I agree entirly with what Sean in Ottawa has to say with the exception that even 15% support spread around the country can result in zip. Our FPTP system doesn't do well when support concentration is spread so thin.
Imagine if 2 million voters couldn't elect a single MP!
If over a million people can't get political representation, they should band together and get a legal team together and demand justice from the courts.
How many lawyers vote Green?
How many Supreme Court justices?
As long as the left vote isn't split, May should win.
Just have to ask, socialdemocracynow (your name suggests your political position), what, in your view, is "left" about the Green Party?
The last time I checked, the Green Party in Canada wasn't all that left of center. Why does this idea still persist? Is it because they are for the environment? Where would the Greens be put on a spectrum of Canadian Political Parties? Between the Libs and Cons I assume.
Wherever a Libertarian feels most comfortable.
GV, are you suggesting that the Greens are Libertarians in environmentalists clothing. Does not the Green platform seem antithetical to Libertarian ideology. Though, I think most Canadian political parties have little space for Libertarians.
GV, are you suggesting that the Greens are Libertarians in environmentalists clothing. Does not the Green platform seem antithetical to Libertarian ideology. Though, I think most Canadian political parties have little space for Libertarians.
I'm not "suggesting" anything, Ryan...I'm saying that some of the leadership of the Green Party (at all levels) are closet Libertarian, and like yourself, many of the membership do not understand how. It is having your cake (being "green") and eating it too (you play the market and call it a "green" tactic because you are forcing people to give up fossil fuels by pricing them out of reach).
I know a couple of these devious bastards.
This, of course, leaves the poor freezing as they walk in the dark.
I think the closest party to the Greens is the BQ.
You can't place either on a left right grid because neither is defined by left -right politics.
In the case of the BQ they are nationalist/separatist. Their core vote has for the most part been left of centre, the leader is, and Quebec itself is somewhat left of on many issues but the party is not by definition this at all. A new leader, a new direction and a new constituency and the party could end up somewhere else sounding like something else entirely.
The Greens are an environmental party. They also do not fit on the left-right grid by definition. The current leader we could try to place but even then there is a lot of debate as to where. The party is actually more volatile in this regard than the BQ since they are thinly spread out-- if a lot of right wingers came in and took over the leadership you would have a Libertarian sounding party, or a centrist on, or a left leaning one. I have argued that the Greens compete with the NDP on the left and therefore may often find it more comfortable trying to sound different reaching for distinctions from the NDP and as well may also be able to attract those interested in the environment who dislike the location of the NDP on the left-right continuum.
Every time it comes up and people try top locate either one of these parties (Green or BQ) on a left-right axis I come back and say they really should not try to do so even if the current leadership could be placed that way. The Greens in particular always have left-right splits as well as a large number of people who either do not understand or reject the notion of such a split.
I'll add that it is a lack of committment to a location on the left-right continuum that drives me away from considering them because I do see politics and social justice that way. For others, that might be an attraction.
By definition, a left-right continuum is unidimensional. Some of us see the world in more than one dimension.
Even if you see more than one dimension it does not mean you want to dispense with one
Another dimension if you like is establishent vs populist
I look at policy in 4 dimensions. I call them State, Markets, Utilitarianism, and Environmentalism. Most of the time they conflict, which is why we have politics.
GV, are you suggesting that the Greens are Libertarians in environmentalists clothing. Does not the Green platform seem antithetical to Libertarian ideology. Though, I think most Canadian political parties have little space for Libertarians.
I'm not "suggesting" anything, Ryan...I'm saying that some of the leadership of the Green Party (at all levels) are closet Libertarian, and like yourself, many of the membership do not understand how. It is having your cake (being "green") and eating it too (you play the market and call it a "green" tactic because you are forcing people to give up fossil fuels by pricing them out of reach).
I know a couple of these devious bastards.
This, of course, leaves the poor freezing as they walk in the dark.
At some point did I say I was a Green or have I taken your assertions too personally?
Libertarianism is a lot more popular than most people would like to think, especially in business and political circles.
The green party was left. They do seem libertarian, but I think they're moving towards third way and radical centrism.
The green party was left. They do seem libertarian, but I think they're moving towards third way and radical centrism.
They were not "left" when they centered their platform on pricing fossil fuels out of use through market manipulation.
If the Green Party now eschews this, they're moving...somewhere.
The green party was left. They do seem libertarian, but I think they're moving towards third way and radical centrism.
They were not "left" when they centered their platform on pricing fossil fuels out of use through market manipulation.
If the Green Party now eschews this, they're moving...somewhere.
The green party is pretty left to me, they're just not part of your conventional wisdom.
The green party was left. They do seem libertarian, but I think they're moving towards third way and radical centrism.
"Third way" isn't a bad way to describe the Greens. Unfortunately, it describes the NDP pretty aptly as well.
Yeah, the New Democratic Libertarians stick out like ...like...
Libertarianism is a lot more popular than most people would like to think, especially in business and political circles.
Ideologies that privilege selfishness and arrogance often DO have staying power, especially among people who see themselvs(as business types do)as the natural rulers of the Earth.
The green party was left. They do seem libertarian, but I think they're moving towards third way and radical centrism.
They were not "left" when they centered their platform on pricing fossil fuels out of use through market manipulation.
If the Green Party now eschews this, they're moving...somewhere.
The green party is pretty left to me, they're just not part of your conventional wisdom.
The green party is pretty left to me, they're just not part of your conventional wisdom.
The Green Party's policies seem fairly progressive. Maybe that's why most Green voters say their second choice is the NDP and, to a lesser extent, the Liberals.
quote: "The Green Party's policies seem fairly progressive."
If market solutions for climbing atmospheric carbon levels are okay, "fairly" progressive would be acceptable, for sure.
I'm not saying that others are particularly more "progressive," but "Green" should mean real solutions. No party is going to go out and propose a wartime command economy, least of all the "Greens". :)
George-- note the word "seem"
Sean - note the word "fairly." 
quote: "The Green Party's policies seem fairly progressive."
If market solutions for climbing atmospheric carbon levels are okay, "fairly" progressive would be acceptable, for sure.
I'm not saying that others are particularly more "progressive," but "Green" should mean real solutions. No party is going to go out and propose a wartime command economy, least of all the "Greens". :)
Socialism is not the answer to everything. Market based solutions are key at the moment. Green jobs are going up, more regulations will only discourage and plus there is no need for them right now.
Wow, May gets in print media again. That is twice in less than 2 weeks.
MPs are like "bags of testosterone," says Green Party Leader
Then a comment from the Green peanut gallery [and me].
May national media interviews are so rare now, that each one of them is occassion for a few deconstructive and or laudatory blogposts.
George-- I noted the word fairly and put together it was fair comment-- the Greens do seem fairly progressive at times.
That does not mean they are progressive or that they are very progressive.
They seem that way-- and indeed some of their canddiates actually are.
But thanks for helping make my point ;-)
Its like stepahnie meyers
http://ebv.blogspot.com/2008/05/stephenie-meyer-sucks-blood-out-of.html
"Charlie had really been fairly nice about the whole thing." Page 5.
Really?! Was Charlie really fairly nice? He had REALLY been fairly nice?! Are you sure? Thanks for emphasizing it for us.
And really, couldn't you have put "really" in a different place, Ms. Meyer? What about "Charlie really had been fairly nice" or "Charlie had been really fairly nice?" Why not? Put two adverbs in close proximity to each other, and you get into trouble... really, truly, you do.
Alright, enough grammar staking.
Sorry but I have a hate for twilight even if it gets tweens to read.
I surely really do.
Finally, Elizabeth May and the Green Party break through to get some headlines.
Elizabeth May's office destroyed after truck crashes through wall
These September posts were the most recent mention I could find in Babble for wht the Greens or May are doing.
There was also a thread I could not find for when somebody in the US named Elizabeth May one of the most notable [female?] politicians. Ironic.
I'm sure all the Green Party activists will be thrilled to hear that their hard-fundraised dollars were going to building renovations rather than voter contact.
Building renonvations, fer chrissakes! There's not even a category for that on Elections Canada returns. I can't wait to see how they account for it.
quote: "The Green Party's policies seem fairly progressive."
If market solutions for climbing atmospheric carbon levels are okay, "fairly" progressive would be acceptable, for sure.
I'm not saying that others are particularly more "progressive," but "Green" should mean real solutions. No party is going to go out and propose a wartime command economy, least of all the "Greens". :)
Socialism is not the answer to everything. Market based solutions are key at the moment. Green jobs are going up, more regulations will only discourage and plus there is no need for them right now.
I read in another thread recently that banker/economist/propagandist Don Drummond was a key speaker at the Greens' convention. I can't verify that, but if true, I can't imagine a more blatant demonstration of libertarians at work within, and the hand of Harris still firmly in control. Investment in green projects would be a major step forward in the transition from growth to command economy, but they are still depending simply on market solutions, which is madness.
I've thought for a long time that the Green party was destined to be road-kill in the next election. I had no idea that the metaphor would be so close to reality!!
Building renonvations, fer chrissakes! There's not even a category for that on Elections Canada returns. I can't wait to see how they account for it.
In light of yestrday's surprise visit, maybe they can file the expenses under 'Travel and Hospitality' ?
The party still has a second office in Saanich, located in a different area of the community.
*jaw drops*
Second office? Second office? I think we now know when an EDA has officially got too much money to spend.
Libertarianism is a lot more popular than most people would like to think, especially in business and political circles.
Ideologies that privilege selfishness and arrogance often DO have staying power, especially among people who see themselvs(as business types do)as the natural rulers of the Earth.
I have the handle I do because I like many of his insights into political power. Particularly his analysis of both the libertarian right and the Marxist left. The following quote is from Baldwin's book on his pamphlets.
Kropotkin regarded “individualist anarchism” of the school of Benjamin Tucker in America and Max Stirner in Germany, as hopelessly conservative, committed only to winning personal freedom without a revolutionary change in the economic system.
Peter Kropotkin
“Individualism, narrowly egotistic, is incapable of inspiring anybody. There is nothing great or gripping in it. Individuality can attain its supreme development only in the highest common social effort.”
The GPC advertises its latest opening.
I didn't know of a second office in Saanich. I thought there was another one on one of the islands... presumably Saltspring.
Either there are 3 offices, or as is often the case, the reporter got the story garbled.
Don't know but it might be as simple as they are running their on going campaign out of a smaller office and they were in the process of renovating a new larger and better suited campaign headquarters. I've often seen campaigns take a basically wide open empty space and "renovate" to make the areas required for phone banks, sign storage, offices and volunteer meetings. Not many places come election ready for a well run election with many volunteers.
Did you ever see painting a whole building that includes other tennants?
Not likely. But if you are running a campaign for a couple years, things like painting the building are different.
No they definitely had two campaign offices. The national party has been transfering $30,000/month to Saanich-Gulf Islands.
And they do have at least one other campaign office, we're not only talking about different buildings for the same HQ. That might be the reason for another office in Saanich. But more likely the reporter just got garbled where the other campaign office is.
Okay I will stop trying to be fair to the Green party. I will leave it up to a Green poster who actually understands what is going on to explain it to me. KenS the MSM piece was too vague for me to get any clear picture of the real circumstances. Do you have a link that contains all the details you seem to know?
The $30K a month comes from last year's EDA returns for the Green Party in SGI, and was written about in more detail at the democraticSpace blog. The other details come from various Green Party blogs and the comments thereon.
Gosh, imagine if "Ellie May" bites the dust even after she will have funneled and quasi-embezzled almost half a million dollars from her party to get herself elected. I'll leave it to Ken to do the calculations, but I get the impression that something like 60% of the Green Party's entire assets are being staked on Elizabeth May's personal ego trip to get elected to Parliament.
The posts that OO is talking about where Greg Morrow discusses the SGI campaign finances are linked in posts 10&15 of this thread.
There was also a series of 4 articles on the SGI campaign from October in Green Party Strategy, which I linked to and commented on here, but I dont know what thread that was. The articles covered the finances as well. Like everything else in the GPC, that site has gone dormant, so all 4 of the October articles are still linked on the home page.
I have experience in party finances- which is a completely different animal than finances for a campaign or riding association. And a hobby of picking over the data of all the parties. Going back over 2 years now, I noticed some VERY strange stuff in the GPC reporting. Until the last several months there was a very active Green blogosphere, and I talked about what I had seen there. Deconstructing with others the shell games the brain trust had played to hide or obscure how much money was spent in Central Nova and then SGI.
A lot of the discussion took place on Report on Greens. But that was more of an ongoing 'project,' so it is pretty scattered around.
Suffice to say that even if the election is soon, by the time it is over the GPC will have literally invested a million dollars in May's endless and heedlessly 'organized' campaigns. And that is not counting expenses like her salary, her aides salary, etc.
The GPC has an annual budget of about $2million- so the May campaign doesnt even approach 50%. But as with any organization, or even household- a lot of those expenses are very fixed. Discretionary spending does not amount to much.
The GPC laid off all its field organisers more than a year ago. And they cost less than the ongoing monthly expenses of the SGI campaign, before an election.
[And Greg Morrow discussing the SGI finances was in the blogpost linked to in post15 upthread.]
The GPC advertises its latest opening.
I think that was the official opening of their office. An open house, if you will ...
I was reading the Pundit's Guide earlier this week, and it looks like the Green Party has lost a number of candidates across the country, even in ridings like Guelph where they performed well in 2008.
The GPC advertises its latest opening.
I think that was the official opening of their office. An open house, if you will ...
Out-word-played, again. Tip of the hat, OO.
