continuation of Democratic Congresswoman Clings to Life in Arizona ( Part 2)
Democratic Congresswoman Clings to Life in Arizona ( Part III)
Mon, 2011-01-10 07:32
#1
Democratic Congresswoman Clings to Life in Arizona ( Part III)
Mon, 2011-01-10 07:36
#2
Maysie
There is another current thread on this topic, which has already drifted.
Two is more than enough.
Mon, 2011-01-10 07:43
#3
I saw the other thread. Didnt read it. But the title wasnt something that would sound like it had good prospects on Babble.
Let it drift.
No doubt this one will go as pointless as the last. But I can at least have a crack at saying some sensible things before it does.
Mon, 2011-01-10 07:44
#4
Finally, I'm deeply concerned with the casual use of language such as "nutbar" and "crazy". I'm going to pop into the new thread to express that particular concern. Such language, depicting someone who may or may not have mental health issues, is not okay on babble.
Maysie may still want to expand on that. I will briefly say now that as well as the casual objectification of people with mental health issues, there is the tacit acceptance that the opinions held by the shooter make him someone who is probably mentally ill.
I've got news for you. He is all too normal. Even if it does turn out he has mental health issues, the kind of things he says are on a continuum that is common to a hell of a lot of 'normal' people in the US. And some here of course.
Mon, 2011-01-10 08:37
#5
I really dont understand people here saying things like, "It doesnt look like this crackpot had a coherent connection in his head to the deliberate and organized fostering of polarization and hate in the US. So I don't really know if this had anything to do with Sarah Palin and the Tea Party."
Folks have often heard this line from the Pima County Sheriff: 'And, unfortunately, Arizona I think has become sort of the capital. We have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry.'
Here is what he said immediately before:
'When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government,' Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik told a news conference.
'The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous.'
And that is putting it even handedly.
And Paul Krugman's column, Climate of Hate:
It's true that the shooter in Arizona appears to have been mentally troubled. But that doesn't mean that his act can or should be treated as an isolated event, having nothing to do with the national climate.
As Clarence Dupnik, the sheriff responsible for dealing with the Arizona shootings, put it, it's "the vitriolic rhetoric that we hear day in and day out from people in the radio business and some people in the TV business." The vast majority of those who listen to that toxic rhetoric stop short of actual violence, but some, inevitably, cross that line.
....
Let's not make a false pretense of balance: it's coming, overwhelmingly, from the right. It's hard to imagine a Democratic member of Congress urging constituents to be "armed and dangerous" without being ostracized; but Representative Michele Bachmann, who did just that, is a rising star in the G.O.P.
And there's a huge contrast in the media. Listen to Rachel Maddow or Keith Olbermann, and you'll hear a lot of caustic remarks and mockery aimed at Republicans. But you won't hear jokes about shooting government officials or beheading a journalist at The Washington Post. Listen to Glenn Beck or Bill O'Reilly, and you will.
Of course, the likes of Mr. Beck and Mr. O'Reilly are responding to popular demand. Citizens of other democracies may marvel at the American psyche, at the way efforts by mildly liberal presidents to expand health coverage are met with cries of tyranny and talk of armed resistance. Still, that's what happens whenever a Democrat occupies the White House, and there's a market for anyone willing to stoke that anger.
Mon, 2011-01-10 09:47
#6
Mon, 2011-01-10 11:32
#7
anything can set someone off, reading the catcher in the rye could have cost an unbalanced person to go off..watching a youtube video can give someone a bad idea..lets look at the real issue here, which is mental health issue.
Mon, 2011-01-10 11:53
#8
There are two issues here.
One is mental health.
One is the political climate in the US.
Whether or not the killer in the US has mental health issues, provision of and access to help is an issue.
Whether or not the killer in the US has mental health issues, and regardless that he is not a self annoited Tea Party legionaire, his actions are intimately connected to the toxic political climate in the US.
Mon, 2011-01-10 12:08
#9
Snert
If only the TeaPartiers could treat progressives with the same basic respect and genuine willingness to listen that progressives treat them with.
Yes, I'm being facetious. We cut the rope on the TeaPartiers long ago. Figured out everything that makes them tick (basically: they're greedy, violent morons, full stop) and dismissed them.
Mon, 2011-01-10 12:18
#10
President Obama says Republicans should stop holding those tax cuts "hostage."
Is that the kind of toxic you are talking about?
Actually, the Tea Party is just another aspect of the U.S political theater that has always been around ..the U.S history has always been marked with violence from within and aboard (civil wars, the 60s, vietnam, Iraq, afghanistian) ...Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and the likes are just the current products of that U.S tradition.
violence is not inspired by the U.S political climate, its due to the message of U.S militarism embededd within the U.S political culture
you can blame any act of violence on the political culture, Hollywood or the lack of economic/social equality or the lack of jobs or the lack of health care and a long list of problems that are permeating our toxic culture...
Mon, 2011-01-10 12:25
#11
I dont know what you are on about Snert.
Who is dismissing the Tea Partiers? And as a general phenomena, and a poltical movement, it is an observation that can be discussed and disagreed with if you want, to say that the Tea Party movement and the braoder political tendency behind it deliberately makes the US a more divisive place.
So far you haen't disagreed with that, just made what I guess is some kind of 'screw all of you' snarky comment.
And while this phenomena is not a new thing in the US, the amount that goes into whipping people up is a categorical leap.
Mon, 2011-01-10 12:59
#12
Bec.De.Corbin
Well it appears (for now) this guy did this pretty much on his own initiative with no direct outside help. I don't really think there's one trigger or enabler that motivated him to do this like mental illness, availability of guns or political rhetoric from the right or whatever. My thinking is this guy is going to turn out to be the "perfect storm" if you will of what's ailing us here in the USA; a combination of all these things, some more than others, that in the end resulted in him thinking he's doing the right thing (in his mind he would have to be thinking this) in shooting that congress women and the people around her.
This guy is our wake up call.
As for the mental illness part I would say his behavior at school and around other people would be a good indicator of that (if he is diagnosed as such) and not his "political" beliefs no matter how absurd they might seem to us: everyone of us here feels that way about one person or another's beliefs here. Does that make us all here mentally ill? I think not.
Mon, 2011-01-10 13:03
#13
anything can set someone off, reading the catcher in the rye could have cost an unbalanced person to go off..watching a youtube video can give someone a bad idea..lets look at the real issue here, which is mental health issue.
Well said. The guy who shot John Lennon was influenced by Catcher in the Rye, the guy who shot Ronald Reagan was influenced by the movie Taxi Driver, Charles Manson thought there were hidden messages in Beatles albums telling him to kill. People who are unstable may be influenced by all sorts of things. Short of actual incitement, it's unreasonable to restrict free expression because of what one lone person may do as a result, especially when it's so hard to predict what may set someone off.
Mon, 2011-01-10 13:29
#14
Those are influences.
We are not only talking about influences. The 'influence' in the US is a political movement that preaches us and them division.
Mon, 2011-01-10 13:32
#15
I see a lot of de-humanizing of political opponents on all sides. The right uses more violent rhetoric, but the left is not immune to de-humanizing language either. That creates a situation where those who are having trouble coping can find solace in a violent act to deal with the things they think are plauging them.
Mon, 2011-01-10 13:40
#16
What do you expect?
Read Krugman's column linked above.
It come naturally to people looking from the outside to say that the Democrats do it as well. And of course it is true.
But the sentiment is fundamentally misplaced.
Mon, 2011-01-10 14:14
#17
Short of actual incitement, it's unreasonable to restrict free expression because of what one lone person may do as a result, especially when it's so hard to predict what may set someone off.
[/quote]
There has been lots of Actual incitement. Don't you think the crosshairs is incitement? And Beck and others? Are they that different than the Belgian priest in Haiti urging people to go out and kill their neighbour because they were tutsi?
There is a youtube video "explaining" money http://www.youtube.com/user/theamericandreamfilm I watched it but I wonder who put it out and for what reason? It has southpark takeoff elements so it is aimed at those who do not go too deep into detail.
It seems to me it is aimed at lefties to make them distrust the money system.
And then you hear that the killer guy was interested in the "gold standard" and returning to it. Thats tea party stuff. Mamy People want all money backed up by gold.
Well, guess what, people, it is too late for that but the quest for "perfect" DOES unhing people.
Gold was just a reference point. But there is no E=MC squared in money. Once cone and cowrie shells were used. A couple of shells were worth a boat or a cow.
Everything moves in value in relation to everything else depending on need. Even gold.
"My kingdom for a horse" is a very good example.
As we know, commerce cannot happen if money does not go round in circles.
Gold standard is a SIMPLE solution.
Simple like crosshairs for decent senators.
People need to look at subjects in a bit more detail. Nothing is so simple when you add the detail.
The teaparty footsoldiers is mostly relatively "poorly educated" religous poor financially white racist people afraid of blacks and mexicans. They are practically fascist.
It is been run from behind the scenes by the Koch brothers. Their money sponsors the propaganda that sets these angry young men off.
A big reason that they do it is because it costs them nothing to make the propaganda (think tank contributions are a tax break), and the more people who believe it, the bigger the bottom line and the bigger the tax break. So it is a big moneymaker AND it keeps the democrats from raising taxes on the rich.
Koch industries make a hell of a lot of money so until someone figures how to break the link between them and the poor frightened hateful white people, the tea party will get stronger and language will get more angry and many more people will get hurt.
The Koch brothers are master psychologists. I bet they are plotting their next move right now. And I bet retreat does not enter their minds.
Assassination just means the plan is working.
Mon, 2011-01-10 14:14
#18
Former NB Lib MLA Kelly Lamrock blogs his thoughts on the subject.
http://kellylamrocksrazor.blogspot.com/2011/01/after-tuscon-making-gentl...
Mon, 2011-01-10 14:52
#19
BTW- its not that I think promoting us and them typologies is inherently bad. To a degree, its a normal part of politics. And I think the NDP should do more.
But what the Right does in the US long ago went over the top in demonization.
Mon, 2011-01-10 15:03
#20
As best as can be expected presently.
Arizona congresswoman still in critical condition
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2011/01/10/arizona-shooting-court-appearan...
Mon, 2011-01-10 15:39
#21
One thing that struck me yesterday was the number of people pointing out that the guy was a "loner" as if that somehow explained things. I've been a "loner" from the day of my birth. Naturally, this irritates and alarms me - "loners" have been victims of violence (and other things) for centuries.
I suspect most violence has a lot to do with group membership and social belonging.
Anyway, that's a somewhat peripheral issue but I thought I'd seize the opportunity to comment on it.
Mon, 2011-01-10 15:46
#22
Mon, 2011-01-10 15:48
#23
Not a loner Rosa, but I noticed that too.
Mon, 2011-01-10 16:20
#24
Check out this humorous little "Liberal Hunting Licence" at The Patriot Shop.
Mon, 2011-01-10 17:44
#25
Sarah Palin hit by fallout from Arizona shooting spree
Republican being damaged by repeated television showings of her having targeted Congresswomen Gabrielle Giffords
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/10/sarah-palin-arizona-shooting...
Mon, 2011-01-10 23:42
#26
So why doesn't this kind of thing happen more often in countries like Switzerland and Canada? We're all armed to the eye teeth, too, apparently.
They'll probably never convince Americans to give up their guns. I doubt they would register all of them anytime soon. The country itself was baptised by violence and gun play. The wild west will probably remain untamed for some time to come. The real question is, do they have the will for a do-over of 1776? Because they obviously have the guns. I wonder if there is a contingency plan for when the American people decide that their government has gone bad?
Tue, 2011-01-11 02:33
#27
More like a do-over of 1861.
Anyways I think a big part of the problem lies in their 2 party system. How many other democracies have only 2 parties? I am of the understanding that most countries have at least 3 if not a lot more. And yes, I realize there is some effort to have a 3rd party in the US but it's hardly close to being considered even a bit player in elections.
With only the 2 parties it's easy to polarize everything. Your side is all puppies and purity and goodness and the other side is evil incarnate.
Tue, 2011-01-11 03:32
#28
So Walmart sold the bullets.
Loughner's parents 'devastated,' 'hurting'
Mother 'almost passed out right there' while father sat in the road and cried, neighbor who broke the news says
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41014125/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
Tue, 2011-01-11 06:39
#29
There's obviously some forms of speech that could stand a thorough scrubbing and disinfecting from any society. Right wing totalitarianism with its vicious propaganda are normally best served up as they are. The thing about them is that little effort on the part of the left needs to be expended to reveal what it is they are about, because they do it themselves. On the other hand, as long as our corporate 4th estate refuses to vigorously challenge the rise of fascism from entities claiming journalistic credentials, I believe we can rightly describe all of them as useless flotsam bobbing around in the same fetid cesspool.
Tue, 2011-01-11 06:54
#30
Maysie
Speaking of guns.
U.S. most armed country in the world, 90 guns per 100 people.
U.S. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms, according to the Small Arms Survey 2007 by the Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies.
About 4.5 million of the 8 million new guns manufactured worldwide each year are purchased in the United States, it said.
On a per-capita basis, Yemen had the second most heavily armed citizenry behind the United States, with 61 guns per 100 people, followed by Finland with 56, Switzerland with 46, Iraq with 39 and Serbia with 38.
France, Canada, Sweden, Austria and Germany were next, each with about 30 guns per 100 people, while many poorer countries often associated with violence ranked much lower. Nigeria, for instance, had just one gun per 100 people.
"Firearms are very unevenly distributed around the world. The image we have of certain regions such as Africa or Latin America being awash with weapons -- these images are certainly misleading," Small Arms Survey director Keith Krause said.
"Weapons ownership may be correlated with rising levels of wealth, and that means we need to think about future demand in parts of the world where economic growth is giving people larger disposable income," he told a Geneva news conference.
Tue, 2011-01-11 07:17
#31
Arizona is on the brink
Since my first visit seven years ago, I have watched as Arizona has drowned in a sea of extremism
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/jan/11/arizona-r...
Tue, 2011-01-11 07:36
#32
[url=http://www.kold.com/global/story.asp?s=13816309] Giffords gives thumbs-up sign [/url]
Tue, 2011-01-11 07:39
#33
Here's hoping.
Tue, 2011-01-11 07:40
#34
Tue, 2011-01-11 08:37
#35
I brought this over from another thread. The part in the quotation box is excerpted, and belonged in that thread.
Then I segwayed into the rant that belongs here.
Lets try a real life example. I had this graphically in mind when I made an oblique reference to this in the thread discussing the Arizona shootings and the history of violence in America.
There is a nice lake [reservoir] in California- Lake Beryessa. I never knew who named it, and there is no historical plaque, but the Berryessas were like my family- Latino ranchers who were there when the Americans came and took over. And American settlers just started occupying chunks of the Berryessa land. There was little or no codified justice yet, but the Berryessas pressed their rights with the new administration, and made it clear they would go to court when they could.
The adult males of the family were lynched on top of one of the hills.
Not surprisingly, no one was charged, there probably was no 'investigation' since the small community of Americans would all know who did it, and there were no court cases pressed by Latino land owners.
At the very most, those of us who draw a line between Sarah Palin and the shootings are guilty of rushing to judgement.
As I have said before, you will not find these kind of 'measured questions' commonly in the left in the US. Not any part of the left. And a very big part of the reason is because in the US we know that history all too well- the history of lynchings by people who saw their way of life threatened. Of course how it plays out today is much more complicated.
But the recognition is there.
There are a few people here who just say "maybe this is rushing to conclusions." And I dont have a problem with that.
But the main thrust here is that there is nothing there at all, with the unmistakable but bizarre subtext that it is all some kind of smokescreen for getting people more behind Obama.
Shove it.
Tue, 2011-01-11 09:21
#36
Investigators are exploring suspected links between Loughner and an online publication known for its strongly anti-immigrant stance, American Renaissance. It has denied any links to the accused killer.
The Southern Poverty Law Centre, one of America's leading trackers of hate crimes, said there are signs in some of Loughner's writings of far-right influence. Mark Potok, the director of research on hate groups at the centre, drew attention to Loughner's online ramblings that reject the US currency.
"At one point, Loughner refers disparagingly to 'currency that's not backed by gold or silver'. The idea that silver and gold are the only 'constitutional' money is widespread in the anti-government 'Patriot' movement that produced so much violence in the 1990s," he said.
Potok said the Patriot movement believes that paper money issued by the government is not legal tender. He said there were also clues to Loughner's thinking in his internet postings in which he accused the government of "mind control on the people by controlling grammar".
Potok said that fits with the theory of a Patriot conspiracy theorist who claims that the government uses grammar to "enslave" Americans.
On Loughner's first encounter with Giffords, at a constituency event in 2007, he is reported to have asked her: "How do you know words mean anything?"
A former friend told the Wall Street Journal that he became "aggravated" when Giffords responded in Spanish before moving on with the meeting.
Other organisations monitoring extremist groups have noted that Loughner spoke despairingly of a "second American constitution", a reference used by some extreme rightwingers to post-civil war constitutional amendments that ended slavery and gave former slaves citizenship.
"One thing that seems clear is that Giffords, who was terribly wounded but survived, was the nearest and most obvious representative of 'the government' that Loughner could find. Another is that he likely absorbed some of his anger from the vitriolic political atmosphere in the United States in general and Arizona in particular," said Potok.
Acquaintances of Loughner have related hearing him rant about issues such as the national currency and language control.
When people here have discussed Loughner's circulated ramblings there has been refernce more than once he was staying weird stuff about currency. What could that have to do with Palin and the Tea Partiers?
And his ramblings about control of language get mentioned in the same way. In the US, even people who did not know about the 'Patriot' narrative about false currency and the Constitution, blah, blah... EVERY liberal or progressive knows what complaining about assault on English is about.
I'll bet I know the gist of what Giffords said in Spanish at that meeting: apologizing to the Latinos and something to the effect of 'lets move on now'. And I'll bet Loughner was 'very aggravated' Giffords responded in Spanish. I wouldn't be surprised if that was where the key turned for him.
The more I hear about the things Loughner said, the less convinced I am that he was probably undiagnosed mentally ill. Sounds like a lot of stuff I've heard before. The Tea Partiers are completely rife with discussions of the coming Armageddon. And they are absolutely ballastic about Latinos. [Some of them- as in Arizona- Latinos are what most rubs them wrong. For others, its easier to do that than complaining in public about black people... because its 'the language thing.]
And as noted before, there are all those thousands of people coming armed to demonstrations against Obamacare last year, where the speeches are all about the plans to make America from us, but we're going to stop them.
Not connected.
And then there is Giffords Tea Party opponent in the election- showing up at campaign rallies in camouflage and with his M-16, and encouraging others to come armed.
Not connected.
Tue, 2011-01-11 09:29
#37
You could do lynchings in the US with impugnity in the twentieth century.
You cannot in the twenty-first.
So now there is distance between the mouth, and the rope or bullet. And the mouth no longer gives commands, its just telling stories.
While people on Babble demand proof of a direct and unambiguous connection.
Tue, 2011-01-11 11:16
#38
Being a left wing politician in America is becoming as dangerous as being an abortion doctor. Terrorism does inhibit the number of doctors willing to practice in women's reproductive health care and it will limit the political debate to whether or not America should bomb Iran or N. Korea first.
Hell "liberals' in America hardly never even mention the fact that their great country is armed to the teeth and killing people in more countries simultaneously than at any time in the past, outside of a world war. No American politician can run as a real peace candidate because if they won election they know they would then literally have a target on their heads.
It is both the underlying imperial culture and the easy access to guns that leads to this. Even someone like this Democratic Congresswoman would not question the legitimacy of the American government to be flying killer drones and bombing villages half way around the world in countries that are supposed to be allies. The people of Pakistan know all about the American gun culture.
The most guns per person in the world, the largest prison population in the world per capita and military spending greater than all other countries combined. Either Americans are insane or their system is.
Tue, 2011-01-11 11:19
#39
Tue, 2011-01-11 11:27
#40
Snert
Why is he posing like he's about to kick the door in?
Tue, 2011-01-11 11:56
#41
Why is he linked too on this site? We all know who he is and personally I need less of Fox not more. Giving him more hits on his site builds his profile and makes his hate speech all the more powerful since he is so well read and has a large audience.
People like him need to be boycotted not quoted. Make him irrelevant by driving down his audience numbers and the hits on his website.
Imperialism leaves no room for peaceful discourse because at its core it requires the elite to firmly believe in their moral superiority. Violence begets violence and all prominent American politicians use violent language and imagery against those they consider to be their enemies. Here is the Congresswoman doing her part for the imperial empire. The people in Pakistan being bombed as we speak probably don't care whether we think she is a progressive or a right winger. They probably only care that she supports the corrupt Pakistani government and wants to arm them to the teeth with things like drones. You cannot propose killing people in other parts of the world and then presume you have the high ground to talk against violence directed at you by your opponents.
Talking to a US delegation comprising Congressmen Adam Smith and Bobby Neal and Congresswoman Gabrielle Gifford, he stressed the need for channelling disbursement of US financial assistance through the established mechanism and institutions in Pakistan to save on administrative expenses on projects run by the USAID and NGOs.
Mr Gilani also called for fulfilling the commitment about assistance for law-enforcement agencies in Swat and Malakand regions and said that personnel of the agencies would adequately prepare themselves for taking over from the armed forces on completion of the current operation.
He said that the armed forces needed immediate replenishment of aviation spares and ammunition and helicopters and counter-intelligence equipment.
He emphasised enhanced exchange of actionable real-time intelligence between the two countries and transfer of drone technology to Pakistan.
Members of the delegation assured the prime minister of their complete support for early passage of the bills.
http://news.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/paki...
Tue, 2011-01-11 12:23
#42
I am a bit confused about your "not connected" bits. It is sarchasm, right? If I have to ask, you need to rewrite it.
The tea party people are into the "real money" all backed by gold thing too.
Thats why I brought it up.
I read some JK Galbraith books and also history is full or agressive countries like the USA who ran out of money.
Koch (who is the propaganda paymaster for the tea party) knows that the USA has a money crunch. The bigger and nastier the crunch, the bigger and more furious his tea party army will be.
But the average tea party cult follower doesn't know ANY of that background. They just have their own money crunch to worry about and the carefully crafted tea party "propaganda Scriptures" on money to read.
Maybe the reason for this money propaganda is to devistate people? (I am not a propaganda expert).
So what does telling the right winger that money is FAKE achieve?
Just like a cult destroys you connection to your family, the tea party has to destroy the poor white guy's connection to the thing he holds most dear in the world, MONEY (It is the USA after all)
This can tie in just enough with new testemant bible stuff about Jesus and Moneylenders for the bible thumping wing of the tea partiers. In their little framework for seeing the world, they have to have a devil (or devils) to get mad at.
Then they grab their gun and ASK to join the crusade against big government and moneylenders.
And for people like that killer, he filled up with hate based on the money propaganda thing, not understanding spanish, and reading Hitlers book.
Actually Edward Longshanks used a similar ploy against the Jews in England 700 years ago.
Anyway, the tea party is really a treasonous organization and it is been directed from behind the scenes by Koch.
Fox is aiding and abbeting the treason. The goal is overthrow of the US system of government.
But lots of its followers do not realize it.
Investigators are exploring suspected links between Loughner and an online publication known for its strongly anti-immigrant stance, American Renaissance. It has denied any links to the accused killer.
The Southern Poverty Law Centre, one of America's leading trackers of hate crimes, said there are signs in some of Loughner's writings of far-right influence. Mark Potok, the director of research on hate groups at the centre, drew attention to Loughner's online ramblings that reject the US currency.
"At one point, Loughner refers disparagingly to 'currency that's not backed by gold or silver'. The idea that silver and gold are the only 'constitutional' money is widespread in the anti-government 'Patriot' movement that produced so much violence in the 1990s," he said.
Potok said the Patriot movement believes that paper money issued by the government is not legal tender. He said there were also clues to Loughner's thinking in his internet postings in which he accused the government of "mind control on the people by controlling grammar".
Potok said that fits with the theory of a Patriot conspiracy theorist who claims that the government uses grammar to "enslave" Americans.
On Loughner's first encounter with Giffords, at a constituency event in 2007, he is reported to have asked her: "How do you know words mean anything?"
A former friend told the Wall Street Journal that he became "aggravated" when Giffords responded in Spanish before moving on with the meeting.
Other organisations monitoring extremist groups have noted that Loughner spoke despairingly of a "second American constitution", a reference used by some extreme rightwingers to post-civil war constitutional amendments that ended slavery and gave former slaves citizenship.
"One thing that seems clear is that Giffords, who was terribly wounded but survived, was the nearest and most obvious representative of 'the government' that Loughner could find. Another is that he likely absorbed some of his anger from the vitriolic political atmosphere in the United States in general and Arizona in particular," said Potok.
Acquaintances of Loughner have related hearing him rant about issues such as the national currency and language control.
When people here have discussed Loughner's circulated ramblings there has been refernce more than once he was staying weird stuff about currency. What could that have to do with Palin and the Tea Partiers?
And his ramblings about control of language get mentioned in the same way. In the US, even people who did not know about the 'Patriot' narrative about false currency and the Constitution, blah, blah... EVERY liberal or progressive knows what complaining about assault on English is about.
I'll bet I know the gist of what Giffords said in Spanish at that meeting: apologizing to the Latinos and something to the effect of 'lets move on now'. And I'll bet Loughner was 'very aggravated' Giffords responded in Spanish. I wouldn't be surprised if that was where the key turned for him.
The more I hear about the things Loughner said, the less convinced I am that he was probably undiagnosed mentally ill. Sounds like a lot of stuff I've heard before. The Tea Partiers are completely rife with discussions of the coming Armageddon. And they are absolutely ballastic about Latinos. [Some of them- as in Arizona- Latinos are what most rubs them wrong. For others, its easier to do that than complaining in public about black people... because its 'the language thing.]
And as noted before, there are all those thousands of people coming armed to demonstrations against Obamacare last year, where the speeches are all about the plans to make America from us, but we're going to stop them.
Not connected.
And then there is Giffords Tea Party opponent in the election- showing up at campaign rallies in camouflage and with his M-16, and encouraging others to come armed.
Not connected.
Tue, 2011-01-11 12:31
#43
Snert
What could that have to do with Palin and the Tea Partiers?
I think they'll tolerate just about any extreme view, whether it's the need for a gold standard to anti-vaccination, anti-fluoridation, or pretty much anything involving shadowy boogeymen, particularly in government.
I expect that pretty much any paranoid person's obsessions would have some overlap with the TP, in some way.
Tue, 2011-01-11 12:34
#44
Why is he linked too on this site? We all know who he is and personally I need less of Fox not more. Giving him more hits on his site builds his profile and makes his hate speech all the more powerful since he is so well read and has a large audience.
People like him need to be boycotted not quoted. Make him irrelevant by driving down his audience numbers and the hits on his website.
A .JPG image file hosted by the Huffington Post probably isn't going to do a whole lot to drive up the pink-faced half-wit's page views.
Just sayin'.
Tue, 2011-01-11 12:34
#45
So why doesn't this kind of thing happen more often in countries like Switzerland and Canada? We're all armed to the eye teeth, too, apparently.
They'll probably never convince Americans to give up their guns. I doubt they would register all of them anytime soon. The country itself was baptised by violence and gun play. The wild west will probably remain untamed for some time to come. The real question is, do they have the will for a do-over of 1776? Because they obviously have the guns. I wonder if there is a contingency plan for when the American people decide that their government has gone bad?
Canada and Switzerland are sitting pretty…The thing that is upsetting Americans is the economy..besides GUNS..Money is a big factor…..look at Greece and places where a little piggy does one thing wrong and there is riots for weeks….in Canada a piggy can kick a brain damaged person in the head and if it isn’t video taped and place on you tube it didn’t happen. Riot over that..hell no, we is all sitting pretty…the state can do what they want….and they do.
Face it Canadians are just too happy right now to give in to the same pressures other countries are facing..but not for long. Because we have tied our selves to the US it’s just a matter of time before there is no demand for resources due to US economic failure and no demand for anything Canadian , hence Canada falls apart and so with it the people .
The US is dying for civil war..everyone is armed to the teeth and can’t wait to play Rambo. Many riots are going un-reported and the only reason the latest Arizona shooting was reported was because it was a politician that was targeted.
I would imagine the next target is going to be a republican politican and hence more tinder for a start of civil war. Good thing the guy had a mein kampf book at least the right know he was a righty nazi. Before ya get things tied in a knot ..realize that the people nazi’s vote for are not left wing governments, and at the same time go back in time to see what a communist government was like and now look at present day US….and all the big brother REAL COMMY CONTROL! Initiatives….the US never looked so commy…today commy manifesto and mein kampf spell right wing slimeball.
From old websites long disappeared there has been plenty of activity in super huge underground bunkers in preperation for the big civil war..apparently there was a site that monitored the exchange of food rations in these underground facility’s and fema camps in fair detail and the amount of trucks and armoured vehicles was mesmerizing..like whole cities under the ground…then there is the shadow government..mass inoculation (extermination) programs (via airesol) etc etc. they are definitely preparing for it.
What concerns me is the US refugee running to Canada, and with no fence and no gun laws ..we would be at the mercy of armed Americans seeking forcable refuge here. Then there is the real terror threat of biologicals being used on Americans by countries or groups taking advantage of the demise of the US…these infected people or areas of the US could be anhilated by their own nukes (so much for children ) or will they run to Canada infecting us. By then it will be too late for Canada anyways,,Canada elected US butt licking neocons ..so Canadians will get what they deserve for doing so.
This is the problem with the modern day US revolt…it would be fine if they just killed each other off…but if you haven’t figured it out yet they have a problem of sticking there pecker nosed faces in other countries business, and involving other countries in the problems they(US) created. Then Canadians wonder how the US can be deemed a threat to world peace in international polls? Maybe it’s because the world is actually watching and listening while dummy canuck is playing video games and the rest are being nursed by the middle class in the geezer home. Just MHO
Tue, 2011-01-11 12:44
#46
Giffords breathing on her own - another good sign.
Giffords Breathing on Her Own, Doctors Say
Injury Remains Very Serious, but Congresswoman Progressing as Expected; Much of Recovery from Here Is "Up to Her," Docs Say
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/11/politics/main7235166.shtml
Tue, 2011-01-11 12:52
#47
i am a Canadian and i am not happy. There are plenty of unhappy Canadians with part time or no jobs.
just because we dont have gun lying around , that doesnt mean we are not committing suicide
Men commit suicide at a rate four times higher than that of women. According to a report by the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI), more men in Ontario committed suicide in the past 10 years than died in car crashes.4
People with mood disorders are at a particularly high risk of suicide.9 Studies indicate that more than 90 percent of suicide victims have a diagnosable psychiatric illness,10 and suicide is the most common cause of death for people with schizophrenia.11 Both major depression and bipolar disorder account for 15 to 25 percent of all deaths by suicide in patients with severe mood disorders.12 According to Toronto Metro Police Mental Health Act data, the number of documented suicide attempts rose 14 percent from 1996 to 2001. Statistics Canada reports that suicide is the eleventh leading cause of death in Canada.13
http://www.ontario.cmha.ca/fact_sheets.asp?cID=3965
just because its not news worthy to talk about people who commit violence unto themselves, that doesnt mean we have less violence in this country.
Tue, 2011-01-11 12:53
#48
I am a bit confused about your "not connected" bits. It is sarcasm, right? If I have to ask, you need to rewrite it.
referring to:
And as noted before, there are all those thousands of people coming armed to demonstrations against Obamacare last year, where the speeches are all about the plans to make America from us, but we're going to stop them.
Not connected. [to the shootings]
And then there is Giffords Tea Party opponent in the election- showing up at campaign rallies in camouflage and with his M-16, and encouraging others to come armed.
Not connected. [to the shootings]
Sorry about that Brian. You are right.
One of the many problems with sarcasm- amplfied on a discussion list- is that they are directed at what other people have said. And when people are coming and going from the discussion, or quite understandably dont remember all the drivel, they may have no idea what you are referring to.
Tue, 2011-01-11 14:01
#49
So why doesn't this kind of thing happen more often in countries like Switzerland and Canada? We're all armed to the eye teeth, too, apparently....
Gun ownwership in Canada is about 1/3, per capita, of tthat he US.
But, in Canada its mostly long rifles--handguns and automatic weopons are much more restricted.
Of course, the latter weapons are readily available in criminal culture, though our laws make it more problematic, when caught.
The extra inconvenience that a nutbar like the Gifford shooter would need to acquire a glock 19 could well have prevented it.
HOWEVER:
The Harper government is working hard to make Canadian gun law enforcement obsolete, with easy access to restricted weapons easy for all Canadians, through the latest development of Deep Integration with the US.
That is, through the making of Fortress (North) America with quick, largely unmonitored, movement between the US and its northern colony.
Laxer previously layed it out here:
Guns: What the proponents of fortress North America want you to forget
By James Laxer
December 17, 2010
....
The proponents are fond of calling up images of the ease of passage for motorists travelling between EU countries such as France and Germany. There, drivers are not required to stop at customs posts when crossing the border.What the Fortress fanciers don't tell you is that the governments of European countries that removed border controls spent years assuring themselves in negotiations that they all had similar regulations for hazardous products before they opened their frontiers to one another. They weren't prepared to open the gates if one country had a more lax regime for hazardous products than the others....
http://www.rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/james-laxer/2010/12/guns-what-propon...
Tue, 2011-01-11 14:57
#50
Maysie
Okay, for the last time.
Do NOT use insulting and oppressive language such as "nutbar" to describe Jared Loughner.
Tue, 2011-01-11 17:38
#51
Protestors will be met by 'angels'
Arizona lawmakers take up funeral protest legislation
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/11/arizona.funeral.westboro/index.html?ire...