Get beaten by nazis, lose your kids

VanGoghs Ear wrote:

I support your stand Bacchus but I also understand Refuge's point about kids in the neighbourhood being recruited into the movement by nazis blending in with everyone.

Which is totally offensive and should be reported to the police. And countered with classes, recruiting etc for the anti-racists

Unionist wrote:

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Thanks Unionist!

Im going by the news reports that I used to read about them frequently when they were at their height in the 90s. They were especially active in the UK and US and in Toronto for awhile. They may have scaled down on the pro-violence since then but they were founded on violent confrontation.

I havent heard about them in years but then again I havent seen the neo-nazis as active here as they used.

See what happens when they get rid if Zundel? All the fun stops

If they were telling people about neo-nazis actively recruiting in their community, thats fine. I have seen no evidence that this was the case in devines neighbourhood

Bacchus wrote:

Im going by the news reports that I used to read about them frequently when they were at their height in the 90s. They were especially active in the UK and US and in Toronto for awhile. They may have scaled down on the pro-violence since then but they were founded on violent confrontation.

 

I havent heard about them in years but then again I havent seen the neo-nazis as active here as they used.

See what happens when they get rid if Zundel? All the fun stops

Well either they have changed their views on violent versus non violent confrontation or their website lies and the newspaper articles leave out the violent confrontations they start.  So unless there is proof that they were trying to provoke a violent confrontation all reports indicate they were just trying to inform people that their neighbourhood had the seeds of racism. There is a reason it is called innocent until proven guilty not guilty until proven innocent.

edited to add: neo nazis don't always actively recruit as a form of racism.  Sometimes they just spread propaganda and misinformation so that the environment they exist in will be better / more accepting if actions take place.

From the website here is the violence and the threat to the children.  These neo-nazis are the violent people in this story and they should be arrested and charged.  I can't believe all the people on this board who believe citizens should cower in their homes while neo-nazis recruit adolescents into their racism and all to protect children from the violence perpetrated by the racists.

Quote:

"Willis" (William Mettingen)
If you're 13 and hang out at the skate park you may recognize "Willis" as that creepy older guy who likes to buy cigarettes for underagers and "teach" them how to bare knuckle box. If you were at M21, you'll recognize him as the shirtless wonder who tried to assault a photographer with his skateboard...while 60 cops looked on. Needless to say, Willis got his point across on M21 -- and that point was that he's both violent and dumb. He's been charged with assault with a weapon and released on a $500 no-cash bail. At his hearing on Monday morning, Willis pitched a sob story about how he's not really a Nazi or racist and it's all just been one big mistake. Someone should tell Willis that if you cover yourself with racist tattoos, throw around the "seig heil" salute and assault people at an anti-racist demo while yelling white power slogans, no one is going to believe you when you say you're not a Nazi.

Bacchus wrote:

And Ive had personal experience with them in Toronto as well so I know what they WERE like and have admitted they could have changed by now as could of the neo nazis too of course

Are you talking about the Devines themselves? Did you know them personally? If not you are an asshole.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Bacchus wrote:

And Ive had personal experience with them in Toronto as well so I know what they WERE like and have admitted they could have changed by now as could of the neo nazis too of course

 

Are you talking about the Devines themselves? Did you know them personally? If not you are an asshole.

Them as in the ARA, not the devines personally. But if you didnt know that, then you are an asshole.

But Im sure you did

Hmm well delving into what I can find.

Hmm the wife is delusional in her mayoral bid only because of the promises she makes which the mayor cannot do but otherwise all I find is FD crap about Jason Devine admitting to stalking women on campus at his work

And a bit about the ARA (with Jason Devione) throwing rocks and stuff at neo nazis trying to march.

Sorry I think they both extremist groups with the ARA being a bit more palatable due to their aims. And any of their non-violent actions that are not vigilatism meet with my approval, not that they need it, or me need yours

And why do you have to descend to insults? While only makes it seem like you cannot defend your arguments but wait until your opponent is banned from the thread like Snert? Cant we simply agree to disagree?

In other news in Alberta, apparently mentioning that we have 'white privledge' is offensive and must be removed from a anti-racism government initiative. Which means the devines have an uphill battle there

As is frequently said here, I dont have to do your research, look it up.

As for brenda being delusional, I found that here  When you promise things beyond the scope of the mayor you are trying to be, you are either delusional or just a liar using any means to get elected.  Which means she should have been a Tory instead of a communist

Cueball wrote:

So you got nothing other than an ad hominem slag about his wife being "dellusional".

You "think" the ARA is extremist? What? Ok. You said violent? Where? Anything? Other than random accussations from Paul Fromm and co.? I seem to remember some people throwing eggs at Zundel's house... that equates with home invasion and a savage beating?

Don't be sorry, and don't be calling other people dellusional, when you can't summon a single piece of evidence to support your case, other than to assert that you "think" something is true.

Here is the ARC web site warning about even POSTING any threats against persons:

Quote:

A group of diverse but like-minded individuals, the members of ARC have come together in their common desire to fight hatred, bigotry, intolerance and violence because of the harm these antisocial behaviors cause to our society. In that effort, we will not use or sanction the use of illegal actions (such as violence or intimidation) in pursuit of our desired aims and if we learn of anyone who does use these unethical methods we will report those individuals to the authorities. Instead, we will use the guarantees found in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms that ensure freedom of legal speech and expression.

Mission Statement

 

Um thats a different organization you want the http://aracalgary.com/ which of course has been hacked.

But seeing they have changed thats all to the good and I support that. Did you wish different?

More insults? Do you feel that you can never be banned dude?

And I noticed the OPP on your links who say "those who wont play nice with racists"  So no violence huh? And you dont come up with bullshit, just insults for those you do not like?

Bacchus wrote:

Cueball wrote:

So you got nothing other than an ad hominem slag about his wife being "dellusional".

You "think" the ARA is extremist? What? Ok. You said violent? Where? Anything? Other than random accussations from Paul Fromm and co.? I seem to remember some people throwing eggs at Zundel's house... that equates with home invasion and a savage beating?

Don't be sorry, and don't be calling other people dellusional, when you can't summon a single piece of evidence to support your case, other than to assert that you "think" something is true.

Here is the ARC web site warning about even POSTING any threats against persons:

Quote:

A group of diverse but like-minded individuals, the members of ARC have come together in their common desire to fight hatred, bigotry, intolerance and violence because of the harm these antisocial behaviors cause to our society. In that effort, we will not use or sanction the use of illegal actions (such as violence or intimidation) in pursuit of our desired aims and if we learn of anyone who does use these unethical methods we will report those individuals to the authorities. Instead, we will use the guarantees found in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms that ensure freedom of legal speech and expression.

Mission Statement

 

Um thats a different organization you want the http://aracalgary.com/ which of course has been hacked.

 

But seeing they have changed thats all to the good and I support that. Did you wish different?

 

What change? Above is Devine himself condeming violence on behalf of the ARA. Your just spouting a bunch of right wing talking points and slander. If I want to see someone defending the Aryan Guard by saying the Devine advocates violence I can just link over to Stormfront.

Devine is ARA Calgary and that is his statement condeming violence on behalf of ARA -- Calgary, which he runs.

Again:

Quote:

From Calgary Sun

Anti-Racist Action Calgary is condemning the violent actions of protesters demonstrating on their side of the line who clashed with the Aryan Guard at a weekend rally.

Three protesters were arrested Saturday when the anti-racist group confronted members of the Aryan Guard who were marching to celebrate White Pride Day.

The rally of several hundred people became violent when demonstrators began tossing water bottles, cans of food and signs at each other.

The chaotic clash injured two people, including Sun columnist Rick Bell.

But Jason Devine, spokesman for ARA, said the group does not condone violent protesting.

"We have said from the beginning it was supposed to be confrontational but not violent," he said.

"We have never called on people to physically assault the Aryan Guard -- our job was to ostracize them, getting the message out there are Nazis in our community.

"The signs are there to get the message out not there to bust people's heads open."

Copy of original Here

Everything you have said is total misinformation and Stormfront crap used to justify and enable Nazi violence in the mainstream.

And how that equates to neo-nazi's is somehow applicable?  Power structures my friend, there's a HUGE difference, even if you can't see it right now.  Really, you sound like an apologist for these fuckheads.  And yeah, I think there's a huge difference in the ARA standing up to these fuckheads and neo-nazi's use of violence.  C'mon dude, think about it.  Oppressed people need to exercise their rights somehow in the face of bigots.  The abolition of slavery didn't come peacefully. 

RevolutionPlease wrote:

And how that equates to neo-nazi's is somehow applicable?  Power structures my friend, there's a HUGE difference, even if you can't see it right now.  Really, you sound like an apologist for these fuckheads.  And yeah, I think there's a huge difference in the ARA standing up to these fuckheads and neo-nazi's use of violence.  C'mon dude, think about it.  Oppressed people need to exercise their rights somehow in the face of bigots.  The abolition of slavery didn't come peacefully. 

Here it did. And in Europe. Its just in the US of A that they had to violently change the minds of slaveholders. But thank you for sounding nice about it RP. And I dont want to sound like an apologist for those scum. I want their philosophy to die a death and seem like as real a notion as the idea that noxious vapours caused illness.

I jusy dont think a violent reaction helps tho I again state that the devines had not been violent and indeed as cue's links point out, they rule out a violent reaction.

So, both sides engaged in violence there.  We don't know how it started.  Have the ARA been accused of other violence?  Home invasions?

Are you going to retract your statement that you abhor both for their use of violence as equally culpable?

Uhhh... yeah. And Devine from the ARA quite clearly condemned that. So what is your point? In the mean time you have attacked Devine for being part of an extremist organization. A perpetrator and an organizer of violence, with a dellusional wife. Clearly stating that the violence perpetrated upon Devine and his family are the result of his own advocacy of violence?

What was the point of disseminating a bunch of half-truths, rumours, and slander against these people?

Bacchus: Can we then assume that if some Zionist yob took offence to your "Israel delenda est", broke into your house, and beat you - you would be somehow culpable?  Are you not advocating violence  - "Israel shall be destroyed"  - just as the IDF and Zionist state are doing? 

You seem to have lost your way.  I'm not sure how much you see of neo-nazis, but I get to see them all the time in my line of work, and the only way to deal with them is to get right in their faces.  Playing nice and polite doesn't work.  They are constantly propagandizing; they are totally committed; and they are taking the long-term view.  If you treat their activities as a "matter of conscience", then what  will you then have to say when they and the people they've recruited then put the boots to someone?  Because by not confronting them, you will be culpable for allowing them to further their program of violent racism. Your previous comments about people not belonging in a progressive thread are mind-blowing in this context: I can accept ameliorism: I can accept do-goodism; but it's hard to understand how "hide-under-the-bedism" can be considered  a progressive position.  If you don't have a taste for confronting the very real evil of neo nazism, then please explain what the Devines should have done as people of good conscience should have done - contact the famously racist Calgary police?

You have put a lot of energy into upbraiding the Devines and maybe you should think about the reasons you've taken such a hard position against people who have clearly been victimized by not only the neo-nazis - but the Calgary Police and Children's Services as well.  And please be aware that "out here" there's a hoary old joke that talks about having the Calgary police put the boots to you as a FN rite of passage. Your statement about the moral equivalency of the Devines and the neo-nazis was absolutely breath-taking; it's time to reconsider your position from the ground up.

sand_man wrote:

Bacchus: Can we then assume that if some Zionist yob took offence to your "Israel delenda est", broke into your house, and beat you - you would be somehow culpable?  Are you not advocating violence  - "Israel shall be destroyed"  - just as the IDF and Zionist state are doing? 

You seem to have lost your way.  I'm not sure how much you see of neo-nazis, but I get to see them all the time in my line of work, and the only way to deal with them is to get right in their faces.  Playing nice and polite doesn't work.  They are constantly propagandizing; they are totally committed; and they are taking the long-term view.  If you treat their activities as a "matter of conscience", then what  will you then have to say when they and the people they've recruited then put the boots to someone?  Because by not confronting them, you will be culpable for allowing them to further their program of violent racism. Your previous comments about people not belonging in a progressive thread are mind-blowing in this context: I can accept ameliorism: I can accept do-goodism; but it's hard to understand how "hide-under-the-bedism" can be considered  a progressive position.  If you don't have a taste for confronting the very real evil of neo nazism, then please explain what the Devines should have done as people of good conscience should have done - contact the famously racist Calgary police?

You have put a lot of energy into upbraiding the Devines and maybe you should think about the reasons you've taken such a hard position against people who have clearly been victimized by not only the neo-nazis - but the Calgary Police and Children's Services as well.  And please be aware that "out here" there's a hoary old joke that talks about having the Calgary police put the boots to you as a FN rite of passage. Your statement about the moral equivalency of the Devines and the neo-nazis was absolutely breath-taking; it's time to reconsider your position from the ground up.

 

Its actually should be destroyed not shall be destroyed. And right in their faces to me means demonstrating, counter marching etc, NOT rocks and bricks to the head or emulating them in any degree. The racist calgary police should be the main enemy to educate and fix, then the other would be solved the way it should be.

.

And that is precisely what Devine was doing, said he was going to do, and asserted should be done when others took matters into their own hands. Now, for some reason you keep adding grist to this mill, even though it is completely clear and evident that the spokesperson ARA Calgary (Jason Devine) supports exactly what you are talking about and IS THE VICTIM here, although reading your constant dissertations and criticism of things that Devine has not supported, never said he supported, and condemned when it was appropriate to do so, one would never know it.

And apparently you feel you must persist in posting and insulting me in this thread? Do you feel its the only unmoderated thread so personal insults are ok?

And I still say, violently confronting racists, as the ARA DID do in a demo in 2009 is wrong and lowers them to the level of their foes.

Defending yourself when attacked or seeking to have such attacks prosecuted by the law (such as you are able to in Calgary apparently) is perfectly fine. eing them renounce violence as a aim and theme is great! Again nice to see they changed.