*** DISCUSSION ON BABBLE PROPOSAL ***

I still think that "banning" someone from a THREAD after two cockups would make like easier for Mods AND posters.

Unionist wrote:

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

This proposal might be taken more seriously if it wasn't started by one of the masters of personal attacks masquraded as 'aw gee shucks I was just pointing to errors in thought" and then goes crying to the mods the moment someone returns in kind.

The proposal was started by Michelle.

But I find it interesting that you judge proposals by who proposes them rather than by what they say. That's what also how unquestioning partisans of political parties or sports teams or nationalities or religions view the world. Not saying you do, of course. Just noticing a similarity.

 

Nice try.  But reading this thread and your contribution is a bit like listening to Don Cherry complaining about someone's clothes being too loud

Life, The Universe.....did you know that if someone tries to pm you, you don't exist?  Babble breaks your name after the commas, and apparently we don't have a babbler named life, or one named the universe....

The idea of some kind of limits on language is a good one, I think - people who try to intimidate through aggressive language just drive people away, not necessarily from fear, but through simply not being willing to lower themselves to that kind of level. But PC 'let's all play nice, now children, or mommy will spank!' notions should be kept at long arm's length from any such rules - a little barbed sarcasm ("You seem to be reading too quickly..' or something) shouldn't get mods all in a huff, while things like 'You fucking moron!' and etc should be curbed very quickly. IMO. Sure there's going to be fuzzy stuff, but if we could at least stop the worst of the aggressive intimidation language, that would be a good start.

Alt idea - put a top level division into the threads - maybe a DIS preface for people doing an opening post who actually want to talk about ideas, and an SF preface for people who just want a street fight of some kind, where the only rule is whoever is left standing at the end of the day, where ideas are laughed at as loser talk and s/he with the cleverest putdown insult rules baby!! Those of us who find such things an adolescent waste of time could avoid them - and those who prefer this style of 'talk' could keep away from the DIS threads, or keep a lid on their language if they want to participate. Or quickly get the boot from a mod. (nothing to stop someone from starting a parallel thread on any topic, but with 'their' preferred debating style..)

I don't subscribe to the notion that the left needs to soft pedal its language or its actions.  The mainstream left in Canada has been doing just that for years, only to arrive at a standstill where they are not even left alone in that condition, but bullied and strong armed like skinny whimps at a muscle beach.  Intensity of thought and a willingness to deploy whatever that may materialize from the process shouldn't be frowned upon and condemned, but seen as a useful part of the overall momentum towards progressive change.  If a few crossed words from fellow leftists is all it takes to sound the retreat, there's not a snowball's chance against the real threats, which pretty much sums up where the left is now.

Just finished listening to CBC's "The Current" (Radio 1, Toronto).  Got me all worked up, as you'll see from my posing in CBC Nerds.

Question....is there anything in the new formula for democratizing this site...so that whole categories of thought are not immediately categorized? Dismissed? And of course, the pattern of marginalization is happening all over Canada.

 

 

"CBC Radio 1 Toronto "the Current" panel is discussing the death of middle class Toronto, the disappearance of a "middle", the growing impoverishment of the burbs. Sociologists. Political scientists, authors.

All explaining why Ford is in the catbird's seat. Leaving us open to further "opportunistic, facile populism."  People have "lost hope" that following generations will be better off.  The sociologists don't get to the reality of the economic change, of course...nothing like Reich and the new capitalism...particularly the investment capital variety. (Sounds a bit like babble, in that regard..  Heck, someone even said that if a country adds 1 per cent to its population each year through immigration, it has to also be more concerned with education and health etc.

But, of course, one must not touch the category immigration.  Gets you suspended , if not banned.

For anyone interested in Canadian political reality. Hear how its about more than the political leaders, U.S. or Canadian."

 

In Toronto's case, it's about a building marginalized class...now at 50 per cent and voting for populist, conservative demagogs...The incomers are here for a better life.  Can we provide it?

That (without further destruction of this thread) is what it would be about.  How to provide a better life for a working/middle class that is disapearing into impoverishment.

But carry on with your  own populist ""it's tough to find and audience here" stage direction, jack.

Ripple wrote:

.....

Quote:

The idea of some kind of limits on language is a good one, I think - people who try to intimidate through aggressive language just drive people away, not necessarily from fear, but through simply not being willing to lower themselves to that kind of level.

siamdave, "aggressive" language isn't the only way to intimidate.

- agreed - you have a point?

siamdave wrote:

The idea of some kind of limits on language is a good one, I think - people who try to intimidate through aggressive language just drive people away, not necessarily from fear, but through simply not being willing to lower themselves to that kind of level. But PC 'let's all play nice, now children, or mommy will spank!' notions should be kept at long arm's length from any such rules - a little barbed sarcasm ("You seem to be reading too quickly..' or something) shouldn't get mods all in a huff, while things like 'You fucking moron!' and etc should be curbed very quickly. IMO. Sure there's going to be fuzzy stuff, but if we could at least stop the worst of the aggressive intimidation language, that would be a good start.

Alt idea - put a top level division into the threads - maybe a DIS preface for people doing an opening post who actually want to talk about ideas, and an SF preface for people who just want a street fight of some kind, where the only rule is whoever is left standing at the end of the day, where ideas are laughed at as loser talk and s/he with the cleverest putdown insult rules baby!! Those of us who find such things an adolescent waste of time could avoid them - and those who prefer this style of 'talk' could keep away from the DIS threads, or keep a lid on their language if they want to participate. Or quickly get the boot from a mod. (nothing to stop someone from starting a parallel thread on any topic, but with 'their' preferred debating style..)

 

This is unnecessary and divisive. Who decides what is "aggressive"? You? because you certainly do that. You also have no problems with personal attacks and the "beneath your level" stance you have is elitist and stinks.

You can't deal with the justified anger, then stay out of the thread (you being the proverbial you).

There are reasons there are barely any FN posters on this board. Because some people get all offended at words and completely and willingly skip the entire message. Not just skip it, but decide that it isn't a message they approve of and damn it, it you are angry no call to act aggressive and piss off the law and order types or the hypersensitive me me me types. These people assume they know best, and then they try to re-frame, control or ensure the anger/message is co-opted by their own dominate one. That's what happens, and that is exactly what you are calling for more of. In the end the truth is uncomfortable, and comes in a big ass package of swear words and hurt. No one has the right to jump all over that and then decide not only is it bad bad bad, it offends the white people and is oh so beneath you.. This board has to find a safe place for people to spew.

 

Think of it this way - a feminist woman poster starts a thread about rape, where she freaks out and says these men who rape are scum. Then that entire thread gets hijacked by men who are outraged, outraged I tell you, that men should be equated with scum. These people want to control the message and thereby they control the person, the emotions and any hope of relief for the wounded party. Hint white dudes: this is NOT always about you and your need to protect cops, whoever from "aggressive" out pourings of emotion.

 

 

Exactly.

 

Oh you swore! You used a bad word to describe a powerful group of people! You must be put in your place immediately. Your anger makes me uncomfortable, so I'll hijack your rage and put a pretty white coat of paint on it. Then I'll call you stupid and crass when you can't understand why I'm telling you to shut up and god damn you if you can't control that rage, because the big picture is your rage doesn't matter, but my voice telling you to calm the fuck down - well that does matter. 

 

Stargazer wrote:

You can't deal with the justified anger, then stay out of the thread (you being the proverbial you).

...

- or - if you can't manage to control your fucking temper for five minutes, and have to start screaming at people who dare to have opinions or say things you don't like - YOU keep the fuck out of threads where others are trying to talk ....

- the message to babbler mods being - if you want to encourage intelliegent talk here, you have a choice to make - somehow control those who want to try to dominate and exclude any opinion they don't like through the use of aggressive, LCD street0fighting lanaguage - or lose the rest of us

Pulla (Finnish Bread)

 

1 pkg. yeast

1/2 c. warm water

2 c. milk

1 c. sugar

1 tsp. salt

7-8 cardamom pods, seeded and crushed (about 1 tsp.)

4 eggs, beaten

8-9 c. sifted flour

1/2 c. melted butter

 

Glaze

1 egg, beaten

1/2 c. sliced almonds

1/2 c. sugar

 

Dissolve yeast in warm water with 1 tsp. sugar.  Stir in milk, sugar, salt, cardamom, eggs and enough flour to make a batter (about 2 c.). Beat until smooth and elastic (don't worry about small lumps!).  Add about 3 c. flour and beat. 

Add the melted butter and stir in well.  Beat again untill the dough looks glossy.  Stir until stiff dough forms.

Turn out onto a lightly floured board and cover with an inverted mixing bowl.  Let dough rest 15 minutes.  Knead until smooth.

Place in a lightly greased mixing bowl, turn the dough to grease the top, cover lightly and let rise in a warm place until almost doubled in bulk (about 1 hour).

Punch down and let rise again until almost doubled (30 minutes).

Turn out onto floured board and divide into 3 parts.  Divide these parts into three parts.  Roll into strips about 16 inches. Braid the 3 strips in a straight loaf.  Put on lightly greased baking sheet. Let rise for 20 minutes.  Glaze with egg and sugar and almonds.  Bake for 25 minutes at 400.

 

Delicious with coffee, and there's therapy in the making!

Here's White America for you:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZIzD0ZfTFg

 

And pay attention to Eminem's lyrics here vis-a-vis Mr. Bush:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw6WY6FvdDA

 

And the real video for better effect:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox0Q4YIdnGI&feature=fvw

 

 

You think we're going to reach more people through civil discourse? I don't. You sure have a strange sense of more "inclusive" means, siamdave, especially when what you're saying implies the opposite of "inclusive".

 

The counter-culture will remain, ignore it at your peril.

 

 

RevolutionPlease wrote:

siamdave, I think you misconstrue use of language with fighting.  If you're somehow conflating using perjoratives for opposing the oppressors you're barking up the wrong tree.

And yeah, the white man isn't afraid of any street fight eh?  They sure seem to be when the government speaks. 

- you seem to misconstrue fighting the real enemy with abusing your potential friends. As for the white man and street fights - geezus bud, who's running the fucking world? White guys who've won ALL the street fights. Wake up.

siamdave wrote:

RevolutionPlease wrote:

siamdave, I think you misconstrue use of language with fighting.  If you're somehow conflating using perjoratives for opposing the oppressors you're barking up the wrong tree.

And yeah, the white man isn't afraid of any street fight eh?  They sure seem to be when the government speaks. 

- you seem to misconstrue fighting the real enemy with abusing your potential friends. As for the white man and street fights - geezus bud, who's running the fucking world? White guys who've won ALL the street fights. Wake up.

 

Pot, kettle.  We need to find some hard ground here friend.  The lament of the left.  Here we are fighting with each other.  I'll try to dial it back.  Your speaking to some of us like our dissertation has no place.  I'm just trying to respond.  Have you been the victim of police violence?  Racism, sexism, etc?  I've been on the police violence end and witness to much else. 

 

Are you my potential friend?   Yes, the white man has won the street fights.  But it wasn't the white man, it was THE MAN.  Yes, we need to hear each other.  Yes, it's great there's so many intelligent babbler's getting the word out there.  I appreciate it all, I really do.  But there's something lacking.  And it's lacking because we can't get past the notion of ourselves.  We can't look at the big picture of the good.  Like, I've said, I have much time for your thesis siamdave.  More people should.  We need to "WORK" common ground to fertilize it.

Hi Stargazer.

I had to create this new account because once they ban you you can't email to say farewell from your old account. We don't have much time...

I guess this is really goodbye. I know at the beginning of my time on Rabble you and I had some moments, but I have come to greatly respect you. Keep up the good fight. If you want you and I can meet up on bebo.com. I have a pretty good profile there.

For everyone one who expressed support for my attempts to get a FN voice in a mainly white environment, thanks. Maybe I'll see you as well on bebo.

For the record, the mods do a great job, but are sometimes forced to follow orders they don't like.

C Ya!

Eric Damaran AKA e.tamaran

Hit me up ET (PM me!!!)

You're just so sweet when your inherent white dominance, and manliness is not respected. Really.

You know, I'm starting to come around to May's suggestion that the objection thread I started was indeed a stupid idea.

This is what happens: Some portion of the population (define it how you will, by class or race or nationality or gender or orientation or whatever) is excluded from something. At one time, that part of the population would go to great lengths to get what they'd been excluded from. So, for example, there used to be publishers of low-cost books and working people would put in a full day's work and then sit up at night reading. People who never got an education learned what they weren't supposed to learn: they learned to debate and argue and reason. 

Now, that kind of thing doesn't happen very much. If something has been kept from you, you pour contempt on it! I will certainly grant that there's much in bourgeois culture to despise. But there are plenty of good things we've been excluded from. It's as if we weren't allowed to eat anything but McDonald's (heh) and our response was to glorify fries and burgers, rather than steal some recipe books, requisition some food, and learn to cook something that's good for body and soul. That kind of thing - taking what's valuable and what you're not supposed to have - is a revolutionary act. Despising what we're not allowed to have and glorying in the garbage they feed us is capitulation dressed up in revolutionary garb.

Of course, I'm not talking primarily about food here. I'm talking about reason and debate. It's true that the ability to reason and debate is largely the purview of the elite. (And guess whose interests that serves?) So let's learn to reason! 

p.s. I'm not saying, "Don't be angry".

RevolutionPlease wrote:

Pot, kettle.  We need to find some hard ground here friend.

- believe it or not, that is what I am looking for. But 'hard ground' means, to me, equals talking things out civilly and intelligently with a view to coming to some mutually acceptable course of action against a common enemy - dancing around screaming at one another in preparation for battle amongst ourselves is just stupid, and does not qualify. To me. That's another game - one I am not interested in. (It is, however, a mistake to assume I am afraid of this game. Note the comment in last post about who is running the world at this time ... It's just stupid for potential allies to be doing childish dominance games amongst themselves ... our enemy loves it though ... )

Quote:

  The lament of the left.  Here we are fighting with each other.

- we need to at least be aware that *our* enemy is very powerful, and very smart, and very practiced in all arts of war, which certainly includes infiltrating the enemy camp and sewing dissension - that we are continually fighting amongst ourselves may not be entirely coincidental - the young bloods yipping incessantly here are probably not enemy agents directly - just stupid enough to be witlessly manipulated in their service ....

Quote:

  I'll try to dial it back.  Your speaking to some of us like our dissertation has no place.  I'm just trying to respond.  Have you been the victim of police violence?  Racism, sexism, etc?  I've been on the police violence end and witness to much else.

- I shall accept the peace pipe (and don't consider that, please, patronising, it's just reaching out, trying to make some common ground - there is a great deal about what (little) I know of native American cultures that I admire and would see as part of "my" society, insofar as I had a voice in shaping that society)
- I am not aware of ever speaking as if 'your dissertation' had no place - I think I am as open to your situation as anyone, and your dissertation. For example, I have not tried to deny any 'right' some among you have to call cops SCUM PIGS - I have simply said I do not consider that a useful way forward - this is not denying anything, simply disagreeing with how we prioritize things. To mischaracterize that as 'denying your dissertation' is not honest. Any other examples you might have of my attempting to marginalize or otherwise deny your dissertation, well, tell me. We can talk.

- you obviously know nothing of my history, and given earlier responses to my opening up even a little bit by others will, I am sure you understand, make me disinclined to say much right now - but briefly, I was one of the original 'hippies' in 1964 or so, in small town Ontario, and at the very tender age (for a white kid of previous middle-class small privilege) suddenly found myself, at the age of 14, completely ostracized from almost all of my society - offers to beat the shit out of me, or questions about 'are you a girl' snicker snicker, and etc were my life for a lot of years. As were confrontations with the cops - I also liked my beer, and was very much a cop target for a lot of years - believe me, longhairs were just another indian to them back then. I am sure the average life of an FN person was (and is) much more difficult - but I was certainly not one of the oppressors. I did not give in to the demands to become a robot of some kind, and have been exploring things outside that box ever since.

And that's probably enough for now - those here who have decided I am 'the enemy' will just mock anything I say anyway. But for you, RP. In return for your reaching out, for your dialing back - I offer something in return. The journey is long, give and take, see where it goes.

Quote:

 Are you my potential friend?   Yes, the white man has won the street fights.  But it wasn't the white man, it was THE MAN.

- and 'The Man' oppresses lower class white folk just as much as anyone else - we were the original oppressees, back in the Dickensian mills and 19th century American robber-baron mill towns, and still are, to a very large extent - there is a great deal more in common between thou and I than between me and our common oppressors as 'whities' - if more of you could just understand this ....

Quote:

  Yes, we need to hear each other.  Yes, it's great there's so many intelligent babbler's getting the word out there.  I appreciate it all, I really do.  But there's something lacking.  And it's lacking because we can't get past the notion of ourselves.  We can't look at the big picture of the good.  

- I'm just going, with respect, to remove myself from those last couple of  'we's there - I have been trying to understand the big picture for quite awhile now, and I think I understand a lot of it - but it's like trying to shoot down the moon with arrows to try and get most people here to see the bigger picture ....

Quote:

Like, I've said, I have much time for your thesis siamdave.  More people should.  We need to "WORK" common ground to fertilize it.

- that would be a fuck of a good new years' resolution - trying to work together here to get rid of our common enemy ... you have given me one tiny ray of hope, RP - can we do something with it?

 

RosaL wrote:

......

Of course, I'm not talking primarily about food here. I'm talking about reason and debate. It's true that the ability to reason and debate is largely the purview of the elite. (And guess whose interests that serves?) So let's learn to reason! 

p.s. I'm not saying, "Don't be angry".

- nice, Rosa - more please.

(although I think I would disagree with you about 'reason' being the purview of the elite - it is usually the elite who are locked into 'beliefs' that support a worldview, however obviously false, that supports their 'right' to rule - and the 'common people' who think honestly and see what BS that kind of thing is - the 'wisdom of the common man' (or woman!) is usually much closer to reality .... )