Our logo is bigger now

What is meant by "my country" ?

22 posts / 0 new

Log in or register to post comments

Tue, 2011-02-15 22:10

#1

absentia

What is meant by "my country" ?

I've been having a desultory argument with some USians about draft-dodging.

One faction says it's every citizen's duty to serve his country, by doing what the government asks, whether he agrees with a particular war or not. The other faction says that an individual should refuse to participate in illegal or immoral actions, even if it means disobeying your government. That's one point of contention.

Recently in Egypt, and other places, even to a very small extent in Canada, we have seen people stand up to authority, disobey and oppose their governments. Yet none of these people are disloyal to their country.

There are many issues of contention, political, military and economic - but most interestingly, psychological and philosophical.

How do you define the country - or nation - to which you are loyal?

Tue, 2011-02-15 22:23

#2

Boom Boom

Boom Boom's picture

absentia wrote:
I've been having a desultory argument with some USians about draft-dodging.

I thought there hasn't been a draft in the US since the Viet Nam War. When did it start up?

Wed, 2011-02-16 06:39

#3

abnormal

Boom Boom wrote:

absentia wrote:
I've been having a desultory argument with some USians about draft-dodging.

I thought there hasn't been a draft in the US since the Viet Nam War. When did it start up?

Unless absentia is confusing "draft-dodging" with "desertion" they're discussing something that hasn't existed for decades.

Wed, 2011-02-16 10:30

#4

absentia

The guy came to Canada way back then. Some of his compatriots are still angry about it, while others think he did right. That's peripheral to my question; merely what began the thought process.

Desertion may be currently at issue in a Canadian context. So might refusal of a direct order, such as "Shoot into the crowd." or "Send that suspect to Syria for questioning." But i didn't mean to ask just soldiers; i meant activists, rebels, political factions and ordinary citizens.

Do you think of your country as a place, a people, an ideal, a government, a constitution, a history, a culture... or what?

Wed, 2011-02-16 10:53

#5

Le T

Le T's picture

My country doesn't exist. Countries are just constructions used by the elite to obscure the stratification of society by invoking patriotism. Countries oten lead to states, which are nothing more than organized violence used to protect the prvilege of the elite.

Wed, 2011-02-16 11:01

#6

NDPP

especially this one, which I think of as an illegal occupation.

Wed, 2011-02-16 11:43

#7

absentia

NDPP wrote:

especially this one, which I think of as an illegal occupation.

An illegal occupation of what? Territory rightly owned by whom? Is there, then, a nation to which you own alliegence? If so, that is your country.

Wed, 2011-02-16 11:48

#8

Le T

Le T's picture

I think that NDPP is refering to the illegal occupation of Indigenous territory. Owned by no one but the territory of the multitute of Indigenous communities across Turtle Island.

I don't understand the second part of your response, absentia. Are you telling us how we define "our country" or asking us?

Wed, 2011-02-16 12:00

#9

Boom Boom

Boom Boom's picture

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. (Samuel Johnson, 1775)

Wed, 2011-02-16 12:07

Le T

Le T's picture

"Conceit, arrogance and egotism are the essentials of patriotism. Let me illustrate. Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot consider themselves nobler, better, grander, more intelligent than those living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others.
The inhabitants of the other spots reason in like manner, of course, with the result that from early infancy the mind of the child is provided with blood-curdling stories about the Germans, the French, the Italians, Russians, etc. When the child has reached manhood he is thoroughly saturated with the belief that he is chosen by the Lord himself to defend his country against the attack or invasion of any foreigner. It is for that purpose that we are clamoring for a greater army and navy, more battleships and ammunition." (Emma Goldman, 1908)

And we could add to Emma's list, multi-billion dollar war planes.

Wed, 2011-02-16 13:47

absentia

I was asking, but evidently the wrong question, or one whose meaning is unclear.

Wed, 2011-02-16 14:13

Snert

Snert's picture

Goldman may have been correct about geography being a primary locus for allegiance and loyalty and a willingness to kill or die, but I think that these days religion or ideology are almost as likely. Look at the various "homegrown" terrorists here or in the U.S. -- they're clearly not motivated by their country.

To answer the question in the OP: I don't know if I'd say that I'm loyal to Canada or not. I've never been in a direct position of having to choose between a loyalty to Canada and consistency in my beliefs. I think Canada has done some good things, and I'll talk about those, but we've done some bad, stupid or shitty things too, and I'll talk about those as well.

Wed, 2011-02-16 22:45

Frmrsldr

A country is the land and the people.

A "country" cannot and therefore does not ask its people to "serve" one's country in time of war.

The state is the government of a peple.

States can and do start wars and ask or force the people to fight in them.

When a state does things that harm or are not in the best interest of the country, a true patriot clearly points out the errors of the state's ways, speaks out against them and does what s/he/they can to correct the state's errors.

Thu, 2011-02-17 09:20

Le T

Le T's picture

Quote:
Goldman may have been correct about geography being a primary locus for allegiance and loyalty and a willingness to kill or die, but I think that these days religion or ideology are almost as likely. Look at the various "homegrown" terrorists here or in the U.S. -- they're clearly not motivated by their country.

Put down the McLeans and look at the real world. There are very few "homegrown terrorists" and it is pretty unclear if they are as dangerous as we are told. On the other hand, there are a little less than 1.4 million soldiers in the US military and about 100 000 CFers if you count reserves. I think that it's pretty clear that the main motivation for murder is still patriotism and not religion and ideology as you and other neocons try to tell us.

Thu, 2011-02-17 11:48

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

M. Spector's picture

Snert wrote:

Look at the various "homegrown" terrorists here or in the U.S. -- they're clearly not motivated by their country.

If you're referring to the so-called Toronto 18, I seem to recall they were largely "motivated" by opposition to the war in Afghanistan. Is that unpatriotic?

Thu, 2011-02-17 16:08

George Victor

Religion had crept into the motivational mix. That's just dumb.

Thu, 2011-02-17 22:53

Frmrsldr

M. Spector wrote:

If you're referring to the so-called Toronto 18, I seem to recall they were largely "motivated" by opposition to the war in Afghanistan. Is that unpatriotic?

No, it's not:

Frmrsldr wrote:

States can and do start wars and ask or force the people to fight in them.

When a state does things that harm or are not in the best interest of the country, [an immoral, unjust and illegal war, for example] a true patriot clearly points out the errors of the state's ways, speaks out against them and does what s/he/they can to correct the state's errors.

Fri, 2011-02-18 19:18

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Snert wrote:

Look at the various "homegrown" terrorists here

Sure, let's take a close look at them. Where are they?

Fri, 2011-02-18 23:16

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

RevolutionPlease's picture

Stephen Harper grew up in Leaside, Toronto.

Fri, 2011-02-18 23:17

Fidel

I think I saw one run past my front window in black jam-jams last week. Or wait, maybe that was last October?

Sat, 2011-02-19 09:30

absentia

...and now Ford. TO has a lot to atone for.

Mon, 2011-02-21 10:38

Le T

Le T's picture

Make that Etobicoke