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Can Jack get the Cons to agree to eliminate Senior poverty (and more) or do we go to the polls?

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Fri, 2011-02-18 20:06

#1

duncan cameron

Can Jack get the Cons to agree to eliminate Senior poverty (and more) or do we go to the polls?

Both the Globe and Mail and the Nat Post are reporting that Jack Layton and Stephen Harper had "cordial" talks about what needs to be in the upcoming budget. The NDP have four points they want included. For me eliminating senior poverty by increasing the Guaranteed Income Supplement so that no senior falls below the poverty line is something worth voting for, even if it means postponing an election for a year. The other three are outlined by the Globe which of course leads with its anti-NDP bias.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/harper-and-layton-hold-cord...

The Nasty Post story is worse, and even less informative.

Layton is doing his best to make the story: the NDP wants the government to meet the needs of Canadians in the upcoming budget; and not, the NDP (and other opposition parties) want to force an unwelcome election (which is what Harper wants to put out).

With such a tiresome bunch of anti-NDP figures in the press and in the CBC, CTV, and Global newsrooms, it is a constant struggle just to be reported on at all. Layton manages to get coverage. As leader of the fourth party that takes some doing. It would be nice to see the NDP get a fair shake just once from the Globe or the CBC at least. Not in my lifetime apparently.

Fri, 2011-02-18 20:23

#2

NDPP

I just posted it actually and you're right, not much there. However, I will not be the only Canadian pretty pissed if once again the collaborating sellouts in the evil Ottawa talkshop decide to keep Harper et al in power because they reckon that their chances can only improve if they let him put the screws to Canadians a little bit longer and a little bit harder. Claims to have extracted 'concessions' will not veil their surrender. If that's the game, it's a dirty, cynical and fixed one as well.

Fri, 2011-02-18 20:36

#3

Life, the unive...

Layton has just had the NDP's main election planks get national coverage, for free, in the national media. That's a pretty good get. The word is the first item on the agenda was corporate tax cuts (Kady O'Malley tweet) so it is unlikely we are talkin about an election dodge. And if by some miracle Harper moved on senior poverty, for instance ,and curtailed corporate tax cuts it would be hard to argue that it would not be worth voting on the budget with an election in a year anyway.

Fri, 2011-02-18 20:57

#4

Buddy Kat

Win win for Harper and a big fat zero for Layton...Harper gets the senior vote as it is and Layton gets diddly as it is.... If he supports the budget the seniors say Harper good ..manipulated NDP hahaha.

If the NDP don't support it ..the seniors say "so what" ..vote for Harper anyways and pissed off NDPr's vote lib or don't vote at all cause they can't stomach Layton playing nice to Harper yet again .and doing the same thing they criticize the integrity less Libs of doing..which is attempting to prop up Harper yet again.

Oh well I guess the ndp will learn the hard way what happens when you play both ends against the middle...I would expect more Lib support now. Next poll cons down ..libs up ndp down.

Doesn't look like an election now...

Fri, 2011-02-18 21:03

#5

Lens Solution

NDPP wrote:

I just posted it actually and you're right, not much there. However, I will not be the only Canadian pretty pissed if once again the collaborating sellouts in the evil Ottawa talkshop decide to keep Harper et al in power because they reckon that their chances can only improve if they let him put the screws to Canadians a little bit longer and a little bit harder. Claims to have extracted 'concessions' will not veil their surrender. If that's the game, it's a dirty, cynical and fixed one as well.

Yes, to me the danger of these negotiations is that it often ends up leaving Harper in power for yet another year to cause more damage, and continue his autocratic behaviour.

Fri, 2011-02-18 21:05

#6

KenS

@BuddyKat

You dont get it at all.

Its not about focus on the senior vote.

Fri, 2011-02-18 21:06

#7

Life, the unive...

Lifting the many seniors living in poverty in this country out of that poverty is exactly the kind of thing I expect from the NDP regardless of the political calculations for themselves in the next election. But them I am a progressive, not an New Democrat so I look at results not false Liberal promises.

Fri, 2011-02-18 21:09

#8

KenS

Lens Solution wrote:

Yes, to me the danger of these negotiations is that it often ends up leaving Harper in power for yet another year to cause more damage, and continue his autocratic behaviour.

Careful of what you wish for. The reason Harper wants an election is because another year is not good enough [the end of which is not a good time for them]. And he can get that by going to an election, evenwithout a majority.

Fri, 2011-02-18 21:22

#9

duncan cameron

If Kady is saying Layton raised the issue of tax cuts to corporations with Harper, she is saying the opposite of the Globe and the Post. Both of them are trying to pretend he has "sold out" on cuts. In fact he has not made a big deal of it this time, the already approved corporate income tax (CIT) reduction is not that significant a number this year

Ending corporate tax breaks is important. Restoring capital taxes is important. Reducing the posted CIT rate (which because of loopholes they do not really pay) is not the most important step forward for social justice in the world, though it is the new Liberal line.

For Canadian well-being it is not as important as ending senior poverty through spending I would judge.

Personally, I think fair taxes is the way for the NDP to approach the corporate taxes question. Open the whole file not just one slice of it.

The Cons have trapped the Libs into supporting what they call a tax increase (its technically only cancelling a planned reduction). This gets the Libs in the Dion position of campaigning for tax increases, and more importantly allows the Cons to insert the anti-business, anti-jobs wedge. Harper wants to put the NDP and the Liberals in the same light:presenting ... "the anti-business, anti-jobs" couple.

Who has less legitimacy government, or corporations? Harper discredits government, and lines himself up next to corporations while hiding behind small business.

Layton is working to get attention to what Canadians need from their government. The media supply the anti-NDP propaganda, and the pro-corporation line. The Cons pay for the anti-Liberal stuff which seems to be working.

Note the Libs are off on a working families tour. Layton has to keep an eye on them as well. This meeting with Harper, where he is able to lay out his ideas to the public, albeit through a strong media filter, should help him on that score.

Fri, 2011-02-18 21:25

Lens Solution

KenS wrote:

Lens Solution wrote:

Yes, to me the danger of these negotiations is that it often ends up leaving Harper in power for yet another year to cause more damage, and continue his autocratic behaviour.

Careful of what you wish for. The reason Harper wants an election is because another year is not good enough [the end of which is not a good time for them]. And he can get that by going to an election, evenwithout a majority.

Another year is not good enough for what?

Fri, 2011-02-18 21:31

KenS

Because its only a year, and at the end of it is not a good time for them to go to an election.

Have an election now, and even with another minority they get another open ended probably a couple years and maybe more. And that isnt just longer to govern, it is more flexibility to pick your time for an election than they do not get if they just run out the clock on this mandate.

Fri, 2011-02-18 21:32

Life, the unive...

Duncan here is a link that might help. I was slightly off - Kady was noting that was the case, not tweeting it.

http://www.coveritlive.com/mobile.php/option=com_mobile/task=viewaltcast/altcast_code=3c84471d11

Either way it is clear that corporate tax cuts were obviously discussed. Maybe it is a function of age, but I have come to realize in my long in the tooth age that we can rarely expect to get everything we want in any part of life all at once. Life is not American Idol. Even Douglas had to compromise on medicare with grandfathering some private services, for instance and watering his wine to get the big picture through. Lifting impoverished seniors out of poverty is a big picture issue worth a bit of water.

Fri, 2011-02-18 21:32

duncan cameron

The seniors vote is important because the turnout rate is high. Do the Cons have it in their pocket?

How about the democracy file. Are seniors going to ignore what one man role is doing to the country?

Lower income seniors have been sold out by Harper on the CPP enhancement killed by the Cons. The NDP has two of its four points designed as policy improvements for seniors, and a third (family doctors) works for seniors as well. Even upper income seniors may remember the Cons as the party that killed the income trusts, since they have just been wound down.

Fri, 2011-02-18 21:36

KenS

An even simpler test:

If Harper wanted to avoid an election, negotiating with the NDP is the hard way. Because they would have to do a 180 on CPP. They went to a lot of work to scuttle CPP enhancements for the years to come.

If they wanted to avoid an election all they had to do was complete the deal fro the Quebec HST harmonization: something they want to do- no concessions required.

Fri, 2011-02-18 21:40

duncan cameron

LTU if we could get a strong anti-poverty programme approved by parliament it would be more important for those concerned than just about anything that could be done for all those not in need, outside maybe better access to healthcare or education.

Starting with seniors makes sense, and it sets a precedent.

I agree with you. Combating cynicism by showing governments can work for people may just be a beginning, but achieving something matters.

Fri, 2011-02-18 21:43

Lens Solution

Isn't there a risk of Harper being allowed to get away with autocratic behaviour even more in the future (eg. the Bev Oda situation) if he survives the budget?

There is a danger that it could be seen as condoning his behaviour if the NDP votes for the budget.

Fri, 2011-02-18 22:22

Fidel

The Harpers survived a number of budgets with Liberal Party support before. Canadians just want some action now without having to go to the polls. They want our minority government and the opposition parties to get to work not stonewall or delay or fight one another. And the shine is off prorogeys as far as the public is concerned.

What Canadians really want is a proportional voting system where parties work together to achieve results and demonstrate some accountability to voters according to opinion polls taken in [url=http://wilfday.blogspot.com/2011/01/poll-results-on-canadian-public-supp..., 2003, 2004, and 2010.[/url]

Fri, 2011-02-18 22:46

Buddy Kat

KenS wrote:

@BuddyKat

You dont get it at all.

Its not about focus on the senior vote.

It is if they are the only ones voting or the majority of voters…and that pretty well is the way it is right now.

Actually it’s looking worse with this new special voting id card being developed by the cons…I’ll bet the cons will be delivering them first to seniors and really have their votes rock solid…hell maybe they will even figure out a way to give them a perk…dogonnit I think they already did that…It’s called the “We got Layton by the short ones” perk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkM5eyN8ytI&feature=user

Fri, 2011-02-18 22:48

Sean in Ottawa

Buddy Kat and others let's have some facts on this.

NDP support among seniors is not zero-- it is low but not nothing. A breakdown from this month's Ekos provides some information.

This is the poll with the Cons at their peak 37.3 and the NDP very low 14.2.

Over 65: Cons 46.2 (still less than half) NDP 10.9.

Then look at regionals-- high margin of error but just the same-- Over 65 in BC -- Con 49% NDP 21%

I have seen the NDP much higher among seniors. Don't think they cannot be moved-- at least enough to make a difference.

Now let's look at direction of government-- 48.5 seniors said right direction 36% said wrong direction.

Then consider the sandwich generation -- Boomers younger than 65. These are the ones taking care of their parents. Consider for a moment that they also have an interest in senior poverty. More of them say wrong direction than right for government and the NDP support is close to its average for all ages.

Sat, 2011-02-19 00:09

ottawaobserver

NDP support amongst seniors in western Canada is actually significant ... at least in Manitoba and Saskatchewan and parts of BC.

The first act of the Barrett government in BC was to top up the provincial equivalent of the GIS for seniors. Ironically by the time the Harcourt government was elected, their first act had to be funding school lunch programs (shows how the face of poverty changed).

Anyway, the target might be partly seniors and partly their kids, but it also hits at who currently supports the Conservatives, so it's bound to get attention.

My takeaway from today is that: polls-shmolls, the Harper government now understands that the NDP is not cowering in the corner. Harper invited Layton into the meeting, and was amenable to the media finding out. They didn't do that last year, because they didn't think they had to. Point Layton.

Did you see the Liberals covered anywhere today? Me neither. Point Layton and Harper.

The national media can now recite all 4 of the NDP's demands at once (doubling the GIS, doubling the CPP, ending the HST/GST on home heating, helping Canadians who don't currently have a family doctor). Point Layton.

The national media all now have the chronology of the corporate tax cut votes emblazoned on their brains (i.e., the Liberals first proposed them, then voted for them once, and then abstained from another vote where they were extended, while the NDP was successful in getting the Liberals to put them on pause during the Martin era). Point Layton.

To the extent the media continue to play the NDP as being weak and desperate that's fine for now. It means Harper won't offer much, and the NDP is free to enter a campaign. Then we'll see how much of the Liberals' current bravado is real.

Sat, 2011-02-19 00:18

NorthReport

OO, you have outdone yourself tonite - fantastic analysis which is right on the money!

Sat, 2011-02-19 00:31

NDPP

NDP Takes Corporate Tax Cuts Off the Table

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ndp-takes-corporate-tax-cut...

"Mr Layton's finance critic, Montreal MP Thomas Mulcair, has repeatedly said the NDP caucus would have a hard time supporting a budget that fails to reverse plans for corporate tax cuts. Mr Layton's decision essentially overrides that view.."

Sat, 2011-02-19 00:47

Boom Boom

Boom Boom's picture

NDPP wrote:

NDP Takes Corporate Tax Cuts Off the Table

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ndp-takes-corporate-tax-cut...

"Mr Layton's finance critic, Montreal MP Thomas Mulcair, has repeatedly said the NDP caucus would have a hard time supporting a budget that fails to reverse plans for corporate tax cuts. Mr Layton's decision essentially overrides that view.."

You overlooked the part of the story that says the NDP gets from Harper:

- Removing the federal sales tax from home heating bills and restoring the EcoEnergy Retrofit program;

- Increasing the Guaranteed Income Supplement for low-income seniors;

- Expanding the Canada Pension Plan;

- Hiring more family doctors.

Pretty good, eh?

Sat, 2011-02-19 01:34

NDPP

Guess if you can't beat 'em you join 'em...

Sat, 2011-02-19 01:37

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

M. Spector's picture

The average Old Age Security pension is about $500 a month. The maximum Guaranteed Income Supplement is about $600 a month. That means the average OAS pensioner who has no other income can receive a maximum of $1,100 a month (=$13,200 a year).

The poverty line, or low-income cutoff (LICO), for a single person living in a major city in 2007 was $21,666, according to Statistics Canada.

Unless Stephen Harper can be persuaded to more than double the maximum GIS, it's ridiculous to talk about "eliminating senior poverty" through the GIS.

Sat, 2011-02-19 02:06

NorthReport

Buddy Kat watch out because one day you might be a senior too. Come on, play nice.

Sat, 2011-02-19 02:08

NorthReport

The Martians are coming! The Martians are coming!

Lens Solution wrote:

Isn't there a risk of Harper being allowed to get away with autocratic behaviour even more in the future (eg. the Bev Oda situation) if he survives the budget?

There is a danger that it could be seen as condoning his behaviour if the NDP votes for the budget.

Sat, 2011-02-19 03:00

Fidel

NDPP wrote:

Guess if you can't beat 'em you join 'em...

Or you could remain on the outside looking in, like dozens of other registered parties without any seats in Ottawa. Those parties will not be affecting progressive change for the better in this Northern Puerto Rico anytime soon.

So, how do you like our obsolete electoral system invented before electricity? Not much fun, you say? I agree.

Sat, 2011-02-19 09:23

Life, the unive...

NDPP wrote:

NDP Takes Corporate Tax Cuts Off the Table

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ndp-takes-corporate-tax-cut...

"Mr Layton's finance critic, Montreal MP Thomas Mulcair, has repeatedly said the NDP caucus would have a hard time supporting a budget that fails to reverse plans for corporate tax cuts. Mr Layton's decision essentially overrides that view.."

I know that reading can be hard - but there is a very big IF in there

Sat, 2011-02-19 09:44

ottawaobserver

The Dippers seem to really be enjoying toying with the press gallery at the moment. They've put on a really good show of will-they-or-won't-they, that the gallery is following every turn of.

Sat, 2011-02-19 11:22

Roscoe

Corporate tax cuts are an issue for big business because share prices, bonuses, promotions, dividends etc depend on the bottom line. For small business, its not much of an issue.

The real issue for business other than big corporations, is stable tax policy that enhances economic growth. Leaving these corporate tax cuts alone for now and addressing the issue in the near future when the economy improves won't matter much. A phased stable increase in corporate taxes is not an impediment to growth.

The government's disinclination to enhance the CPP and GIS is a betrayal of Canadians in favour of for-profit private pension providers whose only interest is in victimising their clients for profit. This government has thrown Canadians to the wolves because the ordinary Canadian doesn't have the financial literacy or the individual leverage to negotiate a decent plan.

The best solution for small business to attract the skills they need to grow is an enhanced CPP and a private pension option run by the large public pensions, not by for-profit providers. Canadians need to stand up and fight for a better plan. The CPP is the best vehicle for retirement security. A phased increase in both contribution levels and maximum annual limit will accomplish this. I'm in favour of a greater employer contribution ratio to CPP rather than increased corporate taxes but either way, it is affordable to well run businesses.

It may not sit well with some, but a small victory in forcing this government to revisit enhanced public pensions is a good step. The key to victory for the CPP isn't the benefits themselves but whether the PM assesses political gain from the concession or whether he wishes to force an election.

Sat, 2011-02-19 11:28

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

M. Spector's picture

Fidel wrote:

Or you could remain on the outside looking in, like dozens of other registered parties without any seats in Ottawa. Those parties will not be affecting progressive change for the better in this Northern Puerto Rico anytime soon.

So, how do you like our obsolete electoral system invented before electricity? Not much fun, you say? I agree.

Yeah, I guess the only possible way to affect (sic) progressive change is through our "obsolete electoral system". Those who don't participate in that travesty of democracy are just doomed to irrelevance, eh?

Sat, 2011-02-19 14:25

duncan cameron

I think Roscoe has hit the main point. Corporate income tax (CIT) is just one form of tax. So-called business payroll taxes used to fund U.I./E.I. and CPP are more important because the programmes they fund provide direct benefits to people.

The CFIB has done great harm to small business in Canada by misinformation campaigns around the value of public services for small business. Labour and the NDP have not figured out how to counter CFIB influence. The Cons use CFIB as shock troops.

How big a gap is there between the existing OAS/GIS and the poverty line? As Spector points out, for a single person without CPP or other income, it is huge. So much the better if the NDP can raise the profile around elderly single women in poverty by pushing the lift seniors out of poverty approach to the 2011 budget. The party needs to unveil an anti-poverty programme for parliament to adopt, and publicize it. It could garner significant support in civil society for such a programme.

Sat, 2011-02-19 14:55

duncan cameron

The Layton statement is here:

http://www.ndp.ca/press/statement-by-jack-layton-after-meeting-with-prim...

It could be stronger on senior poverty for sure.

To repeat Layton has not been talking about killing the further small reduction in the corporate income tax. The journalists raise that to make trouble for the NDP. The Liberals have made this an issue in the hopes of luring would be NDP voters.

Sat, 2011-02-19 15:15

duncan cameron

Andrew Jackson did a very informative post on senior poverty here:

http://www.progressive-economics.ca/2008/08/07/falling-poverty-among-the...

He estimates (using 2006 data) that it would cost $1 billion to eliminate senior poverty.Layton should be making that factually based argument.

Overall Canada looks not so bad on an int. comparison (beware of the numbers always). When you do a gender breakdown: senior poverty has declined among males, the rate for women was seven percent, which is higher. Andrew thinks that more seniors are working after age 65 which is pushing down the numbers. He also thinks the numbers will start to go up.

Sat, 2011-02-19 15:23

KenS

In saying "It could be stronger on senior poverty for sure." I presume you are referring to this from the press release:

** Helping our most vulnerable seniors with an affordable increase to their Guaranteed Income Supplement.

** Ensuring that Canadians can count on their pension when they need it - by strengthening the Canada Pension Plan.

In other words, it is not the langauage that the NDP has been using about looking for the doubling of CPP, etc.

But this is a press release about negotiations. If you are talking about negotiations it would look like the NDP is not serious if you give the programatic goals.

The message, in this case, is that the NDP is not asking for the sun and the moon. [In practice, looking for any CPP enhancement right now is the sun and the moon as far as Harper is concerned, because that would acknowledge enhancement needs to happen, and they have gone to great pains to stay away from even that much. But they could never admitt that.]

If Layton talked now about the ultimate goals of what strengthening CPP means, it would be easy for Harper to seize on that as something that cannot be done. And no one is looking for a steep increase in the first step, which is what is being discussed, and the current press release should reflect that.

Sat, 2011-02-19 16:12

Fidel

Yes, Jack is proposing reasonable goals for the do-nothing Harpers to achieve. The Harpers haven't achieved very much with Liberal Party support except for billions in corporate welfare handouts, rising national indebtedness to bankster friends of both parties, and second lowest per capita growth rates of 30 capitalist economies and only slightly better than the very corrupt Italy under Berlusconi and his fascist entourage.

Come on, herr Harper, do your job! There will be no perogey fests for lazy conservative MPs who don't want to show up for work this time around.

Sat, 2011-02-19 16:29

duncan cameron

Ken S I think the NDP has to help close the information gap. Talking about an "affordable" increase to the GIS is weak, when compared to saying that $1 billion would eliminate seniors poverty.

Why spend money on poverty reduction? Because governments can make a huge difference in peoples everyday lives. Compare the GIS pledge to the cost of the F35, or the running costs of the tough on crime stuff, which is in the billions per year.

Press releases are about what exactly? Are the NDP really negotiating with the Cons through press releases? I would have hoped the releases were used to educated the press about the state of Canada. I wish the party would release a research report on senior poverty to strengthen their negotiating position. The Cons and the Libs do no research and do want the people of Canada to know what is going on. The NDP should be filling the void.

Sat, 2011-02-19 16:52

Buddy Kat

NorthReport wrote:

Buddy Kat watch out because one day you might be a senior too. Come on, play nice.

Fact is were all going to be seniors one day...but first we must get rid of Harper and the conservatives then tackle the problems facing seniors....that's all. With Harper out of the way it should be smooth sailing for the NDP...so anything that extends his time as prime minister is bad..even publicity stunt deals...pack the guy (Harper) up already and send him to the Hague. First we must remove him from power....nice enough?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkM5eyN8ytI&feature=user

Sat, 2011-02-19 20:11

KenS

duncan cameron wrote:

Press releases are about what exactly? Are the NDP really negotiating with the Cons through press releases? I would have hoped the releases were used to educated the press about the state of Canada. I wish the party would release a research report on senior poverty to strengthen their negotiating position. The Cons and the Libs do no research and do want the people of Canada to know what is going on. The NDP should be filling the void.

Agreed on the last point. But the NDP needing to do more of this does not mean this is the time to do it.

During the campaign its not going to be "lets do some affordable increases to the GIS" and "we need to 'strengthen' the CPP". The narrative will be about needing to do something about senior poverty and income security, and this government will not do a thing- refuses to even make a start.

At the moment, it isnt a matter of negotiating through press releases. It is a matter of not handing your opponents with the stick to beat you with. The focus at the moment is on negotiations. It is naive to think that if the NDP talks in a press release about the end goal of doubling CPP in a press release, your opponents will treat it that way.

Sat, 2011-02-19 20:18

KenS

Buddy Kat wrote:

Fact is were all going to be seniors one day...but first we must get rid of Harper and the conservatives then tackle the problems facing seniors....that's all.

We will never pack Harper off with the support only of the people for whom that is the goal in itself.

And babblers see anything as a publicity stunt that does not take the most direct route to the jugular.

Sat, 2011-02-19 20:22

ottawaobserver

duncan cameron wrote:

Press releases are about what exactly? Are the NDP really negotiating with the Cons through press releases? I would have hoped the releases were used to educated the press about the state of Canada.

Press releases are about giving the media, who follow the stories more closely than many people here, the latest updates on the stories they're following. They're also about giving them quotes they can put right into their stories, which are now being filed on extremely short notice, right around the clock.

You might wish it wasn't so, but that's how things work now, Duncan.

duncan cameron wrote:

I wish the party would release a research report on senior poverty to strengthen their negotiating position. The Cons and the Libs do no research and do want the people of Canada to know what is going on. The NDP should be filling the void.

I wish academic researchers would help out with that kind of thing, instead of sitting back and giving the party communications advice.

Sat, 2011-02-19 21:23

NorthReport

Good research ahead of time, before you become part of the decision-making process is crucial so that when you acquire some power you hit the floor running just like the Right does. Believe me they have their ducks all in a row, they are on a mission, and I respect them for that. Once you have some power, it is too late for more research, you need to act immediately otherwise the reality is the right-wing press which is already angry that the left will have any say, will crucify you. The left is often too nice to get much done. Do you think Harper is nice? But do you think he gets things done!

What the left needs to do if it really wants to get support is start sticking up for the working peole in this country. Right now there is a threatened longshoremen's strike set for Vancouver. The issue is about removing the first aid people at the docks from being unionized. In retaliation the union should ask for the CEO's wages to be put on the negotiating table. That would put a quick stop to things. WE need to stand up to the folks that are too greedy and too powerful, and we need support from the politicians to do it.

Sat, 2011-02-19 22:11

Boom Boom

Boom Boom's picture

NorthReport wrote:
What the left needs to do if it really wants to get support is ....

Why do you say "left" when you mean NDP? Or is there another 'left' party somewhere you're also referring to?

ETA: as for 'left' voters, it seems to me that all along they've only had one choice federally: NDP.

Sat, 2011-02-19 23:01

Malcolm

Malcolm's picture

M. Spector wrote:

Yeah, I guess the only possible way to affect (sic) progressive change is through our "obsolete electoral system". Those who don't participate in that travesty of democracy are just doomed to irrelevance, eh?

Pretty much.

Buut they are still able to snipe from the sidelines, which is very, very important.

Sat, 2011-02-19 23:10

Fidel

A retired friend of the family went to visit his elderly mother in Dundee, Scotland a year ago. He tells me his mother has all kinds of money and pays no rent because she's a senior citizen. He says his mother has so much extra cash that she offers to give him some when he's there. And this is a reversal of fortunes for him, he says. When he came to Canada in the 1960s, the came looking for a better life and job opportunities. Now he says people in his old neighborhood in Scotland aren't poor anymore. Same in England with my older relatives. They seem to have money they didn't have decades ago. Free rent for seniors in council housing there, too.

Sat, 2011-02-19 23:13

Unionist

duncan cameron wrote:

I think the NDP has to... [...] I wish the party would... [...] The NDP should be ...

See duncan, I've extracted the only parts of your post that are visible to some people. They appear to imply that the NDP is imperfect, i.e., human.

Anyway, please carry on. Some of us are paying attention.

Sat, 2011-02-19 23:13

Malcolm

Malcolm's picture

duncan cameron wrote:

Press releases are about what exactly? Are the NDP really negotiating with the Cons through press releases? I would have hoped the releases were used to educated the press about the state of Canada.

Sigh.

Look, Duncan. I realize that this doesn't fit well with your conviction that the Liberals really are the progressive hope for Canada's future and that the NDP should always act in the best interests of the Liberal Party, but here's what you don't seem to be getting.

The news release is part of establishing a narrative - that the NDP has been reasonable and responsible in trying to make this Parliament work to get things done for Canadians.

Now, I'll agree that it would strengthen the narrative to refer to that $1B figure (I don't recall the provenance, but assuming it is credible).

But appearing to say "implement our policy exactly or else" does not fit with the narrative of "reasonable, responsible, trying to make Parliament work."

Sat, 2011-02-19 23:14

Unionist

Malcolm wrote:

Look, Duncan. I realize that this doesn't fit well with your conviction that the Liberals really are the progressive hope for Canada's future and that the NDP should always act in the best interests of the Liberal Party, but here's what you don't seem to be getting.

Gee. I guess I'm prophetic too.

Sat, 2011-02-19 23:29

Fidel

M. Spector wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Or you could remain on the outside looking in, like dozens of other registered parties without any seats in Ottawa. Those parties will not be affecting progressive change for the better in this Northern Puerto Rico anytime soon.

So, how do you like our obsolete electoral system invented before electricity? Not much fun, you say? I agree.

Yeah, I guess the only possible way to affect (sic) progressive change is through our "obsolete electoral system". Those who don't participate in that travesty of democracy are just doomed to irrelevance, eh?

Don't vote then. You'll more of the same guaranteed.

You get one day of protest every four years that actually counts for anything. Don't blow it. Don't let Mr or Mrs same old song and dance party speak for you on the one day that counts.

Sun, 2011-02-20 00:45

Lens Solution

Fidel wrote:

A retired friend of the family went to visit his elderly mother in Dundee, Scotland a year ago. He tells me his mother has all kinds of money and pays no rent because she's a senior citizen. He says his mother has so much extra cash that she offers to give him some when he's there. And this is a reversal of fortunes for him, he says. When he came to Canada in the 1960s, the came looking for a better life and job opportunities. Now he says people in his old neighborhood in Scotland aren't poor anymore. Same in England with my older relatives. They seem to have money they didn't have decades ago. Free rent for seniors in council housing there, too.

I'm surprised to hear that. I would have thought things would be rough for seniors in the UK these days considering the economic devastation that is sweeping the country and the massive amount of cuts that David Cameron is making.

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