Chinese dissident chosen by Norwegians for "Peace" prize

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laine lowe laine lowe's picture

I think hatred is an overstatement, Sean. Liu Xiaobo did not write Charter 8 by himself but he is directly associated with two organizations that received hundreds of thousands of US government funding via the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) in the past five years. NED funded the Independent Chinese PEN Center Inc. since 2003 (Liu was its president) and the publication Minzhu Zhongguo registered as Democratic China Inc (Liu is a founder).

So its a far cry to paint Liu and his colleagues who drafted Charter 8 and/or were involved with these two US-funded organizations as some kind of organic opposition movement. NED is in the business of promoting regime change in countries they deem undemocratic.

About NED and their grant making activities:

NED says it does not directly fund any political party, as this is forbidden by law. However, it has been accused of providing funding to opposition candidates in elections in countries other than the USA. According to NED, it intervenes in elections by funding election observation and civic education on voting, such as student "get-out-the-vote" campaigns.[6]

Critics such as Pat Buchanan accuse the NED of fomenting revolution and regularly interfering in the affairs of other countries, especially dictatorships and undemocratic regimes.[7]

Other critics say that the NED only supports candidates with strong ties to the military. William Blum accuses NED of being part of a U.S. government funding strategy to undermine left-wing leaders and "pervert elections". Others are also critical of U.S. corporate investment in foreign countries, and criticize the NED for not supporting candidates who oppose free trade and the investing rights of US companies. For example, Bill Berkowitz of Working for Change claims, "The NED functions as a full-service infrastructure building clearinghouse. It provides money, technical support, supplies, training programs, media know-how, public relations assistance and state-of-the-art equipment to select political groups, civic organizations, labor unions, dissident movements, student groups, book publishers, newspapers, and other media. Its aim is to destabilize progressive movements, particularly those with a socialist or democratic socialist bent."[8]

However, supporters of the NED say that the NED supports a myriad of groups of social-democratic and liberal orientation everywhere in the world. NED has also supported, provided training, and consulted with groups which approve of democracy, but criticize the United States, in countries such as Indonesia and Ukraine. The NED says that it focuses funding on democracy-minded organizations rather than opposition groups; however it does not support groups that openly advocate communism, fundamentalism, or dictatorships. Michael McFaul, in an article for the Washington Post, argues that the NED is not an instrument of U.S. foreign policy. As an example of this, he states that the NED was willing to fund pro-democratic organizations even when the U.S. government was supportive of non-democratic governments in the region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democracy

Here is another article that provides an overview of how western powers advance their foreign policy goals through civil society initiatives, human rights support and humanitarian aid:

http://www.swans.com/library/art14/barker03.html

My guess is that all the candidates on the short list for the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize probably received funding or were associated with organizations that received funding directly or indirectly from NED.

kropotkin1951

Its not like he was a Canadian advocating for an Islamic constitution for our country.  I mean it would be normal and fully accepted for the Iranian government to fund his activities and CSIS and the RCMP would not give him a second thought.  Seems neither one of them would actually be advocating for a real democracy but many Iranians and many Americans are delusional enough to think their systems are democratic.

Unionist

Thanks laine - and kropotkin - for more perspective that one would have hoped was second nature on a board like this one!

 

Sean in Ottawa

So he is supported by the US. Criticize that.

Are we criticizing him for accepting support he needs?

Are we saying he is their creation?

And everyone who signed the document-- made in USA?

So now we should run after everything people we do not like support and criticize them if they accept it-- even when there may be no other means available?

We know the US supports dissidents in countries it sees as rivals-- but it is shaky logic then to assume that those dissidents are without any legitimacy for that reason alone.

I can agree to criticize the supporting money but that does not make China a place without dissent or that those dissenters don't have a legitimate point. Call for the US to stop funding dissent in other countries but it does not follow that we should condemn those who receive that support automatically.

 

Unionist

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Call for the US to stop funding dissent in other countries but it does not follow that we should condemn those who receive that support automatically.

Sean:

1. The Nobel Committee is interfering in China's sovereignty by its choice. Agreed?

2. I find everything I've read by Liu to be either trite or reactionary. My own opinion - not suggesting what China should or shouldn't do. I feel the same way about the Dalai Lama. It's not because they are (or have been) financed by the U.S. It's because of the ideological stands they promote. You and I can say we despise what the Taliban stands for, as long as we stop short of supporting invasion and occupation of Afghanistan. If the Chinese people decide to spring Liu from prison and elect him emperor or whatever, that will be just peachy with me. Likewise if the Taliban emerge victorious after the invaders are expelled. It's their business.

3. Dissidents - in any country - financed by foreign governments should be distinctly unsurprised to be tossed into prison. Agreed?

4. China is not socialist or progressive or left-wing. It appears to be a harsh capitalist regime like many others, with broad ambitions. The most positive thing one can say about it is that it does not threaten or attack other countries. Agreed?

Sorry to number my points in stilted fashion, but I'm trying to understand why opposition to the Nobel committee's move - and cynicism about this Liu person - needs to be equated to some kind of support for the Chinese regime?

6079_Smith_W

Unionist wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Call for the US to stop funding dissent in other countries but it does not follow that we should condemn those who receive that support automatically.

Sean:

1. The Nobel Committee is interfering in China's sovereignty by its choice. Agreed?

2. I find everything I've read by Liu to be either trite or reactionary. My own opinion - not suggesting what China should or shouldn't do. I feel the same way about the Dalai Lama. It's not because they are (or have been) financed by the U.S. It's because of the ideological stands they promote. You and I can say we despise what the Taliban stands for, as long as we stop short of supporting invasion and occupation of Afghanistan. If the Chinese people decide to spring Liu from prison and elect him emperor or whatever, that will be just peachy with me. Likewise if the Taliban emerge victorious after the invaders are expelled. It's their business.

3. Dissidents - in any country - financed by foreign governments should be distinctly unsurprised to be tossed into prison. Agreed?

4. China is not socialist or progressive or left-wing. It appears to be a harsh capitalist regime like many others, with broad ambitions. The most positive thing one can say about it is that it does not threaten or attack other countries. Agreed?

Sorry to number my points in stilted fashion, but I'm trying to understand why opposition to the Nobel committee's move - and cynicism about this Liu person - needs to be equated to some kind of support for the Chinese regime?

 

1. Well it's not like Norway invaded China or anything. Aside from the award money, which Liu has nowhere to spend, it is really just a matter of fair comment and negative publicity, which organizations and countries toss at one another all the time.

2. Your interpretation. From what I have read of the manifesto a lot of it describes the kind of society I would like to live in, though no, I don't agree with all of it either. That said, I wouldn't interpret everything in there (like a call for privatization) in absolute terms.

3. I think we have a whole new thread to kick that one around in. But I think the answer to your question depends entirely on the specific circumstances.... was it kosher for the German government and American financiers to give the bolsheviks a leg up against the Czar? Should we have sent volunteers in to interfere in the Spanish Civil War?

4. I don't think China is more of a threat than the U.S., but I disagree with the notion that they pose no threat. No power of any significant size is completely benign.

 

Sean in Ottawa

Unionist wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Call for the US to stop funding dissent in other countries but it does not follow that we should condemn those who receive that support automatically.

Sean:

1. The Nobel Committee is interfering in China's sovereignty by its choice. Agreed?

2. I find everything I've read by Liu to be either trite or reactionary. My own opinion - not suggesting what China should or shouldn't do. I feel the same way about the Dalai Lama. It's not because they are (or have been) financed by the U.S. It's because of the ideological stands they promote. You and I can say we despise what the Taliban stands for, as long as we stop short of supporting invasion and occupation of Afghanistan. If the Chinese people decide to spring Liu from prison and elect him emperor or whatever, that will be just peachy with me. Likewise if the Taliban emerge victorious after the invaders are expelled. It's their business.

3. Dissidents - in any country - financed by foreign governments should be distinctly unsurprised to be tossed into prison. Agreed?

4. China is not socialist or progressive or left-wing. It appears to be a harsh capitalist regime like many others, with broad ambitions. The most positive thing one can say about it is that it does not threaten or attack other countries. Agreed?

Sorry to number my points in stilted fashion, but I'm trying to understand why opposition to the Nobel committee's move - and cynicism about this Liu person - needs to be equated to some kind of support for the Chinese regime?

1 yes-- although I can't take it as a legitimate threat.

2 I don't agree with this and I don't find what he is saying is trite. Might seem so where we like to take some of those things for granted but no, can't agree.

3 No I don't agree, the financing of dissidents by foreign powers is a problem between the country and those doing the financing. I would not assume that taking money alone is a crime. If you use it violently then it would be. The complaint is with the donor not the recipient even if the recipient is an easier target. We can agree to disagree here. The same is true in Canada, if for example, some foreign power wanted to fund FN, I would thank them for it and be shocked if a person receiving that money went to jail. If France wanted to fund Quebec separation, I would not criminalize those who accept the money so long as theya re doing nothing illegal with it.

4 I am not sure that I can agree with all you say here. I can say I have seen no evidence to dispute what you say about not attacking other coutnries but I cannot agree to it as an assertion. Are you speaking about direct full-on military assault or including other more hidden attacks such as cyber attacks, economic etc.? I can only go as far as saying that I don't see evidence for that. How far back in history do we go? China is recognized as the Aggressor in the Sino-Indian war of 1962. In 1969, after provocation to be sure, the Chinese were the aggressors in the military conflict with the USSR. When Vietnam invaded Cambodia (not Chinese territory) China invaded Vietnam in 1969. China is moderately peaceful but I would not go as far as you in describing it as non-threatening.

I think we mostly agree but not quite.

And I do think there is a knee jerk defence of China here and likely not everyone is willing to go even as far as you have in qualifying China as not an example of progressive forces.

But my entry in to the thread was not inspired by comments of yours in any case.

 

Maysie Maysie's picture

Closing for length.

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