The Black Book of Communism

Hilarious. No one ever talks about the world wide starvation during the depression or blames capitalism for the death of the 12 million Americans who starved in the US during the great depression.

Let the airbrushing of history begin.

What about the countless suicides in capitalist society the constant sexual deprivation and relationship instability of lower class men in capitalist society?  Given brainwashing of women into status and economically based reasons for dating men. No one wants to talk about the death by deprivation that capitalist society inflicts on the people through the wage labor system.  Nor how many health, psychological and moral degradation issues living in a society laden by corrupt advertising.

100 million? I thought it was 100 billion. Why is this character understating the evils of the Left???

Never forget the 100 billion.

Quote:

What about the countless suicides in capitalist society the constant sexual deprivation and relationship instability of lower class men in capitalist society?  Given brainwashing of women into status and economically based reasons for dating men. No one wants to talk about the death by deprivation

Suddenly I do. LOL!

Death by sexual deprivation under Capitalism. Discuss.

Gee, I don't often get called "useful".

Cueball wrote:

Hilarious. No one ever talks about the world wide starvation during the depression or blames capitalism for the death of the 12 million Americans who starved in the US during the great depression.

Let the airbrushing of history begin.

Do you have a source for the 12 million figure?

While we're at it, let's discuss one of the true evils inflicted upon the world by American Capitalism: Modern Art

Using the demographic methods of the previously mentioned Black Book of Communism, some put the figure at over 7 million. But most reputable scholars reject the methodology used, in both instances.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus wrote:

Using the demographic methods of the previously mentioned Black Book of Communism, some put the figure at over 7 million. But most reputable scholars reject the methodology used, in both instances.

Wasn't using the methodolgy used to determine the death toll of the Ukrainian famine and applying it to the depression, the hidden point of Borisov's research?

Cueball wrote:

ygtbk wrote:

Cueball wrote:

Hilarious. No one ever talks about the world wide starvation during the depression or blames capitalism for the death of the 12 million Americans who starved in the US during the great depression.

Let the airbrushing of history begin.

Do you have a source for the 12 million figure?

Do you have a better figure of how many people starved to death during the great depression in the USA?

That wasn't an answer. But here's why I think the 12 million number is improbable. You can get annual population death rates from, for instance,

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005131.html

If you think that 12 million starved over, say, 1930-1939, that's 1.2 million a year, which on a population base of say 120 million is 1% (or 10 per 1000) per year. That means that the death rates for those years should be at least 20 per 1000, which they aren't. The death rate during the depression never cracks the death rate for 1925.

So, once again, what's your source for the 12 million figure?

What makes capitalists doubly guilty of genocide and infanticide around the democratic capitalist third world today is that it's happening in a modern age of computers and increasingly integrated global economies. Capitalism has the advantage of globalization working in its favour, and still tens of thousands are dying in agony every day like clockwork and millions every year. 85% of chronically hungry nations are exporting food to "the market" while their people are starving.

 Capitalists continue to hide millions of skeletons in their ideological closet of holocaust arithmetic every year. Capitalism works only if they ignore basic human rights to food and other necessities of life denied billions of human beings living in third world capitalist  misery. Capitalism is a colossal failure.

...and if he pulled it out of thin air, it matters how?

Now back to the question of modern art, the hoax perpetrated on the world by the CIA, please.

Cueball wrote:

ygtbk wrote:

Cueball wrote:

What's your figure?

Borisov makes a rather simple analysis that shows that based on previous demographic trends the US population in 1940 was at least 10 million less than it should have been. This is precisely the same kind of analysis used to establish the figure for the number of deaths caused in the Ukrainian famine of the 1930's.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander, as they say,

 

So is Borisov your source? If so, do you have a link to his paper (not the Pravda story that cites it) so we can see how he derived his estimate? Otherwise, can you describe the rather simple analysis for us?

I've already established that the 12 million figure is not plausible, using actual data, so the onus is on you to tell us where you got the 12 million figure. If you don't provide a source this time I might begin to suspect that you don't have one.

What is your figure for the number of people who starved to death in the USA during the depression. I am begining to suspect that you don't have one.

Sigh. It's clearly under 12 million, and I think 7 million is also far too high to be consistent with the data. I also think that I found your source:

http://www.northstarcompass.org/nsc0903/amholomor.htm

You can read this yourself to decide whether Borisov is a reliable source of demographic information, given that his objective appears to be to establish moral equivalence between the Holodomor (definitely caused by Stalin) and an American famine (caused by Hoover or FDR? Who can say?). I appear to have cut him too much slack by assuming deaths spread out over 10 years - since he refers to the "American Holodomor of 1932/33", a naive interpretation would be that the deaths occurred over two years, boosting the mortality rate by a factor of four or five. I'm pretty sure that someone other than Boris would have noticed this.

A real forensic analysis of the number of people who entered the NKVD penal system and the Gulag based on Kremlin archives released after the end of the Soviet Union in 1990: Victims of the Soviet penal system in the pre-war years -- Viktor Zemskov, as opposed to fudgery concocted out of totally unreliable census statistics, and guesstimates of how many people should have been born, how many might have been alive, and anecdotal accounts such as those found in the evocative poetry of Alexander Solschenizyn.

Yes. That is precisely what he is doing. And using precisely the same methodolgy of statistical analysis upon which your claim that Stalin caused "X" number of deaths by starvation is founded on. Yet for some reason, you take on face value the basis of your last assertion about Stalin and then reject the same method of analysis when applied to the USA. Just because you want to believe the last, and don't want to believe the former, it would seem.

You say that the deaths cause by famine in the Ukraine are directly the result of Stalin's government policy. In fact, I agree! Indeed, even Nikita Kruscheov agrees, it would seem. However, does not the fact that the US government bought huge amounts of surplus food from farmers, and then burned and otherwise destroyed it not also implicate the US government in hardship caused by the great depression? People are starving in the streets of New York, and the government is keeping the value of food prices high by reducing the supply of food.

How about the fact that millions were put into work camps, and paid next to nothing by the US government?

In anycase, what is your estimate and source for the number of deaths caused by the Great Depression in the USA.

Cueball wrote:

That is what I wanted you to say. Zero. Perfect. It shows that your commentary is completely unreliable and tainted by ideological bias. No one died during the Great Depression. If I went to a Soviet era commissar and asked him how many died during the Ukrainian famine, I would get the same answer, "zero", and he would likewise reveal that his views were completely unreliable and tainted by ideological bias.

Of course many people died in the Great Depression. And many people died in the Ukrainian famine as well. Its just that neither government bothered to any kind of clinincal analysis of the facts on the ground and then publish the results because it was not in their best interests to do so.

You never wondered why no US government agency has ever published any kind of serious study relating to the Great Depression and the impacts upon the population?

I said "to the nearest million, zero". This is not the same as zero. It means 500,000 or less. Did you look at the links I provided?

Cueball wrote:

Based on what? Did you just pull that figure out of the air?

No, I based it on the fact that there must have been some starvation deaths (only a commissar would say zero) but that there weren't enough, based on the death rates that I already posted, to move the mortality statistics, as I've already pointed out. That's my estimate and I'm sticking with it, until I see credible data that would cause me to update it.

ygtbk wrote:

Cueball wrote:

Based on what? Did you just pull that figure out of the air?

No, I based it on the fact that there must have been some starvation deaths (only a commissar would say zero) but that there weren't enough, based on the death rates that I already posted, to move the mortality statistics, as I've already pointed out. That's my estimate and I'm sticking with it, until I see credible data that would cause me to update it.

Your new material adds nothing to this discussion, It is a discussion about deaths from infectious diseases from 1900 to 1950.

Stalin cared about one thing, and one thing only: the REVOLUTION! And he kept the revolution going longer then reflection says was humanly possible. How does anyone KNOW what misinfo the ratwingers were slipping into Stalin's daily briefing papers? The brits got to RULE India by lying and cheating and ratting and all sorts of nasty tricks even that ancient culture hadn't even though of (i read a book recently set in 1947 India/Pakistan breakup where the ex colonist brits were commonly referred to as 'four-twenties' which was the India Police Service code for 'petty thieves!)  Stalin was, no question, as ruthless a revolutionary as the world has ever seen. Stalin never did anything without thinking about the Paris Commune and the failure of the revolution to consolidate its early success, and the horrific price it paid for eventually losing to overwhelming reactionary force. It seems a great, unspeakable TRAGEDY that the revolution failed, is failing - the USSR was effectively murdered by a multi generational plot hatched and carried out in secrecy- with the pig's media the main player in hiding the facts from the people. No one here at Babble even seems startled by the simple truth that it was the allies, Britain & USA mainly, who caused the division of Germany, the 'cold war' and the Iron curtain, and the subsequent appalling burden the USSR was forced to carry  The USSR was killed, and the same confidence tracksters (churchill, Truman etc) types who arranged the 'Iron Curtain'  have since arranged the murder of JFK, the coup against Nixon, the placing of 1/2 wit reagan into white house in 1980, the KAL shootdown in 1983 and god knows what else since. The mass media, in order to be succesful under the prevailing rules of ad hoc dishonesty, has been turned into prostitutes. No matter how much integrity they have, they have to sell out if they want to work in newsmedia

ygtbk wrote:

Cueball wrote:

So your revisionist estimate is lower by a factor of 14 than Borisov's census based guesstimate. That is about the same factor of difference between many of the pre-1990 guesstimates about deaths caused by Stalin during the 1930's (such as those by Robert Conquest) based in the same methodology used by Borisov to assertain the number of deaths caused by the Great Depression, and a real forensic analysis of Soviet State archives that were opened after 1990.

Your new material adds nothing to this discussion, It is a discussion about deaths from infectious diseases from 1900 to 1950.

No, Figures 4 and 5 in the second link are all-in (not just infectious diseases). And the death rates in the first link are quite clear, and leave no room for 7-12 million famine deaths, as I've already demonstrated.

The data on deaths per thousand is very simplistic.

That kind of simplistic data really says nothing without analysis. Indeed, if you look at the year 1900 you can see a vast drop in the rate of death per 1000 over the period up to 1930,  So, one can consider that advances in medical science are decreasing the overall death rate steadly. In the case of the Great Depression we do not know if advances in medical science are increasing the longevity of those who are best served by society, while deaths per thousand in the bottom strata of society are dying from privation.

So what you should actually be looking for is a consistent rate of decrease in the number of death's per thousand, and indeed, looking at the period between 1930 and 1940 we can see no consistent decrease in the number of deaths per thousand, and between 1930 and 1937 the deaths per thousand hovers around the same mark as it does in 1930.

After 1940, there is a return to a consistent patern of decrease in deaths per thousand over the next decade. No such consistent decrease is evident in the decade before and the depression era decade ends with roughly the same number of deaths per thousand, as it begins.

Cueball wrote:

You missed the point. The entire reason I brought up Borisov was to establish how the whole census based guesstimates system was a bunch of hocus-pocus. For my money, the whole reason that Borisov did his estimate in this way was to show what a bunch of hocus pocus the system used for establishing the number of people who died in the Ukrainian Famine and the Stalin purges was a bunch of hocus pocus, that either you or I can do on the back of a napkin, because he can use the same system of analysis applied in the Soviet case to establish that 7 million people died of privation in the USA during the great depression.

There are real statistics around based in archival records released by the post soviet government of Russia. There is no longer a reason to go through this phoney census based estimation.

Now. You still have got to explain why there is no meaningful decline in the number of deaths per thousand in the years between 1930 and 1937, that is consistent with the rate of decline in the period 1940 and 1950, where the number of deaths per thousand drops by 1 per thousand, whereas, between 1930 and 1937, the height of the depression years there is no real decline are all. The rate of deaths per thousand remains steady, and even hits the high water mark of deaths per thousand of 1925 in 1937!

No, I did not miss the point. You claimed 12 million starvation deaths in the U.S., and you were demonstrably wrong. Worse, it seems that the only reason you claimed it was to discredit a position that I never took, not because you thought it was true.

The only reason you can possibly think this is because you didn't read what I wrote in post number 18:

Cueball wrote:

Lard Tunderin Jeezus wrote:

Using the demographic methods of the previously mentioned Black Book of Communism, some put the figure at over 7 million. But most reputable scholars reject the methodology used, in both instances.

Wasn't using the methodolgy used to determine the death toll of the Ukrainian famine and applying it to the depression, the hidden point of Borisov's research?

In other words, Borisov is making a joke.

So, instead of priding yourself in your awesome abilities of analysis and argumentation, do me the favour of letting me speak for myself, and you can speak for yourself.

Now in the period between 1925 and 1937 there is no consistent decline in the deaths per thousand per year, as can be seen in the data of the chart you provided. Based on the 10 year period following we would expect a consistent decline in the rate of deaths per thousand of at least 1 per thousand per year. Such is not evident during the depression.

Therefore, it seems logical to assert that there is at least 0.1% increase in unwarranted deaths in the United States over the depression years, each and every year. This means, that between 1929 and 1937, a period of 8 years, 0.8% more Americans died than should have. Based on a population base of 130 million, I think its safe to say that at least a million Americans died prematurely during the Great Depression.

Cueball wrote:

Now in the period between 1925 and 1937 there is no consistent decline in the deaths per thousand per year, as can be seen in the data of the chart you provided. Based on the 10 year period following we would expect a consistent decline in the rate of deaths per thousand of at least 1 per thousand per year. Such is not evident during the depression.

Therefore, it seems logical to assert that there is at least 0.1% increase in unwarranted deaths in the United States over the depression years, each and every year. This means, that between 1929 and 1937, a period of 8 years, 0.8% more Americans died than should have. Based on a population base of 130 million, I think its safe to say that at least a million Americans died prematurely during the Great Depression.

This is considerably closer to my estimate than 12 million was. Changing "died of starvation" to "died prematurely compared with what would have happened if the trend of the 20's had continued" is of course changing what we're talking about, but the second one is hard to disagree with.

Evening Star wrote:

Tbf, India was basically a democratic [i]socialist[/i] country until the 90s.

Tbt, India has the [url=http://www.indiaonestop.com/stockmarkjets.htm]oldest stock market in Asia[/url]. Stock markets are generally always associated with capitalism and never with socialism.

Here is what infant mortality rates per 1000 live births of democratic capitalist India and some third world capitalist countries look like according to [url=http://search.worldbank.org/data?qterm=infant%20mortality&language=EN&fo... Bank Statistics:[/url]

WB wrote:

India: 50.3

Pakistan: [color=red]70.5[/color] 

Haiti: [color=red]63.7[/color]

Rwanda: [color=red]70.4[/color]

Uganda: [color=red]79.4[/color]

Afghanistan: [color=red]Anywhere from God awful to terrible[/color] after 30 year's worth of CIA and US Military and now NATO intervention

And here is what infant mortality rates look like in countries where socialist style health care is the way:

WB wrote:

[color=green]Cuba: 4.4

Canada: 5.3

Sweden: 2.3

Japan: 2.4

Germany: 3.5

South Korea: 4.5[/color]

Socialism works. Socialism is the humane way to stabilize population growth and to nurture healthy workers contributing to productive and competitive economies.

Democratic third world capitalism and cash crop capitalism, OTOH, has been a monumental failure for billions of human beings.