The memetics and semiotics of the Poppy Part II

E.Tamaran wrote:

I wear a red poppy and eagle feather to commemorate all the FN Warriors who served in WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq and Afghanistan.

There are mixed questions as to what they were fighting for.

Were they fighting to further the cause of equality for all peoples in the U.S.A. and Canada once they got back home?

Or did they join the effort to assist the capitalist oligarchs and maim, murder and oppress equally innocent people in other countries and lands?

Frmrsldr wrote:

World War II was not a "necessary" war. Adolf Hitler and the nazis got into power, were (partly) financed and enabled by Western capitalist oligarchs. Nazism was seen as a bulwark (or Praetorian Guard) against communism by the capitalists.

Yep. I know all that. And I don't say the war was necessary. I only say that at a certain point it was necessary to fight. But I think it's a distraction for us to debate WWII. This thread is about Remembrance Day and poppies and we seem to agree on that. 

RosaL wrote:

@Frmrsldr: I know WWII has been used to justify all these other wars and to convince people to fight in future wars. And I know it was ambiguous in many ways. So I wouldn't call it a good war. But I think maybe it was necessary to fight. I certainly agree that it has been used as you say it has but I don't conclude from that that it wasn't at a certain point 'necessary'. That saddles me with a somewhat subtle position but so be it. My main point, however, is that Remembrance Day and all it's paraphernalia serves the same purpose: to justify and sanctify the wars of the ruling class in order to convince people to kill and die in those wars. 

How could "Lest we forget" possibly have a good meaning after WWI? Unless you're saying it meant: "don't forget how horrible and pointless all this was" at that time? 

Yes, generally in remembrance of the carnage of war

History of the poppy

A writer first made the connection between the poppy and battlefield deaths during the Napoleonic wars of the early 19th century, remarking that fields that were barren before battle exploded with the blood-red flowers after the fighting ended.

Prior to the First World War few poppies grew in Flanders. During the tremendous bombardments of that war the chalk soils became rich in lime from rubble, allowing 'popaver rhoeas' to thrive. When the war ended the lime was quickly absorbed, and the poppy began to disappear again.

Lieut-Col. John McCrae, the Canadian doctor who wrote the poem IN FLANDERS FIELDS, made the same connection 100 years later, during the First World War, and the scarlet poppy quickly became the symbol for soldiers who died in battle.

Three years later an American, Moina Michael, was working in a New York City YMCA canteen when she started wearing a poppy in memory of the millions who died on the battlefield. During a 1920 visit to the United States a French woman, Madame Guerin, learned of the custom. On her return to France she decided to use handmade poppies to raise money for the destitute children in war-torn areas of the country. In November 1921, the first poppies were distributed in Canada.

RosaL wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

World War II was not a "necessary" war. Adolf Hitler and the nazis got into power, were (partly) financed and enabled by Western capitalist oligarchs. Nazism was seen as a bulwark (or Praetorian Guard) against communism by the capitalists.

Yep. I know all that. And I don't say the war was necessary. I only say that at a certain point it was necessary to fight. But I think it's a distraction for us to debate WWII. This thread is about Remembrance Day and poppies and we seem to agree on that. 

Frmrsldr wrote:

It [the post World War I years] was a brief period in time when global peace had its greatest chance.

This is one of the great "What ifs?" in history.

If France, the U.K., the U.S.A., the U.S.S.R. and other countries that had the ability and the opportunity, taken the right actions at the right time (and this certainly was possible), then the Second World War wouldn't have happened and there wouldn't have been any WW II where it was necessary to fight at any time.

And consequently, there wouldn't have been any corruption and hijacking of the true and original meaning of Armistice Day. Perhaps the world would have been a lot more peaceful than it is today.

RosaL wrote:

How could "Lest we forget" possibly have a good meaning after WWI? Unless you're saying it meant: "don't forget how horrible and pointless all this was" at that time? 

I think the reality and the spin are so far apart-- we are told that there was purpose. It is part of our culture that we do not want to accept loss without purpose. What the Poppy was when I was young and fewer people participated was a rememberance of the loss and horror. Then that was easier as there were more people who were conscripted to remind us. Today most of the veterans are now volunteers. These are people who along with their families have a lot at stake to prove there is a purpsoe. The history has been re-emphasized to play up the military tradition and sense of purpose. Harper and company have changed the Canada's military culture. We used to be proud of the fact that this country was a peace-loving coutnry that did not maintain a large standing army but -- so the story goes -- we answered the call in a time of crisis and became a military power. Now we are spreading the diea that this is always a military culture, that we are always military focussed-- the downtown of the capital has been altered to give the greatest place possible to the military as our favoured ideal of a great Canadian. The poppy when I wore it used to mean rememberance today it is a glorification of war and sacrifice that allows none of the pointlessness of war to enter the discussion. My father who fought in the war is no longer here for me to discuss this with so I canot speak for him but I truly wonder how he would feel to see what has happened particularly over the last year and a half or so.

As a way of modernising the use of a poppy to celebrate our current war heroes and the heroic heroes in charge who make their heroism possible, Canadians ought to shoot up with some good Afghani smack on November 11.

@ Al-Q

My neighbour was the main speaker at the ceremony at our kids' school, and as part of his talk he mentioned that there were fields of poppies everywhere where he was in Afghanistan, and showed a picture of a local farmer. He did not mention its connection to the heroin trade, nor the campagn to put those farmers out of business.  He made a point of saying that he was not intending to be pro or anti-war. Seeing as it was a school event, I think that was suitably diplomatic of him, and probably the best he could do.

There were some things about the ceremony that rubbed me the wrong way like mentioning Canadian peacekeepers, even though there are only 70 or so soldiers serving in that capacity now

...and changing the words to John Lennon's Imagine. On the other hand, I am surprised that they sang it at all.

I wish babblers wouldn't reproduce stories that stir up anti-Muslim sentiments, but that's me.

Closing for length.