate radio, and they ALWAYS confound issues by hiding the left/right dichotomy under nice words like 'capitalism' or business or patriotism or 'hard work'. The skinheads actually greet each other saying 'happy capitalism' jon (or jo, or mike, or ryan, or bill or rush, or ann etc)

absentia

Okay, capitalism is not evil. Neither is cancer.

What they have in common: unlimited growth....

....and that they kill the body on which they grow.

milo204

but let's keep in mind that when we're talking about capitalism, generally we're referring to the current model that is used in the west.  That model can be demonstrated to be "evil" in many ways i think.  That doesn't mean there is no formula for "capitalism" that might be reasonable under some different system with different rules and regulations, under different societal conditions.  

So for example property rights might be okay if it was limited to exclude ownership of what are public resources like water, minerals, public spaces etc. but capitalism almost inevitably leads to concentrations of ownership to the most powerful, with the resulting overwhelming influence on policy as those people hold the most sway and have the most power in the society so their needs are always met first. 

also, capitalism, because of it's insistence on private ownership of public resources always tends towards a tyrannical hierarchy, an absence of any democratic decision making.  To me the principles of democracy almost preclude that capitalism isn't compatible with democratic values.

 

absentia

You mean, with careful regulation, the world could be eaten up a little more slowly? Perhaps. If so, we should have considered that option at the beginning of the industrial revolution. Too late now.

NDPP

I tried your suggestion and stopped believing capitalism was evil. But when I stopped this and opened my eyes, it still was. Sorry, looks to me like capitalism is evil no matter what one believes...

Fidel

Is it possible for the world to continue operating on a monetary basis?

How can capitalist economies continue to function when restricted to growth rates well below the cost of interest on borrowed money?

Why are private banks allowed to create money from nothing as interest owing debt?

Is a profit driven economic system sustainable in the long run in a world where resources are finite?

Money, so they say
Is the root of all evil
Today
- Roger Waters

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

So, DaemonNice - You've come to tell us that we're the evil ones?

Or was it to tell us to stop picking on poor little baby Capitalism?

Quote:
Democracy is an idea that is evolving. It is an idea that humankind has been working on for some time yet is still quite young for it has far to go before it becomes an ideal democracy. And as for Capitalism. It is even much less evolved than democracy and has even further to go.But socialism. That has been a part of the human equation and evolving for what seems forever.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds? Have you considered trying to substantiate your absurd chronology, or are we just supposed to bow to your omniscient knowledge?

If the latter, thank you for making an appearance. I for one won't be wasting my time reading another of your rambling hundred-line screeds.

so peace on you, too.

siamdave

It's unclear how well you actually understand what we call 'capitalism', as you don't get into many details outside of apparently blind adulation - kind of, you know, like people blindly propagandized to love something without thinking of the faults about what it is do.

If you want much more disucssion here, you're going to have to deal with what I said the last time, which you managed to avoid altoghether whilst accusing me of being some propagandized robot - which is - capitalism is a system which posits as its very base that there are a few wealthy owners of production - the capitalists - and a whole herd of powerless workers producting the great 'excess wealth' which the capitalists then claim for themselves. A society, in other words, of masters and servants. Constructing and maintaing a society of masters and servants is, to me, a bad thing. And bad continues into evil quite quickly when you consider the centuries of human misery and suffering the capitalist masters have overseen, from the mill towns of Dickensian England and 19th century America to the billions living in poverty and misery around the world today because of capitalist wars - all of this misery completely unnecessary because there is lots of wealth for all, but these few capitalists claim it all for themselves, and to hell with the misery of the masses. And they are quite intent on keeping this disparity alive, through violence, propaganda, or any other means.

You need to tell me why you think these things are somehow not directly the result of capitalism before your flowery philosophisings are going to get taken any more seriously than any other form of pro-capitalist propaganda.

Caissa

Capitalism by definition is exploitive. Exploitation is evil. YMMV.

al-Qa'bong

Capitalism isn't evil, but it's amoral.

Snert Snert's picture

Exactly.  It's evil the way a fox eating a rabbit is evil.

But why the desire to anthropomorphize an economic system?  There are lots of valid ways of criticizing capitalism without imputing some kind of conscious agency and morality to it.

remind remind's picture

Perhaps because we are suffering under a corporate economic control system and corporations are people, remember....

...likening capitalism, controlled by humans, to preditor and prey realities, is pretty much stating that they, the corporation executives, can't help themselves in their desire to destroy other humans very lives. Which in actual fact could be true,  as studies have shown that many corporate executives are sociopaths/psychopaths. (just google corporate executives and sociopathic/pyschopathic for a myriad of exmples)

But that seemingly inate destructive and murderous tendency does not make such behaviour okay, in fact it shows us that we need to keep them out of such positions, if not get rid of such positions completely, so as they not be the tool of the murderous few used to destroy humanity.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Capitalism isn't evil. Lord Voldemort is evil. Darth Vader is evil. Ben Affleck is evil.

Capitalism is tyrannical, totalizing, coercive and inescapable; it's fragmenting, divisive, destructive and relentless. It destroys social relations while it builds illusions of community and solidarity. It's attractive, liberating, powerful and revolutionary; it's repulsive, obstructing, perverse and reactionary. It's a maelstrom of contradictions. It's modernity. To wit, it's a cruder form of socialism.

No, it's not evil. But it's enough.

clandestiny

There's too much deceit. I think a case can be made that Jesus was warning humanity about the Rightwing dis-ease that all human societies were/are afflicted with. That xians are among the worst capitalists on earth in history just makes invoking Jesus' name  extra enjoyable to a leftwinger. George Orwell recalled how he saw a little kid leading a water buffalo across a levee in Burma where George was a policeman. Orwell said he saw truth: that the Buffalo was like humanity, and the lil boy was like our ruling class, our 'betters'- and the relationship was similar, in that the power the boy had over the beast was real unless/until the beast decided otherwise. Capitalism KNOWS  that it prevails through managing the beast; what it hears and sees and feels! All, this is ok (and frankly, of little interest to me) except that our world is entering an era that might very well see the end of life, the 'apocalypse', a maddened human race armed to teeth and filled with racial and class hatred and suicidal despair; and with its most powerful demographic, ie the 'white man', so filled with self hatred and guilt (?) he doesn't even realise it  anymore! But kittens and whales and tigers and gorillas, not to mention the vast majority of people, make the issue #1 with a bullet, for me, and lots of others, and I hate reactionary rightwing bastards and see EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM on earth a result of the goofs scheming against humanity 24/7 since before caveman times, and whether it's judged as 'evil' is a moot point. Capitalism is over - the entire planet is deep in unpayable debt, i hear,  owed to whom i have no idea-  but... it's about time we put the endless nonsense behind us.

Condeleeza rice is coming to Toronto Nov2, and the war criminal tony blair is here in mid november. Them rightwing stooges are evil. Pure evil.

siamdave

Catchfire wrote:

Capitalism isn't evil. Lord Voldemort is evil. Darth Vader is evil. Ben Affleck is evil.

Capitalism is tyrannical, totalizing, coercive and inescapable; it's fragmenting, divisive, destructive and relentless. It destroys social relations while it builds illusions of community and solidarity. It's attractive, liberating, powerful and revolutionary; it's repulsive, obstructing, perverse and reactionary. It's a maelstrom of contradictions. It's modernity. To wit, it's a cruder form of socialism.

No, it's not evil. But it's enough.

- unfortunately, Voldemort, Vader and Affleck are cartoons. Capitalism is real. And the people who run it are as close to evil as we're going to see in this world. You wanna talk about Larry Summers, that capitalist leader, who figures we might as well ship our toxic waste to Africa because, well, the lives of the people there are not as valuable as the lives of 'mericans? Just a bit misguided, maybe, certainly not 'evil'?

and etc.

DaemonNice

Well, I guess I stirred the pot.

To siamdave, I am sorry you mistook my statement personally, it was to others that that comment was intended for, not you. Your inputs were appreciated and enlightening.

To those of you who got all defensive and up in arms....why?

As far as the definition of words go, they can change, and they often differ depending on what school of economics you adhere to. Me I don't have a school of economics to belong to. Also, in the learning process, I learned a long time ago that I don't have much to learn from those who spout a lot of talk about what is evil. I didn't come here to be told what is evil. Especially as a defense to disagree with a comment I made.

OOOOOOOOOOOOO its evil........how intellectual is that? You can go out there and wave  your placards about how capitalism is evil, but it really won't win you any converts.Nor will you be taken seriously.  Saying capitalism is evil is like saying money is evil. Its like telling people they are living an evil life, and I can guarantee you this they will not appreciate that.

 I thought the idea here was to have an open mind and explore ideas. So let me ask you. If Capitalism is evil and its where we are at now. How do you get to good socialism? More importantly how do you change the average person who is going to rise up in arms against you as soon as you say socialism? I am assuming that you plan on using the democratic process to move us over to that utopian socialist state of yours and not some other means. And your gonna start with the slogan capitalism is evil. Well, it does have a ring to it.

You can talk your ideologies all you want, but has anyone here got a practical democratic solution to the problem we have now? If not, then again I must apologize for I seriously came to the wrong place.

 

Peace

 

 

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
likening capitalism, controlled by humans, to preditor and prey realities, is pretty much stating that they, the corporation executives, can't help themselves in their desire to destroy other humans very lives.

 

My point was that when a fox eats a rabbit, we -- if we're older than 12 -- generally don't try to turn that into a morality play. We don't say "Oh, that fox must HATE that rabbit!!". We don't say "Oh, that fox must be some kind of SOCIOPATH!!!" We don't assume the fox derives some kind of sadistic joy out of the rabbit's pain. The term "evil" has no meaningful place in the discussion of the fox and the rabbit, and I don't think it has one in the discussion of Capitalism either. That's not intended as an endorsement of laissez-faire capitalism, or capitalism in all its incarnations. But trying to anthropomorphize an economic system is as silly and embarrassing as saying that FPTP is "evil", or that two term limits are "evil".

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Actually, one famous anthropomorphic allegory of capitalism comes from Slavoj Zizek, who uses the Fox and Scorpion fable (which, even though variations have been around since Aesop, seems to be enjoying wide circulation these days for any number of situations). You know: fox, scorpion get to raging river. Scorpion: "Hey Fox, can you take me across the river?" Fox: "What am I, an idiot? You'll sting me when we're halfway across." Scorpion: "Why would I do that? It's in my best interest not to sting you, because then we'll both drown." Fox: "That's reasonable. Ok, let's go." Halfway across, the scorpion stings the fox and as they are both drowning, Scorpion cries: "Sry! It's in my nature!" *rim shot*

In that situation, it would be perfectly reasonable to call the scorpion sociopathic. Which means amoral, not evil, by the way.

ETA: And I'm moving this to Humanities & Science

absentia

DaemonNice wrote:

......

 has anyone here got a practical democratic solution to the problem we have now?

Yup. That would do.

Quote:

.....

  I seriously came to the wrong place.

Gee, ya think?

mybabble

Capatalisium can be evil.

Hatred comes into play as government turns heads against the poor

Lobbyist influence governments in many ways as Mulroney shows us how it is so easy to take the cash and not report it is the usual as Swiss banks accounts are also another way.

Capatalisium that is left to devour the lands richs while leaving behind global warming says where is government and the regulations that help slow down the harm done to the planet by companies that only care about the bottom line.

As Harper comes up with home renovations no investsment for the future unless going green instead of home depo getting all the cash.  Homes owners need to learn is home renovatoins are usually the first thing owners lose out on as thousands and thousands of dollars in debt while home buyers are not interested in paying you for as market dictates how it all will work out.  As double bubble is about to burst  says capatalisium is true to itself as greed pays offf because it is the general public who will pay the price as it is what capatalisium is all about as its just another extra pay day for the politician with lots of clout. 

Violence is up.

Rape is up.

Boozing is up.

Gambling is up.

Food is a privildge.

Children live on the streets.

Sucides are up

Gang shooting the norm

Children do sex for food.

Foreclosures are up.

Police are thugs

Bankrupcies are up.

Homelessness is up

Banks make record profits.

Global warming and pollution are left to flourish and grow

While Universal Heath Care is a thing of the past

As clinics waiting rooms are packed to the brim with hundreds and thousands of immigrants

who where attraced to the socialist country who is about to provide the same services is the biggest joke as treat and street is the prescription for an overcrowded system that wasn't prepared for all these new Canadians ailments says how sick can you get. 

How evil can you get is more like it as capatalisum is void of caring about the inhuman conditions it dictates?

 

The fox and the rabbit came out of different holes as the fox looks to the rabbit for dinner while the rabbit looks up to the fox as the sly fox leads the rabbit on with lies and deceit are seen as crafty and enterprisiing instead of how low can you go to come out on top.  Britsh Columbians will agree a dirt, bag, lying politican isn't that great as Campbell tells his lies for the guys on top and bottoms out with his evil ways at 9% says a lot.

 

 

 

 

milo204

So you come here after saying "the true evil is believing capitalism is evil" and then get mad when people say it is because "evil" isn't the right word to use?  That makes no sense.  

Try refuting some of the issues raised by the other posters instead of getting in a huff as soon as no one agrees with you.  Especially when you come into an obviously anti capitalist (for the most part) forum.

DaemonNice

absentia wrote:

DaemonNice wrote:

......

 has anyone here got a practical democratic solution to the problem we have now?

Yup. That would do.

Quote:

.....

  I seriously came to the wrong place.

Gee, ya think?

Yeah, I do think. You don't have any practical democratic solutions to the problems at hand.

The 20th century has seen the failure of both capitalism and socialism. Why? The human equation, something you don't seem to get.

You can sit around and discuss your theoretical socialism all you want, it won't get you anything except, perhaps a sense of self-righteousness.

In a democratic society you are going to have to convince a lot of people that socialism is good and capitalism is bad. Unfortunately for you, most people are indoctrinated in the opposite belief. They don't see it as a failure of capitalism as it is the greedy and exploitative natures of some. So, go ahead, stand on the outside of society shouting capitalism is evil. And you will stay on the outside of society.

Th is not about someone disagreeing with me and me being in a huff, hardly, I expect to be disagreed with for now. No this has to do with ME disagreeing with something that was put here and the unavailability of an open-minded response.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

asshat

Iwant Liberty

Capitalism is a system where people make stuff and own it.  Socialism is a system where the government makes stuff and owns it.  Interventionism is a system where people make stuff and own it at the discretion of the government.

What makes one inherently evil over the other?

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

I guess you read that somewhere.

siamdave

Iwant Liberty wrote:

Capitalism is a system where people make stuff and own it.  Socialism is a system where the government makes stuff and owns it.  Interventionism is a system where people make stuff and own it at the discretion of the government.

What makes one inherently evil over the other?

You're reading too many capitalist fairy tales uncritically (which is what they teach you to do in their indoctrination schools and media). Capitalism is a system in which many people produce a lot of stuff, and the capitalists claim it all for themselves as 'the owners of the means of production'. Socialism is a system in which many people produce a lot of stuff, and own it themselves. There's no inherent evil at the starting gate, but when the capitalists decide that they can use massive violence to keep the workers controlled, and treat them like slaves and mushrooms, the resulting misery for the masses and opulence for the few gets pretty close to evil. (and 'socialism' has never been seriously tried, so don't go running around pointing at the good ol USSR or Maoist China or something, which were totalitarian regimes labelled as 'socialist' by the capitalist USA as part of their endless demonizing of better alternatives to their dystopia).

milo204

yes what planet do you live on?  people don't make stuff and own it.  A small percentage of the society makes stuff and owns it (including what should be publicly owned like natural resources) and the rest rent themselves to these people so they can afford to survive.  

And lets remember it's the same people who are so against a society that takes care of everyone that have no qualms about giving hundreds of billions of dollars with no oversight or anything to predatory financial firms who destroyed the economy.  That's not capitalism anyways, it's a form of socialism or welfare for the rich.  Our version of capitalism is just public subsidy for private profit.  Much of the governments efforts are going towards helping huge corporations at no expense.  We bail them out when they get in financial trouble, sign trade deals, clean up environmental disasters, build roads and railways and the internet and HST's and pretty much everything else.

i'm not sure what it is, but it's not a "free market"... 

 

donOld

EvilNice, your name pretty well sums up your game. It may not be your intention, but you really do come across as a pompous, condescending, lover of thine own great mind. You need to disappear for a while and work on that.

p.s. ...when you come back, bring something other than yourself

DaveW

Caissa wrote:

Capitalism by definition is exploitive. Exploitation is evil. YMMV.

yeah, well, as they used to say in the Soviet Union:

capitalism is the exploitation of man by man, and communism, the opposite ...

Fidel

Thomas Pivitt in 2008 wrote:
"We read about the 'horrors of capitalism' in school. They really got that right. Karl Marx was spot on," -   [url=http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE49F5MX20081016]IT worker from east Berlin[/url]

[url=http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,634122,00.html]Majority of Eastern Germans Feel Life Better under Communism[/url] 2009

DaveW

Fidel wrote:

Thomas Pivitt in 2008 wrote:
"We read about the 'horrors of capitalism' in school. They really got that right. Karl Marx was spot on," -   [url=http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE49F5MX20081016]IT worker from east Berlin[/url]

[url=http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,634122,00.html]Majority of Eastern Germans Feel Life Better under Communism[/url] 2009

I saw Goodbye Lenin, I am aware there is some Ostalgie, as they say, for the old country.

Q. Do you conclude from that they would gladly go back to the DDR? Voting patterns suggest no, as at the very highest tide of post-Communist parties, three-quarters of the ex-DDR population votes against them.

Angela Merkel, for crying out loud, is an ex-East German, and she represents better the educated and anti-ostentatious cultural heritage of that country.

But as for going back there: Nein, danke.

 

 

NDPP

The Koch Empire and Americans for Prosperity

http://www.counterpunch.org/martens10192010.html

"Lily Tomlin said it best, 'No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up.' Despite two solid years of progressive media tracking the billionaire Koch brothers' funding of right-wing front groups, new details have emerged which show a more sophisticated and ominous network than previously understood.."

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

It's evil to believe an evil system is evil.

I was going to comment but then I realized I've got nothing to say about such a stupid statement.

Bye.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

alan smithee wrote:

It's evil to believe an evil system is evil.

I was going to comment but then I realized I've got nothing to say about such a stupid statement.

Bye.

Wait...I wanted to concur with a comment left above that capitalism is equal to a cancer.

That capitalism is a self-centred and greedy system whereas socialism respects the individual and the working class -- capitalism loathes the individual and working class.

And I'd venture to say that socialism is moral and capitalism is morally bankrupt.

There's nothing more to say.

Fidel

DaveW wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Thomas Pivitt in 2008 wrote:
"We read about the 'horrors of capitalism' in school. They really got that right. Karl Marx was spot on," -   [url=http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE49F5MX20081016]IT worker from east Berlin[/url]

[url=http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,634122,00.html]Majority of Eastern Germans Feel Life Better under Communism[/url] 2009

I saw Goodbye Lenin, I am aware there is some Ostalgie, as they say, for the old country.

Q. Do you conclude from that they would gladly go back to the DDR? Voting patterns suggest no, as at the very highest tide of post-Communist parties, three-quarters of the ex-DDR population votes against them.

Angela Merkel, for crying out loud, is an ex-East German, and she represents better the educated and anti-ostentatious cultural heritage of that country.

But as for going back there: Nein, danke.

I think if elections were determined by Eastern Germans, things would different. But while the Korean peninsula remains divided and occupied militarily still today, Germany is reunited.

 [url=http://www.thelocal.de/politics/20091012-22527.html]Left coalition set to take power in Brandenburg[/url] October 2009

al-Qa'bong

alan smithee wrote:

 

And I'd venture to say that socialism is moral and capitalism is morally bankrupt.

 

 

Can one even become bankrupt in a true socialist system?

 

As far as determining the evility of anyone or anything, that's the realm of the priesthood.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Here's what history's most famous (and best) critic of capitalism had to say about it:

Quote:

The bourgeoisie has disclosed how it came to pass that the brutal display of vigour in the Middle Ages, which reactionaries so much admire, found its fitting complement in the most slothful indolence. It has been the first to show what man’s activity can bring about. It has accomplished wonders far surpassing Egyptian pyramids, Roman aqueducts, and Gothic cathedrals; it has conducted expeditions that put in the shade all former Exoduses of nations and crusades.

The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionising the instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society. Conservation of the old modes of production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first condition of existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant revolutionising of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real conditions of life, and his relations with his kind.

That doesn't particuarly sound like he's calling it "evil"--in fact, it's rather complimentary.

6079_Smith_W

@ Fidel

There is this part of the article, too:

People are whitewashing the dictatorship, as if reproaching the state meant calling their own past into question. "Many eastern Germans perceive all criticism of the system as a personal attack," says political scientist Klaus Schroeder, 59, director of an institute at Berlin's Free University that studies the former communist state. He warns against efforts to downplay the SED dictatorship by young people whose knowledge about the GDR is derived mainly from family conversations, and not as much from what they have learned in school. "Not even half of young people in eastern Germany describe the GDR as a dictatorship, and a majority believe the Stasi was a normal intelligence service," Schroeder concluded in a 2008 study of school students. "These young people cannot, and in fact have no desire to, recognize the dark sides of the GDR."

The fact is the East Germans voted for re-unification, even though they had the option of continuing as asn independent nation. I'm not so sure it was a wise choice, especially since West Germany saw it as a fait accompli, and did take anti-democratic measures to control the eastern states, but they did vote for it. 

Also the SPD are a centre-left party. I would hardly call a vote for them an endorsement of the old regime.

And I had no idea you were a Kim fan.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

'Evil' is not an appropriate word in comparing anything....Those who have brought it up are correct--that smacks of religion.

But as for morals,you do not have to be pious to be moral...As a matter of fact,the majority of those who consider themselves religious are in fact intensely immoral.

When someone falls on the sidewalk,it's the moral response to reach out a helping hand and help them onto their feet...It's morally repugnant to kick them in the head while they are down.

And THAT's the difference between socialism and capitalism. 

Fidel

6079_Smith_W wrote:

@ Fidel

There is this part of the article, too:

People are whitewashing the dictatorship, as if reproaching the state meant calling their own past into question. "Many eastern Germans perceive all criticism of the system as a personal attack," says political scientist Klaus Schroeder, 59, director of an institute at Berlin's Free University that studies the former communist state. He warns against efforts to downplay the SED dictatorship by young people whose knowledge about the GDR is derived mainly from family conversations, and not as much from what they have learned in school. "Not even half of young people in eastern Germany describe the GDR as a dictatorship, and a majority believe the Stasi was a normal intelligence service," Schroeder concluded in a 2008 study of school students. "These young people cannot, and in fact have no desire to, recognize the dark sides of the GDR."

Did Germans in the West perceive Himmler's SS reconstructed under the BND as a normal intelligence agency? And very many former SS and ardent Nazis went to work for the west in various government and private sector roles. In fact, many of the former STASI were still there in various government agencies after the wall came down.

Very many in the States believe it's the NSA's purpose to spy on foreign militaries. It's not. They NSA has been spying on the lives of ordinary Americans for decades and with technological capabilities the East German STASI never dreamed of using against Germans. We are only learning now about secret plans for PROFUNC lists of leftists in Canada who were to be rounded up and  imprisoned whenever CSIS and RCMP were given the green light for a crackdown. Apparently there were orders to shoot to kill people like Tommy Douglas and Jim Laxer and Roland Penner on someone's orders. I wonder whose signatures were on the shoot to kill order in Ottawa?

DaemonNice

"pointing at the good ol USSR or Maoist China or something, which were totalitarian regimes labeled as 'socialist' by the capitalist USA"

The United Soviet Socialist Republic was labeled Socialist by the capitalist USA and Mao never pretended to be a communist. Really?

There are many examples of self-labeled communists and socialists committing atrocities to institute their political system. It is the label they give themselves, and certainly there are many reasons to question whether or not they actually deserved such labels. And as you call these examples of socialism not true examples ,to which I do agree, I would also say that the Capitalism we are experiencing is not the true capitalism.

When it comes to the human equation, how do you define equality? How do you measure all the qualities that it is to be a human being? Not just the obvious differences that can be seen and heard and felt, but the ones that from within an individual. The ones that define their consciousness, their emotions, their intellect, their desires, their ambitions. This is an infinitely complex equation that can not be answered by a one system state. It would take a balance of systems.

By beginning on the principle that all aspects of Capitalism is bad, you prevent yourself from using the democratic process to bring the changes you want to see. The average person does not want hear that their way of living is bad . I work in a tier one auto factory, I know these people and these are the people you gonna have to convince if you going to use the democratic process to create the change you want to see. They have been indoctrinated all their lives that Capitalism is good , Socialism is bad. They don't want to hear your vision of things if you say capitalism is bad. So, that must leave us to conclude that you don't intend on using the democratic process, which means what, a violent overthrow of the government. Violence will not achieve your end goals. It will only beget more violence. Which perhaps might explain what happened to the communist revolution of Russia.

So, if you want to overthrow the government using the democratic process, what do you do?

 

 

Stargazer

You don't. You cannot possibly work in the system to defeat the system and we've all been brainwashed to accept this system as being the best system (cough - some more than others apparently).

What you should fear is the fact that you and many many others just like you seem to think this is the best system for everyone and dammit we had better accept it or else. That scares me. The inability to think about another world free from the tyranny of capitalism and all that entails. Pitting brother against brother, sister against sister, white against black - it is a very horrible system that puts people on tiers in which they must compete for the smallest little piece of the pie. A pie that is owned by the wealthiest. Once we have a taste we are then supposed to bow down and give thanks that we were allowed to have a taste. How pathetic, how divisive, how horribly undemocratic is that system.

I would ask you to tell me exactly how we are benefiting from such a system. In the real world. Not in the fairly tale land of "everyone's a winner baby".

500_Apples

Stargazer wrote:

You don't. You cannot possibly work in the system to defeat the system and we've all been brainwashed to accept this system as being the best system (cough - some more than others apparently).

What you should fear is the fact that you and many many others just like you seem to think this is the best system for everyone and dammit we had better accept it or else. That scares me. The inability to think about another world free from the tyranny of capitalism and all that entails. Pitting brother against brother, sister against sister, white against black - it is a very horrible system that puts people on tiers in which they must compete for the smallest little piece of the pie. A pie that is owned by the wealthiest. Once we have a taste we are then supposed to bow down and give thanks that we were allowed to have a taste. How pathetic, how divisive, how horribly undemocratic is that system.

I would ask you to tell me exactly how we are benefiting from such a system. In the real world. Not in the fairly tale land of "everyone's a winner baby".

I find it really hard to imagine a non-capitalist system. I like to think that most people deserve better, but the majority of people are so nasty I'm not convinced that's true. It gives people a sense of social status to see somebody else f'ucked by the system.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

radiorahim wrote:

Believing that believing that capitalism is evil is evil.

This sentence lacks a predicate. It should read:

Believing that believing that capitalism is evil is evil is evil.

Iwant Liberty

siamdave wrote:

You're reading too many capitalist fairy tales uncritically (which is what they teach you to do in their indoctrination schools and media). Capitalism is a system in which many people produce a lot of stuff, and the capitalists claim it all for themselves as 'the owners of the means of production'. Socialism is a system in which many people produce a lot of stuff, and own it themselves. There's no inherent evil at the starting gate, but when the capitalists decide that they can use massive violence to keep the workers controlled, and treat them like slaves and mushrooms, the resulting misery for the masses and opulence for the few gets pretty close to evil. (and 'socialism' has never been seriously tried, so don't go running around pointing at the good ol USSR or Maoist China or something, which were totalitarian regimes labelled as 'socialist' by the capitalist USA as part of their endless demonizing of better alternatives to their dystopia).

Fair enough.  I suppose we all believe in fairy tales to some extent :) 

Consider the owners of a mom & pop corner store.  They are entrepreneurs, and they are captialists if they invest their own money to start the business.  Would you deny them the right to keep their property, and fruits of their labour?  I think what most people abhor about capitalism is the corruption and abuse which results when it becomes connected at the hip with government.  I am on that page for sure!

By the way, socialism is definitely not a system where the workers keep the stuff they produce:  the government claims ownership of it.  Perhaps it's equally valid to think the following:  if the government claims ownership of the fruits of everyone's labour, then individual initiative and spirit will suffer.  And, consequently, so will society, and, in that sense, government ownership is evil. 

(Consider the old/new Soviet Union where the state owned/owns most of industry-- productivity was very low and people suffered (and are still suffering) for decades; it will take many more decades for recovery to take place; the same is happening in Venezuela and it's not going to end well for the citizens there.)

One final thought:  the only case where business owners or capitalists (or anyone for that matter) can use violence against workers is when the government, and police, condone or actively engage in such violence, such as with Pinoche's regime (and many, many others).  When the corporate elite merge with government and the police, then catastrophe always awaits the citizenry.

Perhaps another view is that government, not capitalism or socialism, is evil because all governments (regardless of their political stripes) consist of a gang of thugs who rely solely on the power of force to get their way.

Fidel

And in the most capitalist country in the world, [url=http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics... majority of Americans say capitalism better than socialism[/url] 2009

Really, though, Americans should be asked whether they prefer socialism for bankers and rich people or that other system. It might help them answer the question.

DaemonNice

Stargazer wrote:

You don't. You cannot possibly work in the system to defeat the system and we've all been brainwashed to accept this system as being the best system (cough - some more than others apparently).

What you should fear is the fact that you and many many others just like you seem to think this is the best system for everyone and dammit we had better accept it or else. That scares me. The inability to think about another world free from the tyranny of capitalism and all that entails. Pitting brother against brother, sister against sister, white against black - it is a very horrible system that puts people on tiers in which they must compete for the smallest little piece of the pie. A pie that is owned by the wealthiest. Once we have a taste we are then supposed to bow down and give thanks that we were allowed to have a taste. How pathetic, how divisive, how horribly undemocratic is that system.

I would ask you to tell me exactly how we are benefiting from such a system. In the real world. Not in the fairly tale land of "everyone's a winner baby".

If you don't change the system form within, how do you change the system?

be the change you wish to see....says Gandhi, who also gave us the concept of nonviolent civil disobedience.

I do believe that democracy is the best system we have? It has its faults, and one of them is the necessity of constant vigilance to protect it from the kind of things that are happening now. I dream of a world free from tyranny,hatred exploitation. But I am also realistic enough to know that those are the goals and not the journey, and what you dream about cannot come from any political system but has to come from the evolution of the individual. And evolution is a slow tedious process.

I want to see a revolution too, but I don't want to see violence.

The democratic process is there. To not use it to bring social change is in effect anti-social. If we are talking about, 'We the People', then we are talking about democracy.

What I find most interesting within this group of open-minded intellectuals, is the amount of angry vitriol I have stirred up. Perhaps that is because while you have your Utopian dreams, you have no practical means to attain them, and that must be frustrating for you. And so you sit back and gripe about the world and espouse how you know better and it just eats you up from inside, cause you are impotent to change it. I am quite familiar with that feeling and if I did not learn to put the anger away I would have taken a roman bath a long time ago.

So why ask me to explain how we are benefiting from such a tyrannical system? How does anyone benefit from any tyrannical system.I am so not about the present system. I am about changing the present system to become the Utopian ideal that I think we both want. But the present system is the starting point, and you need to change the way people think about it and I don't care how big your sword is, it won't change what people believe in.

So, back to the question. How do we change the system?

Peace

 

Stargazer

So, you;ve resigned yourself to the fact you are nothing but a production unit destined to live and die with no imagination. I feel bad for you

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

Believing that people who believe that capitalism is evil is evil...is evil

Believing in the tooth fairy, the easter bunny and Santa Claus is not evil...just kinda stupid.

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

M. Spector wrote:

This sentence lacks a predicate. It should read:

Believing that believing that capitalism is evil is evil is evil.

Yeah...I shouldn't post late at night on a weekday...missed an "is evil" LOL!!!

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