Manitoba Premier Greg Selinger's planned trip to Israel

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Tue, 2011-03-08 23:20

PSG

Manitoba Premier Greg Selinger will be travelling to Israel in mid-October in search of deeper economic and cultural ties with Israel.

More info here: http://paulsgraham.ca/index.php/2010/10/06/manitoba-premier-supports-isr...

This trip is an affront to all who believe in human rights and social justice.

I've written him an open letter that you can find here:

http://paulsgraham.ca/index.php/2010/10/07/an-open-letter-to-manitoba-pr...

I hope folks will do something similar. Greg Selinger's email address is [email protected].

Issues Pages:

Gaza

Politics in Canada

Thu, 2010-10-07 02:02

milo204

See this is why progressives have a hard time supporting the NDP.

Thu, 2010-10-07 03:20

Cueball

Will he be moving there permanently? If so perhaps I support his decision, given his views.

Thu, 2010-10-07 10:08

remind

milo204 wrote:
See this is why progressives have a hard time supporting the NDP.

Is it?

You know ALL progressives now? Of course not. So please stop expropriating my voice and position.

Thank you in advance

Thu, 2010-10-07 22:51

Cueball

I don't see how he is expropriating your voice. The problem is real. I run into it all the time. Progressive people who will not support the NDP because of its apparent lack of principles on this issue. Committed people who do work on activist issues, of all kinds. This is particularly bad because a lot of younger people are really hooked into this issue, and it makes them pretty cynical.

Thu, 2010-10-07 23:08

al-Qa'bong

Quote:

Is it?

You know ALL progressives now?

Milo said "progressives," not "all progressives."

Get over yourself.

That said, "this" probably isn't the only reason so few progressives support the Nude Ems.

Thu, 2010-10-07 23:17

PSG

All this is quite, ah, interesting, folks. Ahem. Anyone want to suggest what it would take to get the NDP to get over its fear of confronting Israeli apartheid. The word makes them nervous. Care to suggest how they can get over it?

And those of you who think that a Manitoba NDP Government should be ashamed to be caught dead signing partnership agreements with Israel: have to written Mr. Selinger, yet? He's at [email protected].

Thu, 2010-10-07 23:30

Unionist

Thank you, Paul - excellent initiative. I'll send my own note, though I think voters may have more influence. Mind you, aren't you getting ready to elect a mayor with the same views as Selinger about Israel? Keep your cyber-pencils sharpened.

Fri, 2010-10-08 00:52

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

al-Qa'bong wrote:

Quote:

Is it?

You know ALL progressives now?

Milo said "progressives," not "all progressives."

Get over yourself.

That said, "this" probably isn't the only reason so few progressives support the Nude Ems.

Hah! Get over yourself, dude. Your grammar policing rings hollow. And your mysogony rings true.

Fri, 2010-10-08 01:00

#10

milo204

not trying to speak for anyone, just pointing out that the NDP, who often consider themselves the only real "progressive option" have been a lot less progressive as of late. Supporting Israel (although they refused to kick out libby) and abandoning their socialist positions? not exactly a party that i'd want to support.

Fri, 2010-10-08 01:03

#11

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Yes, the Libs and Cons do so much better on that file, eh?

Fri, 2010-10-08 07:44

#12

remind

Cueball wrote:
I don't see how he is expropriating your voice.

How unfortunate for you, though not surprising especially seeing as how you just denied my stating that I felt he did.

He did not say some progressives, he made a blanket statement of "progressives".

Hell, if so called "progressives" want to vote for parties that are even less progressive and who have managed to put us into the state we are in, they are welcome to it. But they have only themselves to blame for the continued state of negative affairs, not the NDP.

Fri, 2010-10-08 08:00

#13

Caissa

His intent was clear. I feel you are being disingenuous.

Fri, 2010-10-08 11:31

#14

al-Qa'bong

RevolutionPlease wrote:

al-Qa'bong wrote:

Quote:

Is it?

You know ALL progressives now?

Milo said "progressives," not "all progressives."

Get over yourself.

That said, "this" probably isn't the only reason so few progressives support the Nude Ems.

Hah! Get over yourself, dude. Your grammar policing rings hollow. And your mysogony rings true.

Yeah...OK.

So, like, don't Bogart that joint, man.

Tue, 2010-10-19 12:48

#15

PSG

Selinger is home and Samuel Segev enthuses in the Winnipeg Free Press about how his visit "has been instantly transformed into a "Manitoba week" in Israel."

The article is at http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/westview/manitoba-strengthens-t....

I encourage one and all to post comments on the article at the WFP.

Fri, 2010-10-22 13:56

#16

2dawall

Well unfortunately the WFP is an extreme bullhorn for Israel; it has always been pro-Israel but it became rabidly so once the Silver family bought it from the Globe chain. They have, for example, pushed Manji's turgid book dozens of times.

Unfortunately the local pro-Palestinian solidarity movement is weak; Can-PalNet for example does not even maintain its Wpg version of its website. Furthermore there is little connection between Arabs and Palestinians and those with solidarity with Palestinians. In the past 20 years there have been sporadic efforts by Palestians/Arabs that were unknown to other activists and no serious connections were created or maintained. Moverover, much of the Wpg Left has been covertly or overtly hostile to Palestinian concerns with much of the Left sabotaging any efforts at anything happening.

Fri, 2010-10-22 14:42

#17

Maysie

Moving this to central canada.

Fri, 2010-10-22 15:01

#18

NDPP

I sent him a note along with this, which he will now be helping to support:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpg2CLT9Fno&feature=player_embedded

Fri, 2010-10-22 15:04

#19

bagkitty

Damn, I didn't know that moderators had the ability to rewrite the constitution.

According to the Government of Canada, Manitoba is considered part of the Western division. I wonder if the Manitoba based babblers were informed that they have been annexed and are now Central Canadian Overlords?

[waves to Maysie]

ETA: of course it could have been moved to "the Prairies" forum...

Quote:
Western Canada, also referred to as the Western provinces and commonly as the West, is a region of Canada generally including all parts of Canada west of the province of Ontario. The West is considered by many to be a cultural region with an identity separate from that of the rest of Canada. The special cultural, political, and economic characteristics of "the West" are, however, not universally agreed upon, nor are its geographical limits and stereotypes of the West mask the cultural, physical and historical differences within this vast and varied region.

From west to east, this region comprises four provinces:

* British Columbia
* Alberta
* Saskatchewan
* Manitoba
* All provinces were part of the North-West Territories and Ruperts Land. *

The latter three are collectively the Prairie Provinces, or simply the Prairies. British Columbia is also known as the Pacific Province, and in a more geographical sense is also referred to as the Pacific Slope and sometimes interchangeably with "the West Coast". Alberta and British Columbia are sometimes called "mountain provinces".

In some contexts, the term Western Canada may also include the territories of Yukon, Northwest Territories and Nunavut, although these are now more commonly grouped as the distinct region of Northern Canada.

Western Canada covers 2,908,433 square kilometres (1,122,955 square miles), or approximately 29% of Canada's land area. It is more than four times as large as Texas and more than twice as large as the United Kingdom, Ireland, France, Spain and Portugal combined.

The source of this division of regions is the division of seats in the Canadian Senate, as set out in the Canadian Constitution.

[some emphasis added, the quote is taken from the wiki article on Western Canada]

Makes me wonder about the way geography is taught in Overlord educational insitutions.

[waves to Maysie again]

Fri, 2010-10-22 15:48

#20

milo204

remind, i think the problem is that many progressives just don't vote at all, since there are almost no parties that are speaking to them, rather than voting lib/con instead of ndp.

i may not agree with it, but that's the reality. Sure i've been telling my circle of friends to at least get out and vote green or ndp since it's certainly better than what we got but with our first past the post system and almost no hope in hell of the greens having ANY say in federal matters people often just decide not to vote at all. Even a "none of the above" on the ballot would get more people out to vote i think.

The problem, like i said earlier, is that the policies put forward by most parties simply don't speak to many people so they don't support them. The israel issue and the ndp is just one example.

Fri, 2010-10-22 16:27

#21

Evening Star

I'm relatively naive about this issue so I'm asking sincerely and out of curiosity: Why is it necessarily a bad thing for Manitoba's NDP govt to work on co-operative projects with Israel to promote the arts and research? I realize that Israel's human rights record is problematic, from what I understand, but how is this worse than all the trade we do with countries like China or Saudi Arabia or the US for that matter, all of whom have committed major human rights violations, which may be worse in some cases, especially considering that a unilateral boycott by the MB govt is probably not going to make much of an impact, given how close the US or even federal Cdn govts are to Israel?

Fri, 2010-10-22 18:14

#22

PSG

@Evening Star: Those are all good questions. In fact, many people who wanted to keep doing business with South Africa during the apartheid era asked those very same questions. Fortunately, over time, much of the world came to understand that doing business with a regime that segregated and persecuted people on the basis of ethnicity was terribly wrong.

It's true that the human rights records of the countries you mention leave lots to be desired. There may be an argument for boycotting them; there may not. It's open to debate.

However, the boycott, divestment and sanctions campaign against Israel that is gaining strength around the world makes sense because:

1. It is a nonviolent strategy that has been put forward by Palestinian civil society as a means of forcing Israel to negotiate honestly with Palestine. Check this out for more info: http://bdsmovement.net/?q=node/126#intro

2. Israel has installed a system of apartheid which forces Palestinians onto ever shrinking parcels of land and where any resistence is met with violence, imprisonment and torture. These actions are not merely "problematic" violations of human rights; they are calculated, systematic and brutal.

3. Palestinians are denied access to the basic necessities of life; almost 2 years after "operation Cast Lead," which left Gaza destroyed and 1600 people dead, the inhabitants eke out a meager existence; Israel will not allow them to import what they need to rebuild.

If the Manitoba government were to sever its ties to the State of Israel it would not be unilateral; more and more local governments are joining the BDS movement. But it would be a tremendous boost for the cause of Palestinian justice. Coming from a Canadian provincial government, it would have a profound political impact on the Israelis and would encourage other western governments to take similar measures.

I'm sure there are many other reasons why we should be pushing the BDS movement in our various communities. Don't hold back out there.

Sat, 2010-10-23 14:08

#23

2dawall

Part of what differentiates Israel from those other countries is that there is a gallingly huge ediface of propaganda machinery supporting Israel as well as both government and private support internally from Canada to Israel. Nobody disputes the abuses about Saudi Arabia or China. Our media has frequently mentioned what is wrong with SA and China but not only suppress basically factually correct information about Israel but also launches attacks against Palestinians and pro-Palestinian solidarity.

Furthermore, academics and activists who are pro-Palestinian are harassed by groups such as Campus Watch or private investigators hired by B'Nai B'rith. Moreover, we have seen the emergence of Christian Zionists (who are simutaneously anti-Semitic and fervently pro-Israel) which are raising money for Israel and also harassing pro-Palestinian activists.

To be in solidarity with Palestine while living in North America is to be buried alive with several layers of socially-constructed plexiglass. To mention one particular fact or anecdote related to the occupation is to be at the very bottom of the Tower of Babel, nobody will recognize or understand one thing at all.

Fri, 2010-10-29 14:59

#24

2dawall

BTW PSG I could not get a post on the WFP website. Either I came too late or they smelled a campaign or they did not like me referring to the recent 'only Ashkanazi are Jews' demonstration that took place recently in Israel (I did not word it that way). Or maybe because I mentioned Norman Finklestein. Oh well. You might want to check out the most recent Uniter which has an article on the effort to start Students Against Israeli Apartheid chapter there. Note how the charge that posters at the U of M last year was anti-semitic has no clarification or rebuttal.

http://uniter.ca/view/5028/

Wed, 2010-11-03 15:02

#25

PSG

Yves Engler provides some much needed analysis of the Manitoba delegation's Israeli tour and the role played by the Jewish National Fund Canada. You can find this new article at http://www.peacealliancewinnipeg.ca/2010/11/manitobas-connection-to-isra...

Thu, 2010-11-04 14:08

#26

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Yves Engler wrote:

Every Canadian who opposes racism should be embarrassed, and J.S. Woodsworth, the Winnipeg-based founder of Canada's Co-operative Commonwealth Federation, which eventually became the NDP, must be turning in his grave.

The NDP premier of Manitoba, Greg Selinger, and two of his ministers recently visited Israel. Among other things, the official delegation strengthened the longtime "progressive" government's ties to the Jewish National Fund (JNF).

The province and JNF signed an accord to jointly develop two bird conservation sites, while Manitoba water stewardship minister Christine Melnick spoke at the opening ceremony for a park built in Jaffa by the JNF, the Tel Aviv Foundation and Manitoba-Israel Shared Values Roundtable. During the trip, the JNF's president for the prairies, Mel Lazerek, was also appointed Manitoba's special representative to Israel for economic and community relations.

Manitoba's ties to this openly discriminatory institution are shocking, but also [b]part of a decades-old pro-Israel policy of the NDP that must be challenged by real progressives.[/b]

– [url=http://rabble.ca/news/2010/11/progressive-canadians-must-challenge-jewis... [emphasis added]

Wed, 2011-01-12 16:36

#27

Scribe

@ bagkitty post #17:

I too wonder why rabble chooses to designate Manitoba as a central Canada province. My own pet theory is that they are all hardcore Risk players who took some of their cues from the Risk playing board, where Manitoba is featured as part of Central Canada. Call it a lack of imagination on the part of rabble.

On another note, placing Manitoba in Central Canada ensures Manitoba topics are drowned out amidst the plethora of Ontario/Quebec threads.

Wed, 2011-01-12 23:31

#28

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

People can only read one thread at a time.

The idea that a thread can be drowned out by any other threads is absurd.

Thu, 2011-01-13 00:30

#29

6079_Smith_W

Scribe wrote:

@ bagkitty post #17:

I too wonder why rabble chooses to designate Manitoba as a central Canada province. My own pet theory is that they are all hardcore Risk players who took some of their cues from the Risk playing board, where Manitoba is featured as part of Central Canada. Call it a lack of imagination on the part of rabble.

On another note, placing Manitoba in Central Canada ensures Manitoba topics are drowned out amidst the plethora of Ontario/Quebec threads.

Actually the real question is why Ontario and Quebec are considered central Canada, since the longitudinal centre is just east of Winnipeg. Though I suppose even stranger is how the Bombers are considered an eastern team.

THen again, in our province Southend is way up north, and Eastend is out west near the Alberta border, and North Portal is down south on the U.S. border, and West End is practically in Manitoba.

(edit)

Though I expect if we had people scratching their heads wondering why they had to look for Toronto news in an "eastern Canada" thread (which is what easterners are to us) there might be a bit more of a fuss.

The northwest Ontarians really have my sympathy. I know every few years some people there start talking about a referendum. THey should just go ahead and join Manitoba.

Tue, 2011-01-18 10:41

#30

genstrike

Event coming up for those of you in Winnipeg "The Manitoba NDP, The Left, and Canadian support for Israel": http://rabble.ca/whatsup/manitoba-ndp-left-and-canadian-support-israel-0

Tue, 2011-01-18 11:13

#31

NDPP

sounds like a good one genstrike - if there's video taken/posted let us know. The JDL Canada-EDL-Tea Party links should also be raised there.

Tue, 2011-01-18 11:39

#32

kropotkin1951

Scribe wrote:

I too wonder why rabble chooses to designate Manitoba as a central Canada province.

What I find great is that it appears Saskatchewan has its own forum, "the Prairies", since Manitoba is in Central Canada and BC and Alberta are in the West. As a progressive I find it disheartening that the left at the Centre of the Universe has bought the right wing mime that BC and Alberta are the same political culture and not separate entities with very different political cultures. The BC Liberals have spent a decade promoting the idea of the two provinces being right wing bastions against the socialists and here on babble that view is mirrored in the forums.

Tue, 2011-01-18 11:48

#33

genstrike

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

sounds like a good one genstrike - if there's video taken/posted let us know. The JDL Canada-EDL-Tea Party links should also be raised there.

I hear there's going to be video up on youtube of it - I'll post it when I get the link sent to me.

I think the JDL-EDL links are important, but it's a little trickier to talk about in Winnipeg as Winnipeg doesn't have an active JDL chapter, or anything similar. The more "official" Zionist organizations seem to have enough power and enough connections to politicians and the media to render this kind of stupid thuggery unneccessary (although they couldn't stop IAW...)

Tue, 2011-01-18 14:43

#34

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

As a progressive I find it disheartening that the left at the Centre of the Universe has bought the right wing mime [sic] that BC and Alberta are the same political culture and not separate entities with very different political cultures.

Um, yeah. Just like we have bought the meme that Ontario and Quebec (i.e. "Central Canada") are the same political culture!

On babble the provinces are grouped by geography, not political culture. Either get over it or arrange to move your province somewhere else.

Tue, 2011-01-18 18:30

#35

2dawall

genstrike wrote:

Event coming up for those of you in Winnipeg "The Manitoba NDP, The Left, and Canadian support for Israel": http://rabble.ca/whatsup/manitoba-ndp-left-and-canadian-support-israel-0

Uh does this link lead to anything other than the current events listing for anybody else?

I see other events listed for Winnipeg but not the one described.

Tue, 2011-01-18 19:06

#36

kropotkin1951

M. Spector wrote:

On babble the provinces are grouped by geography, not political culture. Either get over it or arrange to move your province somewhere else.

Yes geographicaly! So neither Alberta nor Manitoba is a Prairie province. As for the last little uncalled snipe. Fuck off and get over yourself.

Tue, 2011-01-18 19:32

#37

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Uncalled for? After your thoroughly imaginary scenario about how the "left at the Centre of the Universe" has bought into a right-wing meme, I'm not allowed to point out that you're full of shit?

Tue, 2011-01-18 19:47

#38

kropotkin1951

Gee M. Spector if you cannot tell the difference between generalized sarcasm and a personal direct insult aimed at one poster there is little I can say in response. Try to work on that sense of humour it will keep your blood pressure down.

Tue, 2011-01-18 19:50

#39

6079_Smith_W

Well that's all as clear as mud.

Speaking of which, there's more muskeg and shield than there is prairie in Saskatchewan, and I've never seen any part of it that is as flat as the Red River Valley.

And speaking of "central" canada, is Alberta that much closer to the west coast than Ontario is to the east? I know it's not closer than Quebec is. For that matter, maybe Ontario should be international, seeing as it is right down there with California.

I think the main reason why we switched to east, west and Central is because if we stuck with the original "upper" and "lower", ontario would just find itself bumped way down the pile.

Tue, 2011-01-18 23:30

#40

Unionist

2dawall wrote:

genstrike wrote:

Event coming up for those of you in Winnipeg "The Manitoba NDP, The Left, and Canadian support for Israel": http://rabble.ca/whatsup/manitoba-ndp-left-and-canadian-support-israel-0

Uh does this link lead to anything other than the current events listing for anybody else?

I see other events listed for Winnipeg but not the one described.

[url=http://winnipegactivism.wordpress.com/2011/01/13/event-israel-apartheid-... is a working link[/url] for the particular event.

Wed, 2011-01-19 02:11

#41

genstrike

2dawall wrote:

genstrike wrote:

Event coming up for those of you in Winnipeg "The Manitoba NDP, The Left, and Canadian support for Israel": http://rabble.ca/whatsup/manitoba-ndp-left-and-canadian-support-israel-0

Uh does this link lead to anything other than the current events listing for anybody else?

I see other events listed for Winnipeg but not the one described.

Okay, I posted this event a couple days ago. Then I looked for the link to day and I couldn't find it. So I figured I must have screwed it up and not hit submit or something. So, I made the event again. Now, it is gone again.

What's the deal?

Wed, 2011-01-19 11:11

#42

genstrike

Okay, posted the event again: http://rabble.ca/whatsup/manitoba-ndp-left-and-canadian-support-israel-0

Wed, 2011-01-19 11:28

#43

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Somehow I don't think rabble wants to list your event.

Wed, 2011-01-19 12:24

#44

genstrike

M. Spector wrote:

Somehow I don't think rabble wants to list your event.

I'm trying not to jump to conclusions... but it's getting hard not to.

Wed, 2011-01-19 12:36

#45

remind

Well....seeing as how many people have come here to babble complaining of glitches with listing events, I personally would land on the side of technical glitches, as opposed to obliquely accusing rabble of censorship of this event.

Wed, 2011-01-19 12:42

#46

Fidel

2dawall wrote:
To be in solidarity with Palestine while living in North America is to be buried alive with several layers of socially-constructed plexiglass.

I wonder why that is? I think there are those who simply don't realize that there is a colder war on. And then I think there are those who do realize its a colder war but don't care and are simply anti-NDP whatever the weather. Lots of options to choose from here.

remind wrote:
..., I personally would land on the side of technical glitches, as opposed to obliquely accusing rabble of censorship of this event.

Lots of options to choose from, for sure.

Wed, 2011-01-19 12:51

#47

genstrike

remind wrote:

Well....seeing as how many people have come here to babble complaining of glitches with listing events, I personally would land on the side of technical glitches, as opposed to obliquely accusing rabble of censorship of this event.

Well, I've sent a message to rabble using the "contact us" form and am awaiting a response. I'm hoping it's a technical glitch, but I can't help but get suspicious seeing how I've tried multiple times now and the events page seems to be working for so many other people, as evidenced by all the other events up.

Can anyone access the event? I seem to be able to when I'm logged in, but not when I'm logged out. Can other babblers see it? And it doesn't appear in the listings.

Wed, 2011-01-19 12:56

#48

kropotkin1951

Given Kim's views on Palestine I think your concern is misplaced.

Wed, 2011-01-19 13:03

#49

Fidel

I don't see it in past or current events. Are you sure you created an event? Did it preview okay? Did it just not give you any warnings or messages otherwise indicating that something was amiss?

Wed, 2011-01-19 14:44

#50

genstrike

No, no warnings or anything. I can see the event if I'm logged in and I go directly to it, but it seems like otherwise it's not appearing in the event listings and anyone else who tries gets "Access Denied"

Wed, 2011-01-19 14:59

#51

Fidel

And it does say that I need to be logged-in to access the page. I'm logged-in but not able to access.

Are you able to cancel or delete the event and try creating it again?

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