Anti-Semitism and free speech

Ripple wrote:

A couple of people have commented on this article at rabble, and it's related to several threads we've had, so I thought I'd bring it to babble for discussion.

I was surprised to learn that bds activists in France are facing trial for hate speech.  I don't see this happening in the immediate future in Canada, but this is a step in that direction.

That is despicable. Can you get a link to this story on the hate speech trial?

Great article at rabble it is...and the 'progressive' blogger of recent controversy finds himself on the same side as Kenney and Cotler, imagine that......egg all over the place.

"Right now in France people are being brought to court and charged with 'hate' for sticking a boycott label on an Israeli product. Do we want that here?"

Only the 'sticking a boycott label on an Israeli product' part:

CJPME Launches 'We're Not Buying It!' - Boycott Israel Centre.

http://www.cjpme.org/

Check it Out! Tell all your friends!

I think it's abominable to consider legal action against anyone for boycotting products, or suggesting others do so.  No product has a right to my money.

But "relabeling" products on store shelves?  Ya, I can't really see any kind of legal precedent to allow me to put stickers on something that's not mine and that I'm not purchasing.  I'm not shocked (nor do I disapprove) if the law steps in to say that's not OK. 

I guess hate speech laws swing both ways. The best approach is to not constrain speech at all. Let anyone say whatever he or she wants. Then we will get to know who are friends are, and who our enemies are. Otherwise the language goes underground, or else people are subject to the random whims of bureaucrats (which is the definition of tyranny). Of course we have a duty to call-out and condemn those that preach death or genocide. The truth will expose the darkness.
In the west, "hate" speech is simply another term for "politically incorrect". But the laws are applied like the future of society depended upon the persecution of harmless citizens. It is pure corruption.
In my view, speech that is full of "hate" against one group or another has resulted in tragedy only when employed or supported by governments (e.g., Nazi Germany, Rwanda, the list goes on).

Oh FFS, putting a sticker on something should get you arrested? Snert, what law and order episode do you live in? and since when should the arrest of people for putting stickers on things be a remotely progressive stance?

Interesting-- I had heard the term "New anti-Semitic" from some Jewish friends years ago. They meant it to mean bigotry against the other Semitic peoples such as Palestinians-- Arabs. They were using it to refer in part to the behavior of Israel in some contexts. I do believe they would be upset at this new particular definition used to go the other way. I've lost touch so I can't ask them now but I wonder what they think of this term now.

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Interesting-- I had heard the term "New anti-Semitic" from some Jewish friends years ago. They meant it to mean bigotry against the other Semitic peoples such as Palestinians-- Arabs.

I agree with this approach - bigotry against Arabs in general is the new antisemitism.  It's as accepted now as commonplace racism against Jews or other groups used to be back in the early 20th century.

When Bernie Farber used to haunt these threads, he'd claim criticism of Israel was the new antisemitism.

For the record-- the charges would likely be mischief or vandalism-- but you would ahve to do a lot of stickering to be able to cause enough damage to want them.

That said you could certainly put up posters outside stores on lamp-posts etc listing products to boycott... We often have boycott lists here in our office.

The day it becomes illegal in this country to say that Arik Sharon is a Nazi, is the day we can rightly call Jason Kenny a Nazi.

Freedom is grand. We are free as long as we do as we're told.

I stand to be corrected here.

My personal belief is there are too many lies being told by government officials to the Canadian public.Afghanistan for one is a losing battle that's goin to last forever because we are there for the wrong reason. We are made to believe we are there to help democratize the country when we really are there to protect the zionists the christian evengelicals and the Jews. (The people who believe Jesus Christ will return on Mount Zion in person) I which I thing that will never happen and God didn't give them anything. There like our native people here in Canada, they want it all for themselves in the meantime mooching at the public purse. These chameleons change into all kinds of things no? Our own Stephen Harper Prime Minister of Canada don't give a piece of coon shit about the Afghan people, he's there to appease the Americans who want to control the world by proxy with the Zionists so the Muslims or Jew haters) won't wipe them of the map. No? Look I need to be taken to task on this subject and know if i'm a racist or not cause that's what I feel, if you think i'm wrong by all means tell me to my face and if your opinion is valuable I may change my mind about all this. In the old days the kings were ahead of the army and were likely die in battle. To-day they are far behind the lines hiding like cowards giving orders that maime and kill, while other people (soldiers) do their dirty work No? Now About our troops in Afghanistan we are there for something other than democracy and if you go and occupy another country be prepared to die cause if you live by the gun your probably going to die by it. I say get out of there boys before it's too late That's all for now.

Well heck, "Babblebox", I counted three instances of in your face, nasty racism in your cute little post, so I guess you do "stand to be corrected". And I think you know it.  Ain't it grand... Kenney and co are trying to make sure that anti-Semitism of the authentic kind is dangerously dumbed down for political gain and here we have someone conveniently spouting racist conspiracy theories on this board.

wondering if anyone knows of Jewish groups in Canada that are fighting back against this travesty. I would like to help out.

oldgoat wrote:

Well Babblebox, I don't know, or really care if you're racist, but your post sure as hell is.  Consider yourself corrected, and banned.

Thanks, oldgoat.

I flagged this post as racist and antisemitic yesterday, hours after it was posted, yet it is only today after Green Grouch's accurate remarks that it seemed to be noticed.
Is there a way of bringing such egregious crap to the attention of currently online mods any quicker?
Incidentally, the same poster apparently still has another account.

Thomas Mulcair's remarks at the conference were a shameful capitulation to the pro-Zionist hysteria that prevailed:

Kady O'Malley, in her liveblog from the conference on November 9, wrote:

Switching to English after explaining that his remarks were originally prepared in French, but the simultaneous translation service doesn't appear to extend to this room, so he'll carry on in English, he [Mulcair] gives a shoutout to Irwin Cotler -- who was, it seems, his law professor at McGill, and notes that John Humphrey was *also* an alumnus, which is why it is particularly interesting that McGill takes part in AAW [Anti-Apartheid Week].

[12:33 p.m.] Mulcair gives a few examples of antisemitism in and around his riding of Outremont, and stresses that, when it comes to AAW, he -- Mulcair -- doesn't believe in the argument that the debate shouldn't take place: he wants to confront it head on, and segues to an anecdote about a participant in a pro-flotilla event who confessed to him -- Mulcair -- that he was shocked when another member of the group suggested protesting outside a local business owned by someone in the Jewish community. It was, Mulcair notes, an example of the "Any Jew Will Do" attitude; he recalls similar hostility against an NDP candidate who wore a head scarf. Which is why, he says, it's important to remember than intolerance can flow through -- or against -- any race, ethnic or religious group or culture. [b]He also doesn't think much of the excuse that someone is "anti-Zionist", not antisemitic, and vows, once again, to face that debate head on[/b], at McGill and everywhere else.

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Terry Greenberg wrote:

Did you hear Prime Minister Stephen Harper's inane remarks at the Ottawa Conference where he equated all "anti-Israel rhetoric" with anti-Semitism? Were you embarrassed and ashamed that a Canadian leader would say that?

Did you hear him say that anti-Semitism is a major and growing problem in Canada? Do you believe it?

Do you think it was insulting to Canadians for him to say that if it is not true?

Are you going to let them insult you?

Are you going to let the signatories of the Ottawa Protocol define you as an anti-Semite?

Are you going to let them silence "anti-Semites" like you in the media, on the Internet, and on university campuses?

Are you going to let them tell you what you can or cannot say (or think) about the Middle East?

If not, what are you going to do about it?

– [url=http://rabble.ca/news/2010/11/musings-and-bemusings-ottawa-protocol]rabb...

[url=http://rabble.ca/columnists/2010/12/postscript-new-mccarthyism]Murray Dobbin[/url] writes at rabble.ca:

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Attending this new-McCarthyism event were: David Johnston, the new governor-general, Peter Milliken, the speaker of the House of Commons, the speaker of the Senate, Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff, and last but not least Thomas Mulcair, the most aggressive pro-Israeli MP in the NDP caucus. Given that this was a private affair (even though they deliberately mislead people with their name -- the Canadian "Parliamentary" Coalition), I suppose it would have been difficult for Jack Layton to stop him.

The problem is that Jack Layton actually sent Mulcair to the event to represent the NDP, a fact confirmed to me by Layton, but never revealed to the NDP caucus. ...

What possessed Layton to send Mulcair to this offensive gathering is anyone's guess but given that he went begging forgiveness to the Israeli ambassador for remarks made by MP Libby Davies, it should not come as a surprise. Many thought -- hoped -- that it was a mere panic reaction that he regretted. But this is far worse than just having a couple of NDPers in the CPCCA. This is an implicit endorsement of the goals of that organization, including the definition of the new anti-semitism provided by Stephen Harper: "Harnessing disparate anti-American, anti-semitic and anti-western ideologies, it targets the Jewish people by targeting the Jewish homeland."

Grrrr.

What's the Green Party position on this?

Unionist wrote:

If what Dobbin says about Layton is factual, it's very disturbing.

Yup.

Dodger718 wrote:

Wow, so in the middle of a recession, an MNA actually encourages people NOT to shop at an independent, family-owned business in his riding...

Yeah, what an enemy of families he is! I hear he also eats children and kittens.

By the way, Dodgy, you think we're in the "middle of a recession"? Why not audit Economics 101?

Or you just dislike Amir Khadir because he has the courage to stand up and participate publicly in the movement to boycott Israel?

Yeah, maybe that's it...

Dodger718 wrote:

I don't live in Montreal so know very little about him.

I do live in Montréal, and I told you he hates families and eats children and kittens. Pay attention.

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I think encouraging people NOT to shop at a store in his riding in an economic climate which may or may not technically be a "recession" but which I have no doubt many small businesses are finding difficult is pretty terrible.

The message is that if you want to survive in this economic climate, don't support the warmongering apartheid state of Israel. Is there something about "boycotts" you have difficulty with? Once Isreal conforms to international standards of legality and humanity, I myself will buy a pair of their second-rate shoes!

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All because the store owner has made a completely apolitical decision to carry a brand of shoes that are made by an Israeli company...

The store owner is a friend of yours?

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alongside other options which were possibly made by child labour under terrible conditions in oppressive regimes but THAT obviously gets a free pass...

What products, regimes, and Canadian retail outlets are you thinking of? Do you want to organize a boycott of child labour users? I'd support that.

You won't be giving a free pass to the Israeli aggressors and murderers, though, will you?

Dodger718 wrote:

I don't believe in holding companies responsible for the policies of their countries's governments, which they may or not support.

You would have been a fine ally when we were boycotting South Africa.

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I'd be pretty taken aback if someone were to refuse to use my services because he dislikes Harper or Ford's policies, which I have nothing to do with.

What if Afghans and their supporters called for a boycott of Canadian products until Canada withdrew from Afghanistan? Would you be "taken aback" at that?

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My in-laws live in Israel. Do they not have a right to earn a living or export products to Montreal because of the country in which they live?

I have blood relatives in Israel. They can do whatever they please. But if they are silent or complicit in their country's actions, they should not be "taken aback" if there's an economic price to pay. Indeed, maybe when their standard of living starts to drop, they'll start wondering whether maybe they shouldn't be demanding their government pull out of the Occupied Territories and repeal its Judeo-centric laws and other atrocities that they live under.

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But if you want to talk about countries as a whole, just looking at the stuff on my desk right now, my computer, iPod, headphones and coffee mug are all made in China. My eyeglasses are made in Italy, my sunglasses in the United States, my sketchbook in France and my coat in Bangladesh. There can be legitimate criticisms of each of these countries and their respective governments. Let me know know when Amir Khadir will be protesting the businesses that sell those products.

Let me know when the oppressed peoples of those countries, via hundreds of civil organizations, academic, trade union, etc., launch an international appeal for boycott, divestment, and sanctions against their oppressors, in a context of violation of international law and defiance of the community of nations. Then Amir Khadir, and I by his side, will be marching in the front ranks of those protests. In the meantime, we'll just have to save our outrage for the worst pariah state in the world - Israel.

Dodger718 wrote:

My wife and I have a baby on the way ...

That would be your wife, Dodgy - and that's not all you don't understand about participating on a board where people cherish the truth, justice, and peace.

Stargazer, your sense of smell is impeccable as always.

Amir Khadir - the most popular politician in Québec - is weathering well in the face of obscene Zionist and neocon slanders, and sticking to his guns as always.

For the information of those who spew Israel lobby talking points, [url=http://www.assnat.qc.ca/fr/travaux-parlementaires/assemblee-nationale/39... was Amir Khadir earlier this year[/url] leading the National Assembly in condemning the latest example of political arrests, tortures, and executions in his birth country of Iran:

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M. Khadir: M. le Président, je demande le consentement de la Chambre pour présenter, conjointement avec la ministre de la Culture, des Communications et de la Condition féminine, la députée de Rosemont, la députée de Lotbinière, le député de La Peltrie et le député des Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, la motion suivante:

«Que l'Assemblée nationale condamne l'arrestation et la détention arbitraire depuis janvier dernier du réalisateur iranien Jafar Panahi, président du jury du Festival des films du monde de Montréal en 2009, ainsi que la recrudescence très inquiétante de la répression, de la torture et des exécutions politiques en Iran, comme en fait foi l'exécution sommaire de cinq opposants dimanche matin -- dimanche dernier -- en Iran, dont 4 Kurdes et une femme qui avaient pour accusation "l'inimitié à l'égard de Dieu".»

And, in a dodgy coincidence, [url=http://communiques.gouv.qc.ca/gouvqc/communiques/GPQF/Decembre2010/21/c7... press release today by Amir Khadir's party[/url] condemning the repression of the theocratic regime and calling for broad opposition among Quebeckers.

I am proud, as a Jew, to stand with those like Khadir, who never fear to attack what is offensive to humanity - especially when it is on the hands of "their own" community or "homeland".