newly politicized. mixed feelings about my liberal mp, but he's the only one with a fighting chance in my lib/con riding.

45 posts / 0 new

Fri, 2011-01-14 17:45

nskinskinski

My MP, Paul Szabo, is anti-abortion, anti-woman (has expressed contempt for women's shelters !), and anti-gay. He advocates for fiscal transparency, but doesn't disclose his own spending. Otherwise generally votes according to party lines.

An incumbent, with a 16 year run, he only just wrested the vote from the conservative candidate in the last election. Tories will certainly focus on my riding in the coming election.

How can I reconcile my feelings with the greater good? And how can I practically support his effort? Was thinking of writing him, to tell him he has my conditional support. And that I'd like him to quiet himself on pro-life, misogynist issues in future - his advocacy in that regard doesn't represent me, at least.

Fri, 2011-01-14 17:47

nskinskinski

(Goes without saying that I intend to vote strategically.)

Fri, 2011-01-14 17:51

NorthReport

Vote for the party that you support the most. SV is a no-win situation

Fri, 2011-01-14 17:56

nskinskinski

Sorry, can't agree at all. Just returned from several years in England. Ask students there how they feel about Nick Clegg and their Lib Dem party now.

I support reform, but until PR happens I am terrified of the rightward drift, both globally and at home.

Fri, 2011-01-14 18:20

Fidel

I think it depends on how one intends to vote strategically. For one thing, strategic voting distorts true public opinion. We are supposed to vote with our heads and our hearts. That's democracy and we shouldn't accept anything less.

I vote NDP every chance I get, and even when their chances of winning in my riding are low. I like the NDP on enough of a range of issues more than any other party, and I want the NDP to receive maximum per-vote party funding after sham elections are over and done with. The NDP doesn't rely on Bay Street funding or large donations from "private" or undisclosed sources.

I'm of the opinion that we should always vote with our heads and our hearts and encourage others to do so in preparing people for modern democracy. We have to believe it in our hearts and minds before it has a possibility of realization. We literally have to will it to happen. The two old line parties watch the NDP's vote counts closely every election. They know the NDP are the real opposition to either of those parties' big business, anti-Canadian agendas. They fear even the thought of the NDP, so let's give them something to worry about with every chance for protest that actually counts for something one day every four years.

Fri, 2011-01-14 18:34

Life, the unive...

I lived with the same issue in my riding for years having an extremely right-wing Liberal for an MP. I came to the conclusion (and I am not an NDP member) that if I kept voting in right-wingers no matter what party they were with I was always going to get right-wing policies. One might be faster and more open than the other but they get to the same places in the end.

So I vote my conscience. If that means NDP and they lose fine. I am lucky in that the NDP is now in serious contention in my riding and has a candidate that is head and shoulders above the other parties in terms of vision and track record. But if I thought someone else was the better candidate or their party appealed to me more I would just vote for what I believed in. Period. Full stop.

Fri, 2011-01-14 18:43

kropotkin1951

I would not vote for him under any circumstances. My vote will never go to a misogynist homophobe because it doesn't matter to me what party they are in. The fundamental moral character and the world view of a person seeking my vote is the first inquiry for me, then I will look at their politics. I can accept a centrist ideology if grounded in a firm understanding of social justice. I cannot accept any politician who doesn't understand social justice issues.

Fri, 2011-01-14 21:47

Cueball

With a guy like that in the riding you should take the opportunity to run yourself and denounce him on his sexist attitudes.

Fri, 2011-01-14 22:16

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

Another idea would simply be to vote your conscience. The party you support might not have a prayer of winning but will get a buck or two (forget the formula off hand) in federal matching funds for every vote they get. The other thing you might want to do would be to become a campaign volunteer in another constituency where someone you can support with a clear conscience has a chance of being elected or re-elected.

Fri, 2011-01-14 22:42

#10

Life, the unive...

or if you have the financial resources pick a campaign that is on the bubble and make a donation.

Fri, 2011-01-14 22:49

#11

Frmrsldr

Fidel wrote:

I think it depends on how one intends to vote strategically. For one thing, strategic voting distorts true public opinion. We are supposed to vote with our heads and our hearts. That's democracy and we shouldn't accept anything less.

I vote NDP every chance I get, and even when their chances of winning in my riding are low. I like the NDP on enough of a range of issues more than any other party, and I want the NDP to receive maximum per-vote party funding after sham elections are over and done with. The NDP doesn't rely on Bay Street funding or large donations from "private" or undisclosed sources.

I'm of the opinion that we should always vote with our heads and our hearts and encourage others to do so in preparing people for modern democracy. We have to believe it in our hearts and minds before it has a possibility of realization. We literally have to will it to happen. The two old line parties watch the NDP's vote counts closely every election. They know the NDP are the real opposition to either of those parties' big business, anti-Canadian agendas. They fear even the thought of the NDP, so let's give them something to worry about with every chance for protest that actually counts for something one day every four years.

Thanks Fidel.

That makes me feel very optimistic.

Sat, 2011-01-15 06:33

#12

mmphosis

If I were to vote "strategically", I would vote Conservative to hasten the collapse. But, I don't vote strategically because I once voted strategically and very much regretted doing so.

Thanks for the reminders: "vote with our heads and our hearts and encourage others to do so in preparing people for modern democracy."

Sat, 2011-01-15 09:53

#13

adma

Or, if you're naturally NDP-inclined, don't vote NDP only if there's an extreme case a la Andrew McKeever in Durham in 2008...

Sat, 2011-01-15 10:34

#14

Hamiltonian

Vote strategically for the NDP. Every vote gives the party $1.95. Even if a New Democrat is not elected in your riding, your vote is important in securing resources the party needs to hire expert staff, develop effective strategies, and run powerful lobby campaigns (eg/ Conservative's effective campaign against the NDP on long guns - we could do smilar campaigns to pressure key Liberal and Conservative MPs to support certian Bills).

Sat, 2011-01-15 10:45

#15

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I have said that I am prepared to vote Liberal in the next election to try to help Harper NOT attain a majority.

The riding I live in is a Liberal stronghold...If it was a BQ stronghold,I'd vote for the Bloc...For reasons I don't understand,the NDP doesn't get alot of support in this riding and this province in general but the Cons don't much better either.

Having said this,if my riding's MP was an anti-abortion chauvinist racist with fascist leanings,they would NEVER get my vote,regardless of what Party they represent.

If I was Iggy,I'd rid the party of these faux Liberal types...Clearly they are just Conservatives in red boxer shorts.

My guess is that Iggy figures if he were to rid his party of these poseurs and saboteurs,they'd cross the aisle and give Harper his majority.

But it's also very possible that these Cons in Liberal colours are Liberals because they can't get elected as Conservatives.

Sat, 2011-01-15 11:51

#16

Hamiltonian

Iggy won't rid his party of faux Liberal types because he is himself a faux Liberal type

Sat, 2011-01-15 11:59

#17

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Hamiltonian wrote:

Iggy won't rid his party of faux Liberal types because he is himself a faux Liberal type

Touchez

Sat, 2011-01-15 12:11

#18

jas

nskinskinski, I vote strategically too, although this year I may not have to. In your case, it doesn't really matter who you vote for, because, as you say, either way, you're going to get someone you don't want. In that case, I would think the strongest message you can send would be to vote for the NDP candidate (if that's what you are torn about). There's a limit to how much you should hold your nose when voting. Vote with your heart and your conscience.

Sat, 2011-01-15 12:47

#19

nskinskinski

Thanks all, for your excellent ideas and thoughtful comments. I appreciate the funding argument, and agree that 'voting with your heart' is a lovely, hopeful thing. I think, though, if you've any hope of having your candidate/party win, you've got to rely on at least a two-year, hard-core campaigning effort around meaningful local issues, a charismatic candidate, and a certain amount of dissatisfaction with the incumbent.

None of these holds in my riding. I can't overstate how basically conservative and unmoveable it is. It would take probably five to ten years of concerted, high profile campaigning (outside of elections) to make a dent in it. A *dent*.

What's (kind of, almost) funny is, I don't actually believe my MP is particularly corrupt, or driven by malice per se. Fear, almost certainly - he's a freaking Catholic, who even won some kind of 'pro-life activism' award (how do you make a vomiting smiley?). Small-c conservatism, yes. I think he believes in some 1950s vision of family, community, and responsibility. He's also won the 'hardest working MP' award a few times. He is a moral creature, I think. Though fundamentally, dangerously misguided.

I cannot see his advocacy on his noxious pet issues making a sizeable impact.

I can see Harper further damaging the very fabric of democracy. I can see him undermining every funded institution that even whispers support for social welfare. I can see him continuing to fight hard to create a media environment (by law, by funding) to support the kind of poisonous rhetoric that's entranced certain vulnerable Americans.

Radiorahim - I will most certainly campaign in my next-best-hope constituency. Thank you for that.

Life - I will also contibute to the party consonant with my beliefs. It's not a lot, but I can give a bit.

Cueball - Too many skeletons in my closet to run. Like, they could be their own riding.

What do you think of the idea of creating a watchdog group of sorts, that would lean heavily on my MP around his pro-life actions?

Sat, 2011-01-15 19:46

#20

Hamiltonian

There is a watchdog group.... they call themselves the NDP

Sun, 2011-01-16 01:14

#21

Cueball

nskinskinski wrote:

What do you think of the idea of creating a watchdog group of sorts, that would lean heavily on my MP around his pro-life actions?

I think that is an excellent idea. If you can make it strong enough and build up a good presence and make it an issue, you might see some back pedaling, or at least some comitment to stay away from the issue in an official capacity. Indeed, setting up single issue social action groups is precisely how the "right-to-lifers" get their people nominated and elected on their issues. For all you know he may have no opinion on these issues really, but is just playing to a special interest group that got throught to him.

Non-partisan grass roots organizing on the issues is one of the most effective way to build political will in a community.

Sun, 2011-01-16 02:05

#22

JKR

Another way to help is to become a supporter of fairvote.ca.

Mon, 2011-01-17 02:25

#23

Malcolm

Hamiltonian wrote:

Iggy won't rid his party of faux Liberal types because he is himself a faux Liberal type

Actually, they aren't faux Liberals at all. They are entirely representative of the real soul of the Liberal Party - a right wing political party.

Mon, 2011-01-17 13:15

#24

nskinskinski

Thank you Cueball! Will get on it :)

Thanks JKR!

Mon, 2011-01-17 14:37

#25

kropotkin1951

Malcolm wrote:

Hamiltonian wrote:

Iggy won't rid his party of faux Liberal types because he is himself a faux Liberal type

Actually, they aren't faux Liberals at all. They are entirely representative of the real soul of the Liberal Party - a right wing political party.

Mon, 2011-01-17 14:54

#26

Dodger718

Interesting dilemna. Szabo really is one of the worst out there. He's a nobody who has coasted for years by being a Liberal in a relatively safe (until now) riding and has done nothing to distinguish himself. I'd vote for a competent Conservative over him.

I live in Joe Volpe's riding and can't stand the guy. I may vote Green anyway and content myself that I voted my conscience but still quietly hope that Volpe loses.

Mon, 2011-01-17 15:17

#27

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Dodger718 wrote:

a competent Conservative.

LOL!!

Mon, 2011-01-17 15:35

#28

kropotkin1951

Many Conservatives are very competent. I just don't like their areas of competency. Dodger could you explain how advocating in any circumstances voting for a Conservative federally fits with discussing issues from a progressive perspective. I am interested to hear how giving Harper another trained seal could ever be considered a good idea from anything other than a conservative viewpoint.

Mon, 2011-01-17 21:23

#29

Malcolm

Kropotkin, I think that Dodger was merely making a point about a binary choice. If the only choice were a Conservative and a Liberal, then there would be no choice at all in terms of policy since the policies of the two parties are virtually identical. In that binary dystopia, I could see being tempted to vote Conservative on the basis that the Liberal Party is generally more corrupt (though that may just be a function of being more frequently in government).

In fact, if my only choices wwere Liberatives and Conserverals, I'd spoil my ballot and move to Sweden.

Mon, 2011-01-17 21:43

#30

adma

Dodger718 wrote:

Interesting dilemna. Szabo really is one of the worst out there. He's a nobody who has coasted for years by being a Liberal in a relatively safe (until now) riding and has done nothing to distinguish himself. I'd vote for a competent Conservative over him.

To be fair, according to Wikipedia...

Notably, Szabo was determined to have spoken the most words in the 38th Parliament—154,683 to be exact—by the How'd They Vote website.

On November 21, 2006, Szabo was honoured as "The Hardest-Working" Member of Parliament at the First Annual Parliamentarian of the Year Awards ceremony held at the National Gallery in Ottawa. Sponsored by Macleans, l'Actualite and the Dominion Institute, the selection was based on an Ipsos-Reid survey of all 306 current Members of Parliament. On November 21, 2007, Szabo was honoured with the same award for a second consecutive year at a ceremony held at the Chateau Frontenac Hotel in Ottawa.

Mon, 2011-01-17 22:23

#31

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Besides the Liberals' support of Israel and Afghanistan,they are NOWHERE as much as an extremist right wing party as our current government.

I think the Liberals have turned into the old PC party...They lean to the right but are atleast somewhere near the middle.

I'd just as soon jump feet first into a wood chipper than EVER,EVER voting for the Harpercons.

A progressive trying to make a point about the Liberals with voting Conservative would be like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

First we turf the extreme right rule,then we get a government atleast somewhere near the middle,THEN we have atleast a chance in hell of shifting some policies to the left.

Canadian poltics can't move to the left when we are light years to the right.

Mon, 2011-01-17 22:33

#32

Life, the unive...

Yet in at least one election in my riding the Liberal MP was a great deal right of the Conservative candidate. I think you have to be careful in making claims that there is any real, substantive difference between anti-choice, anti-equal marriage, anti-union pro-big business Liberals and anyone sitting on the Conservative bench other than their colour choice in clothing accessories.

I didn't vote for either them, but I can see where it might be a bit confusing as to what is really right or not.

Mon, 2011-01-17 23:04

#33

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I'm just pointing out that in 13 years the Liberals--with majorities--didn't try to turn the country into a military supremist police state.

They didn't send ground troops into Iraq,they never posted 50 billion dollar deficits,they didn't enact a war measures act during any summits and they weren't hell bent on cutting funds to organizations...Even if those organizations didn't fit their agenda.

BUT they lied about NAFTA,they lied about the GST,they cowered to the U.S. and let the Americans dictate Canadian domestic policy in 2003 and they swung away from the centre when Paul Martin took over.

The Liberals are not a party I'd ever support financially or morally but thanks to the current political atmosphere,I have to hold my nose and do what I can to get rid of the bastards who currently are holding power.

The Liberals will never be confusd as a party of the left but what's the alternative?

Are you seriously going to tell me that the Libs are as extreme as the Cons?...Are you going to tell me that the Libs are WORSE than the Cons?

Even old stock Progressive Conservatives have publicly trashed the Harpercons AND warned about how damaging it would be to give Harper his majority.

There is NO confusing the Harpercons..They are extremists and cut from the same mould as Totalitarian tyrants such as Dick Cheney and Maggie Thatcher.

A vote for Harper is the same as voting for Palin and supporting the Harpercons is like joining the Tea Party.

And there is NOTHING progressive about that

Mon, 2011-01-17 23:50

#34

Malcolm

Alan, I think you are confusing the Liberal record and the Liberal rhetoric. Their rhetoric is well to the left of the HarperCons. Their record is not.

And BTW, the Liberals actually did introduce martial law during peace time. You seem to have forgotten.

Tue, 2011-01-18 00:26

#35

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

@Malcolm.

No,I didn't forget about the War Measures Act from 1970....Not to justify it (not to misconstrued as trivializing the October Crisis) but in 1970,there was a kidnapping of a diplomat and an MNA...How do you think Harper,with his obsession with law & order and the military,would have handled the October Crisis?...Scares the hell out me just thinking about it.

Harper imposes martial law on citizens exercising their right to protest...

Can someone name a government more partisan than the Harpercons from the last 50 years?...Can anyone remember a time when we had a government whose caused more divisions than the current regime?

I understand people's disdain for the Liberals and,in fact,I haven't voted for them since the fall of Mulroney's Conservatives.

I just don't buy the assertion that the Liberals are more dangerous,demented and extreme than the Reform Party and I know things are in really bad shape in Ottawa when I find myself ready to support a 'lesser of 2 evils' party.

Tue, 2011-01-18 02:06

#36

Malcolm

I don't think anyone has particularly argued that the Liberals are "more dangerous, demented and extreme than the Reform Party." Personally, I think the Liberals are more or less AS dangerous, demented and extreme - plus way more corrupt. In fact, the Chretien - Martin ministry was consistently to the right of Mulroney, Clark, Diefenbaker and possibly even Bennett. The HarperCons are merely the logical extension of the ideological trajectory on which we had already been travelling. Paul Martin's last minute "conversion" to more progressive policy options was a nothing more than a desperate attempt to save his sorry hide.

When one starts falling into the "lesser of two evils" trap, one perhaps needs to be reminded that the lesser of two evils is still evil.

Which still assumes the Liberals are "lesser," which is not a point I'm prepared to concede. I actually think there is a logic to the position that right wing and corrupt is worse than merely right wing.

The upshot of it all is that I cannot imagine a circumstance in which I would be prepared to waste my vote on a Liberal candidate in the hope of ever seeing any progressive policies.

Tue, 2011-01-18 07:44

#37

adma

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

Yet in at least one election in my riding the Liberal MP was a great deal right of the Conservative candidate.

And there are other Liberal-to-right-of-Conservative cases out there--just think of Tom Wappel vs Reg Stackhouse, or, for that matter, some may argue Iggy vs Patrick Boyer...

Tue, 2011-01-18 08:00

#38

Life, the unive...

Alan, the last time I checked I vote locally and not in a Presidental election. So when you are casting your vote for a person in your own riding it can get confusing, which is all I am saying so your lecture is inappropriate. Also I am now old enough to take the long view about who is and was the most right wing in terms of actual policy outcomes.

Tue, 2011-01-18 09:43

#39

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I'm not trying to be a PLC cheerleader.

I just find it a little alarming when I read self proclaimed progressives entertain the thought of voting Conservative.

And by the way,I wasn't lecturing anyone..I was explaining my position.

As for the 'lesser of 2 evils' aspect,admittedly it's been generations of a 2 party system that has our political system in the sorry state it's in today.

Personally,if I had the option,I'd like an atheist socialist pure left party.

After saying all I have about the Libs,I'd like to mention something I don't understand.

A month or so back,someone left me a link to the NDP page where the NDP have in writing trheir platform and where they stand on issues and I was blown away with NDP policy.

And it blew me even further away that I had no idea about NDP policy.

You see Layton do commercials bringing up family doctors and affordable heating--2 very important issues...BUT you don't hear everything else.

Why doesn't the NDP come out of the political closet,share their ideals,values and exactly where they stand on issues,showcase themselves as a real and viable option and take the reigns of Canada's party of progress and social justice.

And fuck the 30 something % who'd never vote for them anyway.

Wed, 2011-01-26 11:47

#40

Sean in Ottawa

To answer the opening post-- he is a conservative in a red tie.

So if you want something other than a conservative then vote for one.

I hardly see electing someone like that to the chamber is a plus and even the more centrist of the Liberals won't oppose this government. There are a number of characteristics in your opening post that would lead me never to vote for him.

Isn't the need to vote against a conservative and for something better more important than choosing the political affiliation of the Conservative you vote for-- or of choosing between conservatives?

There are many ridings where Conservatives cannot be pushed out-- you go and vote for who you want and know you did it.

Wed, 2011-01-26 11:48

#41

Sean in Ottawa

Alan-- I totally agree with your last post. I hope someone is listening.

Tue, 2011-02-01 20:04

#42

George Victor

alan smithee wrote:

I'm not trying to be a PLC cheerleader.

I just find it a little alarming when I read self proclaimed progressives entertain the thought of voting Conservative.

And by the way,I wasn't lecturing anyone..I was explaining my position.

As for the 'lesser of 2 evils' aspect,admittedly it's been generations of a 2 party system that has our political system in the sorry state it's in today.

Personally,if I had the option,I'd like an atheist socialist pure left party.

After saying all I have about the Libs,I'd like to mention something I don't understand.

A month or so back,someone left me a link to the NDP page where the NDP have in writing trheir platform and where they stand on issues and I was blown away with NDP policy.

And it blew me even further away that I had no idea about NDP policy.

You see Layton do commercials bringing up family doctors and affordable heating--2 very important issues...BUT you don't hear everything else.

And fuck the 30 something % who'd never vote for them anyway.

Do you think it would do something to stir the twenty-somethings from their comatose state?

Wed, 2011-02-02 04:49

#43

Lord Palmerston

nskinskinski wrote:
My MP, Paul Szabo, is anti-abortion, anti-woman (has expressed contempt for women's shelters !), and anti-gay.

...and is not worth supporting.

Wed, 2011-02-02 13:15

#44

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

George Victor wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

I'm not trying to be a PLC cheerleader.

I just find it a little alarming when I read self proclaimed progressives entertain the thought of voting Conservative.

And by the way,I wasn't lecturing anyone..I was explaining my position.

As for the 'lesser of 2 evils' aspect,admittedly it's been generations of a 2 party system that has our political system in the sorry state it's in today.

Personally,if I had the option,I'd like an atheist socialist pure left party.

After saying all I have about the Libs,I'd like to mention something I don't understand.

A month or so back,someone left me a link to the NDP page where the NDP have in writing trheir platform and where they stand on issues and I was blown away with NDP policy.

And it blew me even further away that I had no idea about NDP policy.

You see Layton do commercials bringing up family doctors and affordable heating--2 very important issues...BUT you don't hear everything else.

And fuck the 30 something % who'd never vote for them anyway.

Do you think it would do something to stir the twenty-somethings from their comatose state?

Maybe if the NDP wooed the University circuit...But really,I don't know what it will take to motivate the youth vote to show up at the polls.

As I said,the NDP has nothing to lose and everything to gain by exposing their platform for everyone to see and exploiting the fact that they are the REAL alternative.

The only people they'd offend is Harper's core supporters who'd just as soon vote for Mickey Mouse as long as he was draped in the Conservative brand.

I think the NDP platform scares the Cons because the lion's share of it would be more popular than the Con agenda...It's also the reason why the Libs always try to steal NDP ideas around election time.

Wed, 2011-02-02 13:38

#45

George Victor

Taking NDP proposals - like improving the GIS pension - is not beneath the Cons either, looks like. But surely the 20 somethings could ferret out NDP policy if they themselves were not, like the Conservatives, afraid of its requirement that they face real needs of real people. Not that they would ever come to old age and poverty themselves, of course.