Immigration fix

49 posts / 0 new

Topic locked

Sun, 2010-11-07 06:06

bruce_the_vii

Immigration fix

Immigration Fix

Immigration has been politicalized and the annual numbers are high. It's well know across Canada that Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver are the main destination cities but these cities are not coping and have unemployment, congestion and infrastructure issues. A simple fix exists and would be a tonic for the entire Canadian economy. I can express this in a paragraph.

The annual numbers should be reduced with emphasis on the basics of family reunification, refugees and also foreign talent for corporations. Then when a specific city got ahead of the influx and developed labour shortages you would have a special movement to just that city of local business nominated immigrants. That is you would have a just-in-time movement to a city only of people with skills that businesses were finding hard to fill. This way you could fine tune the quota to a few thousand rather than the present one size fits all quarter of a million. It would be a tonic for the entire national economy. Theoretically it would be an anti-inflation tool but probably not effective enough. The Harper government has tried to make immigration just-in-time with an expanded Temporary Foreign Worker movement but the current program is somewhat blunt and bizarre.

Sun, 2010-11-07 06:54

Maysie

bruce, I'm going to keep your blatantly anti-immigrant post up for a bit (which is against babble's policy by the way), just to see how well babblers can destroy your "arguments". Then I'm going to close it.

There are many reasons immigrants come to Canada's large and medium-sized cities.

1. Inexpensive housing (in the inner and outer suburbs). Sometimes sub-standard. Given the dismal public transit access, anywhere else one would probably have to buy a car, which is harder to do if one doesn't have a legal license to drive in whichever province one is in.

2. Low-paying jobs, which are almost exclusively the only jobs they can get, since they have "No Canadian Experience". Yeah this includes engineers and surgeons. Who get "points" for such high education levels and job experience from their countries of origin, and then get to be a security guard (they make minimum wage, btw) or a fruit picker or work in the kitchen of a restaurant (they do not).

The work of immigrants runs the cities of Canada.

The economy of large cities depends on people in low-paying, often illegal jobs. The economy would collapse if every worker was paid what her work was actually worth. Since employers will not pay minimum wage for such jobs, and anyone Canadian-born would likely demand minimum wage. And employers can't use the threat of being deported against Canadians. Many employers seek out vulnerable folks (immigrants, refugees, or people without status) who are so desperate for money they will work long hours and under dangerous conditions sometimes. If a job is illegal, there is nowhere to go if your employer doesn't pay you, or pays you less than they said they would. And the pay is crappy anyways. And being treated like shit. And sexual harassment. Some well-meaning reporter "goes under" once in a while to expose the conditions in which many immigrants find work, such as day labour jobs for men, and cleaning the homes of the rich for women.

3. Community and services. There are usually larger clusters and neighbourhoods of diaspora in larger towns and cities. In 40 years (or longer) I'm sure such neighbourhoods will be applauded as being "part of Canada's bullshit cultural mosaic" and be on all the bus tours for visitors and tourists, but until such time, people who are not Canadian-born from countries that haven't been "vetted" by 50-100 years of immigration are regarded as a negative by the FOOFs* and their dupes, here in Toronto anyways. Yet such communities are rich sources of cultural and sometimes spiritual support for newcomers.

As well, language services, settlement services, all manner of significant services to help immigrants adjust to life in Canada, due to drastic cuts, are mostly available in the cities and larger towns of Canada. Go figure.

4. The Temporary Foreign Worker Program is fucked up, exploitative and serves the needs of employers only. Big surprise. I know people who are working to organize the workers in the such programs and successes are slow-going. Justice for Migrant Workers

Believing the hype in the MSM and blaming immigrants is not okay. If it's not now clear to you why, bruce, then I don't know what else I can say.

*FOOF= Fine Old Ontario Family. Think the Westons, think the Eatons.

Sun, 2010-11-07 08:02

bruce_the_vii

Er dear my post is strictly pro-worker, pro-immigrant, pro-progess. I am not blaming immigrants I am saying the government should get the numbers right, I am blaming the government for inattention to the issue. There's a difference between blaming the government and blaming immigrants.

I am an activist and have talked to a lot of immigrants and they are all for getting the numbers right, a good economy and social progress. This idea you have that the immigrants that come here are pleased with minimum wage jobs is a little bizarre - they have their eye on the house, the car, the pension and the future for their children. They see the wealth around and think what's this minimum wage.

This idea you have is that immigrants take below minimum wage jobs is also off kilter, that would be saying society can be nicely organized into desperate immigrants from the third world and us - appartied. We're all in this boat together - we want a better economy.

I am posting on Babble because this is a pro-immigrant idea. It's a rather simple idea and I thought it would be fun to hear some support. I wouldn't post here to cause a problem. However if you want to go on about how Babble is pro-immigrant part of my job as an activist is to handle a tough crowd.

Sun, 2010-11-07 08:11

E.Tamaran

Interesting. Why is continued immigration to Turtle Island a good thing? Hmmmm. The only thing it brought to First Nations was death and destruction, and some people want to continue it and expand it! Well, that's why FNs are taking control of the little land they have left and enforcing some cultural or racial standards.

Sun, 2010-11-07 08:24

Maysie

bruce where did I say that immigrants are pleased with the status quo? I didn't.

And don't call me "dear" unless you want me to call you "my little pumpkin tartlette".

bruce wrote:
It's well know across Canada that Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver are the main destination cities but these cities are not coping and have unemployment, congestion and infrastructure issues.

Linking these municipal issues to "too many immigrants" is, in fact, anti-immigrant.

Sun, 2010-11-07 08:52

bruce_the_vii

Thank you for your response. However, please calm down. I've worked on the arithmetic of immigration for 19 years now and have some good ideas. I have all party support in the backbench of Parliament.

Linking immigration to the problems of the major municipalities is not anti-immigrant. It's not anti-immigrant to suggest that the high immigrant numbers cause some problems. It's anti-government. The government would have you believe critcizing it is anti-immigrant - it's a lie they tell. I would never blame some desperate family from the third world for wanting to come to Canada.

The immigrant communitiy here wants the numbers right; this is pro-immigrant. The immigrant community is largely not "well-established" and bear the brunt of social and economic problems. Some of the numbers on Toronto are astounding and this is why the discussion is going forward.

Sun, 2010-11-07 09:31

Maysie

bruce, I'm not sure we live in the same Canada.

Governments at all levels encourage anti-immigrant beliefs, thoughts and actions. In fact, they go out of their way to communicate lies that immigrants are the source of all kinds of problems: traffic congestion; the economy; lower school test scores; global warming (okay that one's just me being silly).

Blaming immigrants is as old as any form of xenophobia.

You live in Toronto right? Immigrants are 50% of the population of the City of Toronto. You remember Rob Ford's successful mayoral campaign platform don't you? And how one of his five talking points was exactly the point you're making?

I work with service organizations, some of which are immigrant settlement organizations. Talk to someone from one of those places sometime, bruce. Ask them about their vastly stable funding (not), their huge amount of government support for their programs and services (not), the general support for their organization in the wider community (not). Organizations have to fight hateful xenophobia on all fronts, never mind dealing with the daily realities of racism faced by most of their service users.

COSTI Immigration Services

Bloor Information and Life Skills Centre (the website doesn't appear to have been updated in a while)

CultureLink

Sun, 2010-11-07 09:44

Sineed

Not to mention the hypocrisy of the federal government, that happily collects taxes and benefits from the cheap labour supplied by immigrants while carrying on with the paranoid anti-immigrant rhetoric that plays so well to their base.

Sun, 2010-11-07 09:52

bruce_the_vii

Well, governments blaming immigrants and xenophobia are not the issue - I'm talking that the numbers have to be right and that this would improve conditions. For starters I point to how Edmonton and Calgary are examples of cities that have out grown their population and their numbers are better. The have lower unemployment, lower child poverty and fewer people earning less than $12 a hour. So actually we have examples of what to do.

If Rob Ford is anti-immigrant why did he win in a city that is 50% immigrant. Whats's the voter calculus of that?

Rob Ford said only that the immigration totals are high and the problems already too many and they are linked. Some one working with social services will certainly know the problems are too many.

The economics of immigration, the link with social problems, is not clear. It's true. However you can make out from key numbers on Toronto that immigration is not the advertised panacea. Calling it xenophobia, raising immigration as beyond question is not the answer either.

Sun, 2010-11-07 10:21

#10

ElizaQ

Why is 'getting the numbers right' for cities just based on immigrant numbers? What about the numbers of other Canadians that move into the cities from smaller areas on an ongoing basis? Congestion, infrastructure problems and unemployment are issues that affect everyone that lives there or moves in regardless of where they are from. If quotas are being discussed then why not quotas that apply to everyone no matter where they originally come from.

Sun, 2010-11-07 11:05

#11

bruce_the_vii

ElizaQ wrote:

Why is 'getting the numbers right' for cities just based on immigrant numbers? What about the numbers of other Canadians that move into the cities from smaller areas on an ongoing basis? Congestion, infrastructure problems and unemployment are issues that affect everyone that lives there or moves in regardless of where they are from. If quotas are being discussed then why not quotas that apply to everyone no matter where they originally come from.

Immigration is a economic parameter that you can actually control and usually is controlled- that's why. You can play with it like the central banks play with interest rates. On the other hand in Canada people have rights including being able to move around. Also you actually want people to move from depressed regions to where the jobs are as this fixes the country. Fixing the main cities would encourage more Canadians to move to them and as such is a national program.

As an activist I've talked to people in the hinterland around Toronto, cottage country, and the people there see Toronto as an option for their kids to move to have a better career. It's an issue with them.

Mon, 2010-11-08 20:10

#12

sanizadeh

bruce_the_vii wrote:

Immigration has been politicalized and the annual numbers are high. It's well know across Canada that Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver are the main destination cities but these cities are not coping and have unemployment, congestion and infrastructure issues. A simple fix exists and would be a tonic for the entire Canadian economy. I can express this in a paragraph.

That's absolutely true. But I have a better solution: let's leave the urban areas to immigrants who are generally much smarter and better educated than average Canadians, and move the white Canadians to rural areas where they can work the farms, factories and other menial jobs.

Mon, 2010-11-08 20:23

#13

j.m.

More fuel to the fire:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/11/07/david-mckie-marriages-of-conve...

Xenophobes (second+ generation canadians and shameless politicians) find a non-story everyday. I've got a better story: how many immigrants LEAVE places like Canada, Europe and the US because of racism or a dislike of these cultures.

Mon, 2010-11-08 20:52

#14

6079_Smith_W

Hmm... I think someone might have watched Deliverance a few too many times, and not gotten out of town enough to actually meet people who live there.

I can think of some Canadians I would prefer to have not let loose outside of the city limits - weekend snowmobilers and quad riders. As for newcomers, I think they should have the opportunity to see the beauty of this country if they so choose.

But seriously, shortage of skilled positions, most notably doctors, is a very real problem in many rural areas. Want to take the pressure off urban areas? Take measures to stop the infrastructure decay, and the decline in business and farm culture that is happening in rural areas. Governments already give incentives to skilled people to move out of cities. It would be helpful if they helped change things so that more people WANTED to move there.

I know the recent change to recognize doctors trained in all contries if they pass our exam is a long overdue reform. I once planted trees with a doctor who could not practice because he was from Poland, not Britain or South Africa.

But no bruce, if there is a problem you are describing (overcrowded cities, I am guessing) I don't think immigration has anything to do with the root problem, actually.

Mon, 2010-11-08 21:34

#15

Fidel

Canada is a BIG, HUGE, and not even a small country by any means with unparalleled in the world natural resource wealth. And we a relatively tiny, minuscule population.

Let them come to Canada by the boat loads. And they will build this country into something wonderful.

Mon, 2010-11-08 21:53

#16

takeitslowly

I am currently handing out newspaper near the subway station, and many of my co workers are also doing the same job, they are students from foreign countries.

Its not just immigrants, its students from other countries visiting this country, they are competing jobs with the local.

It's not immigration, its just what a free trade country signed up for.

Mon, 2010-11-08 21:58

#17

sanizadeh

takeitslowly wrote:

I am currently handing out newspaper near the subway station, and many of my co workers are also doing the same job, they are students from foreign countries.

Its not just immigrants, its students from other countries visiting this country, they are competing jobs with the local.

It's not immigration, its just what a free trade country signed up for.

Yeah, all those newspaper delivery jobs that are being taken away from real Canadians. I am outraged. If we don't stop it, next time they may mail us our daily paper from India.

Mon, 2010-11-08 22:32

#18

Fidel

I don't mind competition as long as it's fair. But the playing field is anything but fair. Capitalism doesn't work if global investors are optimistic about every country. A lot of the capitalist myth surrounding economic competitiveness is not about economic dynamism or rewarding excellence. It's not even about free markets. It's about holding back whole nations of people in order to rig markets in their favour.

Mon, 2010-11-08 22:42

#19

takeitslowly

Actually, I am happy to have any job, even if its just handing out paper. For me, its hard to find any job in Toronto.

Tue, 2010-11-09 03:52

#20

bruce_the_vii

Toronto has rather a lot of problems now.

The 2006 Census puts child poverty at 31.8% in the City proper. The United Way puts the median income of families with child in the City proper as $12,800 less than the Ontario median (2007 report). And 16.5% of adults in the GTA are working for less than 12$ an hour versus 7.4% in full employment Calgary (2008 figures). It is not the engine of the Canadian economy any more. This idea that Toronto is thee worlds foremost immigration city is out of date. These numbers are grievous and can be sold to a generally inattentive public.

My idea is that the cities of the world are where economic growth takes place and they should be the leading edge of social and economic progress and toggling the immigration just so would help to do that.

Tue, 2010-11-09 04:14

#21

bruce_the_vii

6079_Smith_W wrote:

But no bruce, if there is a problem you are describing (overcrowded cities, I am guessing) I don't think immigration has anything to do with the root problem, actually.

This is the attitude you encounter. The Greater Tononto Area is 43% immigrants, some such, but the immigrants have nothing to do with the crowding of the city. This idea that immigration is beyond reproach is common enough. In fact their human, just like you and me.

The idea that Toronto is big enough already sells to rather a wide swath of society, to rich and to poor. If the area goes up to 9 million the average house price will be $1m - as it is in NYC, London and Paris. It'd be world class alright but too expensive to live in. If you had a seperate legistated minimum wage for Toronto that was high you can actually cause businesses to relocate to Kingston and that.

Tue, 2010-11-09 04:30

#22

bruce_the_vii

Fidel wrote:

Canada is a BIG, HUGE, and not even a small country by any means with unparalleled in the world natural resource wealth. And we a relatively tiny, minuscule population.

Let them come to Canada by the boat loads. And they will build this country into something wonderful.

This would be Fidel's "capitalism is great, just look at the immigration" post.

Tue, 2010-11-09 10:50

#23

6079_Smith_W

@ bruce

I think the illusion that everything must happen in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal is just because there are a lot of people there, and because our governments have followed the lead of big business in pushing all the resources, services and control into those few centres of power. You save a lot of money by letting smaller cities and towns wither and die, and you don't have to take care of roads, power lines and other services

Mining (including oil), forestry, agriculture, fishing are among the prime traditional drivers of the Canadian economy, and none of which take place in our big cities. Unfortunatley the main driver of our exploding cities is the fact that these industries are being taken over by bigger and bigger companies. More and more people are losing their livelihood and being forced to go to cities. The problem isn't so much that the sectors are shrinking (though some of them are) it is that people and jobs are being removed from the equation as an excess cost, and rural communities go with them.

Once big businesses have done their job driving all the surplus people out of work and into the city, governments can just let them turn everything into company towns just like back in the good old days.

Service is currently our fastest growing sector. The assumption that all of that leading edge of business has to be packed into the few hundred square miles of our biggest cities is just perpetuating a bad trend that will eventually crash as surely as everything else about our out-of-balance system will crash. Our technology, which is the main part of that service sector, allows many people to work from anywhere (I remember reading back in the late 80s about a wave of architects and other professionals moving into the Nelson area because the internet allowed them to work from home). What's the point if people are still thinking about industry the way we did 50 years ago? And what's the point if governments continue to gut services to those areas? I also happened to be in Nelson a few years back around the time they announced removal of 24-hour emergency services from the Hospital in Nelson, which is located in a deep valley where air ambulance is completely dependent on the weather. Too bad babies come at unpredictable times.

And the notion that everything must happen in our three biggest cities is also not true. If one takes the time to look there are businesses smart enough to realize that there are advantages to not fighting for space at the corner of Bloor and Yonge.

And the notion of different minimum wages for big cities? I wonder what would come first.... the court challenge or the contracts to build more roads for all the new commuters. Maybe it is a better idea to tackle that problem from the other end - reduce costs, or help the people who are already trying to maintain and build communities outside of the big cities.

Sorry if I am contributing to the drift away from the thread title. Hopefully this isn't a bad thing.

Tue, 2010-11-09 17:54

#24

Iwant Liberty

sanizadeh wrote:

...But I have a better solution: let's leave the urban areas to immigrants who are generally much smarter and better educated than average Canadians, and move the white Canadians to rural areas where they can work the farms, factories and other menial jobs.

Wow. You're a nut. There aren't factories in rural areas.

Tue, 2010-11-09 18:21

#25

Maysie

Iwant Liberty wrote:
Wow. You're a nut.

Iwant Liberty, no personal attacks. Stop it. Now.

Tue, 2010-11-09 19:00

#26

Le T

Can someone point out the treaty that gives settlers the power to control immigration?

The Canadian government (and the settler populations under its yoke) only has the power that is given to it through the international treaties made with Indigenous governments that allow it to exist.

The feds (and their multi-partisan, backbencher-supported buddy bruce) have no right to control immigration. They only have the power to decide who is a "Canadian".

So I would argue that anyone can immigrate to any part of Turtle Island, so long as they have the permission of the people whose territory they would like to live on.

The Canadian government consistently oversteps its power and does so in racist, xenophobic ways. If bruce is worried about over population of Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal, he and his friends in government should leave and encourage other anti-immigrant folks to do so too. I just hope that you get a better reception in your new home than you extend to your potential neighbours.

Tue, 2010-11-09 19:16

#27

ElizaQ

Iwant Liberty wrote:

sanizadeh wrote:

...But I have a better solution: let's leave the urban areas to immigrants who are generally much smarter and better educated than average Canadians, and move the white Canadians to rural areas where they can work the farms, factories and other menial jobs.

Wow. You're a nut. There aren't factories in rural areas.

Except that there are.

Tue, 2010-11-09 19:45

#28

6079_Smith_W

ElizaQ wrote:

Iwant Liberty wrote:

sanizadeh wrote:

...But I have a better solution: let's leave the urban areas to immigrants who are generally much smarter and better educated than average Canadians, and move the white Canadians to rural areas where they can work the farms, factories and other menial jobs.

Wow. You're a nut. There aren't factories in rural areas.

Except that there are.

I wasn't sure if IWL was being facetious or not. I do know though that there is a hell of a lot more menial work in cities than there is out in the country. Most of the people I see taking the crops off are riding in air conditioned comfort.

Tue, 2010-11-09 19:55

#29

bruce_the_vii

6079_Smith_W wrote:

@ bruce

I think the illusion that everything must happen in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal is just because there are a lot of people there, and because our governments have followed the lead of big business in pushing all the resources, services and control into those few centres of power. You save a lot of money by letting smaller cities and towns wither and die, and you don't have to take care of roads, power lines and other services

Mining (including oil), forestry, agriculture, fishing are among the prime traditional drivers of the Canadian economy, and none of which take place in our big cities. Unfortunatley the main driver of our exploding cities is the fact that these industries are being taken over by bigger and bigger companies. More and more people are losing their livelihood and being forced to go to cities. The problem isn't so much that the sectors are shrinking (though some of them are) it is that people and jobs are being removed from the equation as an excess cost, and rural communities go with them.

Once big businesses have done their job driving all the surplus people out of work and into the city, governments can just let them turn everything into company towns just like back in the good old days.

Service is currently our fastest growing sector. The assumption that all of that leading edge of business has to be packed into the few hundred square miles of our biggest cities is just perpetuating a bad trend that will eventually crash as surely as everything else about our out-of-balance system will crash. Our technology, which is the main part of that service sector, allows many people to work from anywhere (I remember reading back in the late 80s about a wave of architects and other professionals moving into the Nelson area because the internet allowed them to work from home). What's the point if people are still thinking about industry the way we did 50 years ago? And what's the point if governments continue to gut services to those areas? I also happened to be in Nelson a few years back around the time they announced removal of 24-hour emergency services from the Hospital in Nelson, which is located in a deep valley where air ambulance is completely dependent on the weather. Too bad babies come at unpredictable times.

And the notion that everything must happen in our three biggest cities is also not true. If one takes the time to look there are businesses smart enough to realize that there are advantages to not fighting for space at the corner of Bloor and Yonge.

And the notion of different minimum wages for big cities? I wonder what would come first.... the court challenge or the contracts to build more roads for all the new commuters. Maybe it is a better idea to tackle that problem from the other end - reduce costs, or help the people who are already trying to maintain and build communities outside of the big cities.

Sorry if I am contributing to the drift away from the thread title. Hopefully this isn't a bad thing.

Certainly the smaller cities have lots of advantages to offer. I don't argue that. I saw a statistic this week that there is migration in the USA away from the big cities to the medium and smaller ones. The big cities are expensive and in the US, dangerous.

I grew up in the 1950's and 1960's in Trail, BC. I understand that the zinc plant there is automated and employs half the people it used to. I of course familiar with Nelson.

Tue, 2010-11-09 20:14

#30

6079_Smith_W

@ bruce

If I remember correctly the reason they gave for taking the emergency room from Nelson was so they could move it to the smelter. There may have been some politics involved in the decision.

Tue, 2010-11-09 20:22

#31

bruce_the_vii

Trail is big enough to support a reasonable sized hospital. Even the old smelter was a safe workplace.

Tue, 2010-11-09 20:28

#32

6079_Smith_W

Actually I just checked and it looks like Kootenay Lake Hospital does have 24 hour emergency again. Looks like they reversed that bad decision.

http://www.kbrh.ca/patientinfo/patientinfo.html

Anyway... sorry for the diversion.

Tue, 2010-11-09 20:39

#33

Fidel

bruce_the_vii wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Canada is a BIG, HUGE, and not even a small country by any means with unparalleled in the world natural resource wealth. And we a relatively tiny, minuscule population.

Let them come to Canada by the boat loads. And they will build this country into something wonderful.

This would be Fidel's "capitalism is great, just look at the immigration" post.

I think the difference is that socialists believe in free labour markets and free movement of labour. Our two "laissez-faire" capitalist parties in Ottawa do not. They believe in making it harder for workers to certify and more difficult for the free flow of labour across borders in general. Our raw materials and energy are guaranteed international passage rights however and for real cheap, too.

Wed, 2010-11-10 02:25

#34

bruce_the_vii

Socialts believe in unions which are not free labour markets. And the analogy with raw resources (and capital flows) is not a good analogy. free movement of labour would just reduce the price. you can't open the doors of Canada to the billions in the rest of the world. what you can do is run the Canadian ship tightly and not screw up like the USA and the EU have done. The nation state is a community and the community can make sure it's look after properly. they share labour markets, interest rates and social programs and these can be run properly. in the modern world the unit is the nation state (in canada two nations) although we tend to forget it.

Wed, 2010-11-10 05:23

#35

Le T

Quote:
The nation state is a community and the community can make sure it's look after properly.

Kinda protofacist, eh?

Quote:
in the modern world the unit is the nation state (in canada two nations) although we tend to forget it.

Ok. Now you're just making stuff up. And did you just erase Indigenous Peoples from existance? OMG! You did! Two nations, really? You mean like Quebec and the ROC? That's funny, you're like a progressive xenophobe from the 70's. Cute.

Wed, 2010-11-10 05:54

#36

bruce_the_vii

protofascist? man that's a stretch. people sort of forget that your health insurance, unemployment insurance and Old Age Security are all part of a community program and that is national program. it's funny but the community here in Canada is the 34 million.

I forgot to mention the First Nations? Yeah in fact by calling canada two nations I forgot to mention there are millions of immigrants here represent maybe 200 nations, nations being culture in my grade 11 history definition.

I don't know anything about the First Nations. I'm not the go to person to about that issue.

Wed, 2010-11-10 06:10

#37

bruce_the_vii

Protofasist. You real swing the big insults per post there Le T. I call myself an activist and people tell me how I'm doing. They tell me all that I'm allowed is a "polite pin" in public, such as this forum. It's gnarled english refering to formal wrestling. If you rant the public won't listen. If you have a very good arguement people will remember for a life time.

Wed, 2010-11-10 09:40

#38

George Victor

ElizaQ wrote:

Iwant Liberty wrote:

sanizadeh wrote:

...But I have a better solution: let's leave the urban areas to immigrants who are generally much smarter and better educated than average Canadians, and move the white Canadians to rural areas where they can work the farms, factories and other menial jobs.

Wow. You're a nut. There aren't factories in rural areas.

Except that there are.

And not all rural people ride around their fields in "air conditioned comfort" eh? Certainly not the folks from Mexico and The Islands who are required to bend and stoop and reach and ...well, do it by hand.

And, of course, when hyperbole (with exaggeration, a fine form of humour) is mistaken for an honest to Gaia statement, we wonder if all such attempts should be followed by "just kiddin' " .

Thanks, EQ. Someone the other day said something about "all manufacturing has now left Ontario, we're too late to save it, and must concentrate on minerals and forests..." (or some such). I' ve always been taken with the host of skilled people who maintain the machinery (and who make new products) "out there" in the towns and villages.

Wed, 2010-11-10 11:15

#39

6079_Smith_W

George, I know that, and my comment was half in jest. But it's not all stoop labour. That pretty much depends on the crop. I certainly see better cars out of town than I do in town. And the implication of "menial" may be appropriate for some work situations, there's nothing intrinsically shameful about hand work.

And like I said, I think there's a lot more of it in the city than in the country. At least that's the impression I got from all the bad radio played by roofing and painting crews that woke me up many mornings this summer.

Wed, 2010-11-10 11:25

#40

Le T

Protofascist wasn't an insult. It is what I would call refering to a nation state as community that "needs to make sure it looks after itself properly". I am paraphrasing 'cause your grammar is a lit unclear so perhaps I didn't get what you were saying.

Quote:
I forgot to mention the First Nations? Yeah in fact by calling canada two nations I forgot to mention there are millions of immigrants here represent maybe 200 nations, nations being culture in my grade 11 history definition.

I don't know anything about the First Nations. I'm not the go to person to about that issue.

So, by your own admission you know nothing about Indigenous Peoples and the treaties that led to the existance of Canada but you are willing to offer comment on who should be allowed to come here? Why don't you put as much effort into educating yourself about the basic history of your "community" as you do into worring about how many migrants need to be blocked from coming here? I would suggest that it is because your privilege allows you to. Sorry, is that insulting too?

Wed, 2010-11-10 21:04

#41

Iwant Liberty

6079_Smith_W wrote:

ElizaQ wrote:

Iwant Liberty wrote:

sanizadeh wrote:

...But I have a better solution: let's leave the urban areas to immigrants who are generally much smarter and better educated than average Canadians, and move the white Canadians to rural areas where they can work the farms, factories and other menial jobs.

Wow. You're a nut. There aren't factories in rural areas.

Except that there are.

I wasn't sure if IWL was being facetious or not. I do know though that there is a hell of a lot more menial work in cities than there is out in the country. Most of the people I see taking the crops off are riding in air conditioned comfort.

LOL, we shouldn't lose our sense of humour so easily. Yes, I was (trying) to be funny. Apparently not very successfully.

Wed, 2010-11-10 21:33

#42

6079_Smith_W

That makes two of us.

<joke> We should remember to use the right tags. </joke>

Wed, 2010-11-10 22:00

#43

Fidel

Fascism would be a step up and to the right for Canada. Canada's just a northern colony led by vicious toadies and corporate stooges. Our's is merely a corrupt conservative nanny state and Satan's little helper is all. There are no protofascists here. Crypto-fascists and boot-lickers for Uncle Sam and neofascists in that country maybe. But we're all outa protos here. And the systematic racism here in Canada tends to be a lot more subtle compared to Amerika</serious joke>

Thu, 2010-11-11 02:25

#44

bruce_the_vii

we're a corrupt colony of conservative nanny state cryto-fascist but now the worlds leading immigration nation, the prefered destination for people from 180 other countries. About half of them people of coloured and not so concerned about the subtle racism here as to not to come and then to actually stay.

Thu, 2010-11-11 11:31

#45

Le T

Quote:
we're a corrupt colony of conservative nanny state cryto-fascist but now the worlds leading immigration nation, the prefered destination for people from 180 other countries. About half of them people of coloured and not so concerned about the subtle racism here as to not to come and then to actually stay.

I understand that your ignorance must be embarrasing, bruce but you might want to give a little weight to what others have said in a thread that you started that was immedeatly flagged by a mod as being against babble policy because of its racist, colonial and xenophobic underpinnings.

Since you have admitted that you know nothing about the history of migration to this land, nor the political context of migration today, nor the basic assumptions that underpin your worn-out ideas on immigration I question the further productivity of this thread.

Thu, 2010-11-11 19:54

#46

bruce_the_vii

Oh, I see. Not only do you speak for yourself but the mods, other posters and the first nation's community as well.

Thu, 2010-11-11 21:40

#47

Kanada2America

Ok. I just had to post because this is really close to my heart and I watched it all unfold in what would normally be seen as a backwater and have also been involved in this.

Bruce? You say restrict immigration and it's in the interest of immigrants to do so? Ok. I'm listening. What would be the results of restricting immigration? Not so much demographically but with the economy and jobs. I think you are looking at it as a mathematical equation obviously?

Maysie, please indulge me on this? Do you see a benefit to mass immigration unless you work in an immigration-related industry? I do agree with Bruce, and only on that point - Canada does have the highest mass immigration rate in the world, per capita. What is being accomplished by putting these professionals to work in the brown collar ghetto?

Fidel? Canada is almost soley populated within 800 km of the US border. So that huge land mass is not really liveable and occupied to start with.

I am working on the immigration experiences and biography of two people who will tell you that they don't stand on any side of this issue other than this: reform the system. Stop doing this. It doesn't matter about race or ethnicity. Just stop the massive driftnet fishing scam for rich immigrants to come to Canada. It is worth about $5B annually and CIC does not want to stop it. Look at Kenney. He of the old Reform crowd. Once he got a look at the books in Ottawa - he said full steam ahead.

In fact the group of people I know, proposed a very logical and solid solution to the issue of foreign credentials and were immediately refuffed. We went to a CIC seminar to try and get funds to create a solution and 95% of the crowd was young white people in their 20's and 30's looking for money so they could "fund" their pet ventures to "help" immigrants. Great.

Anyway. Immigrants will become those "Canadians of convenience" if this goes on long enough.

Kanada2America

Thu, 2010-11-11 22:31

#48

Maysie

Le T have I mentioned how happy I am that you're back?

................

I have been extremely indulgent in allowing this thread to stay open under the premise that it opened with. That's ending.

babble is not the place to express anti-immigrant statements. Except perhaps in the context of Aboriginal history and present, which bruce has admitted to knowing little to nothing about (that was already apparent in your text, btw, bruce).

The idea of blaming immigrants, who are already fairly marginalized, for the racism they experience in Canada, as bruce expressed in post #43, is racist, xenophobic, offensive and oppressive.

And Kanada, or anyone, if you want to start a thread that is critical of the immigration process, without being a mouthpiece for tired racist tropes such as bruce has reiterated, go ahead.

bruce you're on very thin ice here, and your stay on babble won't be for much longer if you keep this up.

Thu, 2010-11-11 22:32

#49

Maysie

Oh, and closing due to lack of adherence to babble's policy.

Topic locked