For the guy with the red nose and oversized shoes:
[url=http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/media-consortium-blog/2011/02/showdown-m... in Madison: A primer for the Wisconsin protests[/url]
30,000 protest against public sector union busting in Wisconsin
Sun, 2011-02-20 02:40
#52
M. Spector
Sun, 2011-02-20 03:02
#53
Quote:
Canada and the US are free countries and nobody is forced to work anywhere where they are exploited. If public sector workers feel shortchanged, they are free to go work in the private sector. And we know that they will make lots of money because they are all rocket scientists, right?
People are not free to work somewhere they are not exploited... Yo brainiac, North America runs a Capitalist economy. How do you think the Capitalists make a profit, oh that's right they exploit the worker. Can't have it two ways, cant have a capitalist system and not have exploitation.
Sun, 2011-02-20 08:03
#54
People are not free to work somewhere they are not exploited... Yo brainiac, North America runs a Capitalist economy. How do you think the Capitalists make a profit, oh that's right they exploit the worker. Can't have it two ways, cant have a capitalist system and not have exploitation.
So, it is not possible to make a profit without exploiting workers? I am a tradesman and hire people to help me on bigger jobs and, yes, I make a profit on these jobs. No sense in doing these jobs if I did not make a profit on them. I will go broke under your business model.
According to your definition I am exploiting the people I hire.
Sun, 2011-02-20 08:06
#55
Yeah, god forbid the rebellious workers should want to rid themselves of the parasites who repeatedly screw them and sell them out to the interests of the bosses. They should be grateful for the Democratic Party. It's the best they can ever possibly hope for, right George?
They are not listening to your "answers" to their plight, MS - even if there were a means of getting your message out to them - so I I guess, for now, yep, that's the best available. Corrupt labour leaders and political leaders and all. You probably have a very neat,violent alternative plan in mind, but geez,MS, let it out. Folks have to eat in the meantime.
Sun, 2011-02-20 08:09
#56
People are not free to work somewhere they are not exploited... Yo brainiac, North America runs a Capitalist economy. How do you think the Capitalists make a profit, oh that's right they exploit the worker. Can't have it two ways, cant have a capitalist system and not have exploitation.
So, it is not possible to make a profit without exploiting workers? I am a tradesman and hire people to help me on bigger jobs and, yes, I make a profit on these jobs. No sense in doing these jobs if I did not make a profit on them. I will go broke under your business model.
According to your definition I am exploiting the people I hire.
What you are doing, in your limited fashion, is extrapolating your own situation to cover the work situation of all. Doesn't work that way, except in the minds of the very shallow.
Sun, 2011-02-20 08:29
#57
As far as "rich vs poor" goes, it is the public sector workers who are the rich ones with benefits and pensions paid for by the private sector workers who can only dream of such overly generous benefits and pensions. In effect, what we have here is a transfer of wealth from the poor (private sector) to the rich (public sector) and I am fundamentally opposed to it. I hope Rob Ford, in Toronto, stands up to the city unions.
It's one thing to have a hard bargaining position and quite another to refuse the right to bargain at all. That's what's happened in Wisconsin. Not just as an emergency measure either but forever.
Sun, 2011-02-20 08:42
#58
Gawd forbid workers from enjoying a decent living wage in return for their labour within multi-billion dollar profit industries. Better to blame the average citizen for profiteering than the stock market. Every gain acquired from the struggles of organized labour has been offset by market dictated inflationary pressures that are built into the system to recapitalize profit loss. And when inflation itself threatens profit margins because everyone not making a living wage is strung out on credit to the point of being unable to consume beyond subsistence, wholesale relocation of the manufacturing base to cheaper labour markets has become capital's latest survival technique. What remains behind is left to claw at one another in typical finger pointing exchanges, where ones fellow citizens and their families become scapegoats for trying to avoid having their standard of existence sacrificed and annihilated on the altar of capital, which of course can never be blamed for anything according to some.
Sun, 2011-02-20 10:27
#59
Right. Anybody who disagrees with the orthodoxy of this site is one goddam ignorant fella. Got it. If you say so.
That's not entirely true. To quote from babble policy:
As part of rabble.ca, babble was created to ensure that readers and participants could explore a wide range of issues of interest and concern in interactive and dynamic ways.
babble is NOT intended as a place where the basic and fundamental values of human rights, feminism, anti-racism and labour rights are to be debated or refought. Anyone who joins babble who indicates intentions to challenge these rights and principles may be seen as disruptive to the nature of the forum.
Georg-e, you are the poster child for the violation of this section of policy, and as such, are sent on your merry way.
Sun, 2011-02-20 10:33
#60
Why is this clown still here?
My apologies NR. I dealt with the issue as soon as I saw it. You guys really don't want me moderating on no sleep - it isn't pretty 
Sun, 2011-02-20 11:06
#61
Boom Boom
The Wisconsin Protesters Meet The Iron Fist of Koch Industries
excerpt:
The campaign to break the back of labor in Wisconsin by Republican governor Scott Walker is funded and supported in full by David Koch who is the de facto ruler in Wisconsin. Koch Industries has a heavy presence in the state and according to Koch Industries information page, there are at least 17 subsidiary companies operating in the state. Governor Walker has attempted to characterize the ban on collective bargaining as a necessary measure to control spending in keeping with the Republicans' smaller government meme, but his actions are a direct attack on labor at the direction of David Koch. Breaking the labor movement in Wisconsin is not the ultimate goal of the Koch brothers. Their goal is to break the labor movement in America once and for all.
excerpt:
The Koch brothers do not employ any union workers, and yet they are funding the war on organized labor, and by extension, on the government. The last bastion of freedom is organized labor and to think otherwise is a tragic mistake. Without organized labor, conservatives will take over the government and hand the country over to the Koch brothers and their corporate brotherhood. They have set out to destroy education and the middle class because the most dangerous weapon against oligarchy is an educated populace. Organized labor is a powerful lobbying group that fights for worker's rights and the middle class, and that is why Republicans are doing the bidding of corporations.
The battle in Wisconsin is more than just for unions or smaller government or budget deficits. It is even more than a battle for collective bargaining or workers' rights. It is a critical battle to decide if America remains a democracy or becomes an oligarchy owned and operated by Koch Industries. The Koch brothers may operate 17 different businesses in Wisconsin, but their goal is to set the standard for the rest of the nation to follow and they have fooled a fair amount of Americans into supporting their coup. Intelligent Americans will support the protesters because they understand the stakes are too high to be complacent. Hopefully, it will be enough.
Sun, 2011-02-20 11:49
#62
Boom Boom
Scott Walker Runs on Koch Money
excerpt:
Walker was elected just over three months ago on the heels of an exceptionally expensive gubernatorial race in the Badger State, fueled by groups funded by the Koch brothers, David and Charles. David Koch, the son of a radical founding member of the John Birch Society, which has long been obsessed with claims about socialism and advocated the repeal of civil rights laws, personally donated $1 million to the Republican Governors Association (RGA) in June of last year. This was the most he had ever personally given to that group. (Fellow billionaire Rupert Murdoch matched Koch's donation to the RGA with a $1 million donation from his company News Corporation, parent company of FOX "News" Channel.)
excerpt:
Some things are known, though. Koch money helped get Scott Walker the governor's seat in Wisconsin. And now a major Koch-related group is spearheading the defense of Walker's radical plan to kill public employees' right to organize in Wisconsin. The question is whether an actual majority of Wisconsin citizens want two of the richest men in the world, who do not live here -- and who, as Lee Fang has pointed out, have eliminated jobs in this state -- to be playing such an influential role in the rights of working people here.
Sun, 2011-02-20 15:14
#63
Public workers are under unrelenting assault in the U.S. Not only from Republicans, and some Democrats, but from the Murdoch press, the corporate media and plutocrats like the Kochs. The great thing about what's going on in Madison is that people are finally standing up and realizing that they have to do it themselves because Democratic elected officials, for the most part, won't do it for them. Especially the guy in the white house, who will do anything to avoid a fight on anything. And including the union movement, which has eschewed bold action in favor of behind the scenes compromise for scaps for far too long.
These are dark days, and there will be more of them ahead. But Wisconsin February 2011 may mark the turning point when the working people in the U.S., and their representatives, finally stood up and fought back after taking it on the chin for some 30 years
Sun, 2011-02-20 15:26
#64
Boom Boom
These are dark days, and there will be more of them ahead. But Wisconsin February 2011 may mark the turning point when the working people in the U.S., and their representatives, finally stood up and fought back after taking it on the chin for some 30 years
Excellent! 
Sun, 2011-02-20 15:38
#65
M. Spector
[url=http://www.alternet.org/news/149965/wisconsin_is_a_battleground_against_... Is a Battleground Against the Billionaire Kochs' Plan to Break Labor's Back[/url]
The fact is, [Governor] Walker is carrying out the wishes of his corporate master, David Koch, who calls the tune these days for Wisconsin Republicans. Walker is just one among many Wisconsin Republicans supported by Koch Industries -- run by David Koch and his brother, Charles -- and Americans For Prosperity, the astroturf group founded and funded by David Koch. The Koch brothers are hell-bent on destroying the labor movement once and for all.During his election campaign, Walker received the maximum $15,000 contribution from Koch Industries... and support worth untold hundreds of thousands from the Koch-funded astroturf group, Americans For Prosperity. ...
It's said that states are the laboratories of democracy, but [b]the Kochs are determined to make Wisconsin a laboratory of corporate oligarchy.[/b] Nationwide, the war on public workers -- and government in general -- is not simply a facet of an ideological notion about the virtues of small government. The war on government is a war against the labor movement, which has much higher rates of union membership in the public sector than it does in the private sector.
Labor is seen by corporate leaders as the last strong line of resistance against the wholesale takeover of government (and your tax dollars) by corporations. So, by this line of thought, labor must die.
But it's even deeper than that. The labor movement holds whatever modicum of workplace fairness standards exist for the rest of workers, be they organized or not. [b]Contracts won by organized workers function as a ceiling for what the rest of the workforce is able to demand. Without the labor movement, there's not a worker anywhere in the nation who has much of a bargaining position with her or his employer. And that's the way David Koch and his brother, Charles, want it.[/b]
Sun, 2011-02-20 21:45
#66
Mideast Meets Midwest: Joining the Surge Against Corrupt Elites - by Chris Floyd
http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/2090-...
"No president in history--not George Bush II, not George Bush I, not Richard Nixon--has been more servile to Big money than Barack Obama. Obama has not only made extraordinary efforts to shield Wall Street's criminal class from the slightest accountability for their vastly destructive atrocities, he has put that same criminal class in charge of his economic policy--and of his literally laughable regulatory 'reforms' as well..
Mon, 2011-02-21 00:34
#67
@ george e
Why do I care if you go out of business? If you staying in business means someone gets exploited then, by all means, I hope you go out of business.
Listen Ill make it very clear, If you are paying some one for their labour power and not their labour, then you are exploiting them. Can I make it more simple?
Or how about this, if you are extracting surplus value from a person, then you are exploiting them.
Mon, 2011-02-21 09:31
#68
And back in Wisconsin:
Op-Ed Columnist
Wisconsin Power Play
By PAUL KRUGMAN
What's happening in Madison isn't about the state budget.
In summary, Krugman says:
"So will the attack on unions succeed? I don't know. But anyone who cares about retaining government of the people by the people should hope that it doesn't."
Mon, 2011-02-21 10:23
#69
Boom Boom
trippie reminds me of this old canard:
What's the difference between socialism and capitalism?
Under capitalism one person exploits another person, and under socialism - the opposite.
Mon, 2011-02-21 10:33
#70
Boom Boom
And this one:
Socialism: You have two cows. The government takes one of your cows and gives it to your neighbor. You're both forced to join a cooperative where you have to teach your neighbor how to take care of his cow.
Capitalism: You have two cows. You lay one off, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows. You are surprised when she drops dead.
Communism: You have two cows. The government seizes both and provides you with milk. You wait in line for you share of the milk, but it's so long that the milk is sour by the time you get it.
and, of course, Surrealism: You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.
Mon, 2011-02-21 10:41
#71
Boom Boom
Reading trippie's use of proletariat and bourgeoisie I am also reminded of this one:
Q: How many running-dog lackeys of the bourgeoisie does it take to change a light bulb?
A: None, that's the proletariat's work!
and this one:
Q: How many running-dog lackeys of the bourgeoisie does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Two. One to exploit the proletariat, and one to control the means of production!
Mon, 2011-02-21 11:31
#72
Malcolm
Q: How many babblers does it take to change a light bulb.
A; One to demand that General Electric be nationalized, one to claim that the Liberals would never have let the light bulb burn out and one to claim the damned thing wouldn't have needed changing in the first place if Tommy Douglas were still party leader.
Mon, 2011-02-21 11:36
#73
This really belongs in the other forum, M. Or it should be more inclusive of the varieties that inhabit American political life.
Hear that one about the guy scratching his head and commenting: "My follicles are itchier than Sarah Palin's trigger finger."
Mon, 2011-02-21 11:50
#74
Socialism: You have two cows. The government takes one of your cows and gives it to your neighbor.
That's obviously from a yanqui site. I saw another version of this: Socialism - you have two cows; you give one to your neighbour.
As I recall, "classical" capitalism was the ideal in the gag.
Mon, 2011-02-21 14:20
#75
@ Boom Boom
You need to keep writing, your total ignorance of the subject is amusing.
All those things you attribute to Socialism and Communism have nothing to do with either. Stop listening to Rush Limbaugh, it will do you a world of good.
Mon, 2011-02-21 14:25
#76
Catchfire
trippie, Boom Boom and Malcolm, please keep this thread on topic and stop insulting other babblers. This thread is about the public sector workers of Wisconsin.
Mon, 2011-02-21 17:43
#77
Boom Boom
Speaking of which, CNN just interviewed a restaurant employee (maybe the owner) who said so far over 1,000 20-inch pizzas have been paid for by donations around the world and delivered to the strikers. They had so many orders at one point they had to take the phone off the hook!
ETA: The Governor is to make a statement in less than an hour - will be broadcast by CNN.
Mon, 2011-02-21 19:09
#78
Malcolm
Catchfire, there's a difference between satire and insult.
Apparently yesterday's competing protests had about 80,000 people in support of the unions and fewer than 5,000 in support of the governor, yet somehow the FauxNews story was about the "thousands" who came out to support the governor.
I hope abnormal now grasps why the Dems' boycott is a more productive tactic than Pyrrhicly turning up to lose.
Mon, 2011-02-21 19:14
#79
Boom Boom
Gov. Walker is not backing down - demos in Wisconsin will continue; more will show up in anger at the Gov's statement.
Tomorrow: protests in Ohio - Ohio Gov was just on CNN saying the state has to cut public sector costs.
Mon, 2011-02-21 19:27
#80
I hope abnormal now grasps why the Dems' boycott is a more productive tactic than Pyrrhicly turning up to lose.
My understanding is that the State Constitution only requires a simple majority for anything that's not a budget issue. That means that appointments as well as laws and regulations don't require the Democrats to be present. It'll be interesting to see how much of a session's business can be done in a few days when the Democrats aren't there. If the Democrats wish to effectively abstain from voting that's their choice.
Mon, 2011-02-21 20:09
#81
Malcolm
There are 19 Republican Senators.
The Senate quorum is 20.
Meaning that 19 Republican Senators on their own cannot conduct any business at all without at least one Democrat present.
If one Democrat turns up, the Senate has quorum and passes the legislation.
With no Democrats present (I understand they are in hiding in Illinois), the Republicans can do nothing.
Tue, 2011-02-22 00:16
#82
Catchfire
Want to show some solidarity? Get extra pepperoni.
f you are here to learn how help feed the protesters in Madison, here's how you can do that:Call us at 608-257-9248, then press 1. As we have just three phone lines it may take a while to get through, and we apologize in advance for that.
For online ordering we have partnered with both badgerbites.com and campusfood.com to process our online orders. If you would like to order online, please put 115 State Street as the delivery address, and add in the notes that you would like to help feed the protesters.
(via Michelle's fb wall)
Tue, 2011-02-22 00:22
#83
There are 19 Republican Senators.
The Senate quorum is 20.
Meaning that 19 Republican Senators on their own cannot conduct any business at all without at least one Democrat present.
If one Democrat turns up, the Senate has quorum and passes the legislation.
With no Democrats present (I understand they are in hiding in Illinois), the Republicans can do nothing.
Not correct. The Republicans can vote on anything not involving finances. Only finance bills like the budget require the quorum of 20. The reports do state the Republicans were going to vote in a bunch of other bills, rules, regulations etc that they are allowed to without the democrats
Tue, 2011-02-22 00:22
#84
Boom Boom
CNN interviewed that place today, someone said last night they so booked for pizza that they had to take the phones off the hook. But apparently they're taking orders again.
Tue, 2011-02-22 00:58
#85
Malcolm
So you'd like the Dems to come back so the Republicans can pass the budget?
Any other bills the Republicans pass, they'd have been able to pass regardless. But by absenting themselves, the Dems have effectively stopped te Republicans from passing the keystone of their union-busting campaign.
Personally, I think that's pretty smart politics.
It would appear some of you want to see the anti-union budget pass.
Tue, 2011-02-22 06:40
#86
Boom Boom
Malcolm who is your post addressed to?
Tue, 2011-02-22 07:05
#87
There are 19 Republican Senators.
The Senate quorum is 20.
Meaning that 19 Republican Senators on their own cannot conduct any business at all without at least one Democrat present.
If one Democrat turns up, the Senate has quorum and passes the legislation.
With no Democrats present (I understand they are in hiding in Illinois), the Republicans can do nothing.
Not correct. The Republicans can vote on anything not involving finances. Only finance bills like the budget require the quorum of 20. The reports do state the Republicans were going to vote in a bunch of other bills, rules, regulations etc that they are allowed to without the democrats
That bears repeating - the requirement for a quorum only applies to budget related matters. All other matters only require a simple majority of those present.
Tue, 2011-02-22 07:59
#88
Maysie
Just throwing this out as a radical idea, and I know nothing about who the 19 Republican senators are, but what if one or two defected and refused to go along with this farce of so-called "democracy"?
Imagine.
Tue, 2011-02-22 12:26
#89
Bec.De.Corbin
On a small, but interesting, side note I just learned in the mid 1800s an Illinois state legislation once jumped out of a window of the senate chamber building to avoid voting... his name was Abraham Lincoln.
@ Maysie; nice thought but I think this is forcing everyone into their political party trenches... I don't think there are any independents in that senate. If there were you could bet both parties would be beating down their doors.
Tue, 2011-02-22 12:33
#90
BDC: "On a small, but interesting, side note I just learned in the mid 1800s an Illinois state legislation once jumped out of a window of the senate chamber building to avoid voting... his name was Abraham Lincoln."
Amazin's, BDC. Makes Krugman's thought even more apt: "So will the attack on unions succeed? I don't know. But anyone who cares about retaining government of the people by the people should hope that it doesn't."
Tue, 2011-02-22 14:19
#91
Boom Boom
Fighting the 5 Fascisms in Wisconsin and Ohio
excerpt:
The escalating confrontations in Wisconsin and Ohio are ultimately about preventing the United States from becoming a full-on fascist state.
excerpt:
The entire economic crisis now gripping the United States can be directly traced to the military budget, which exceeds the sum of what's being spent by all other nations combined.
In a brilliant recent column, Robert Greenwald points out that the entire alleged shortfall in Wisconsin could be covered by bringing just 180 troops home from Afghanistan.
Tue, 2011-02-22 14:36
#92
Yes, sadly, what is going on is symptomatic of a full fledged descent into fascism.
Tue, 2011-02-22 14:49
#93
Tue, 2011-02-22 15:13
#94
Just throwing this out as a radical idea, and I know nothing about who the 19 Republican senators are, but what if one or two defected and refused to go along with this farce of so-called "democracy"? Imagine.
I'm just trying to imagine John Boehner swearing off tanning beds for awhile, let alone extending the hypothetical into the make believe.
Tue, 2011-02-22 15:27
#95
The public strongly opposes laws taking away the collective bargaining power of public employee unions as a way to ease state financial troubles, according to a new USA TODAY/Gallup Poll.
The poll found that 61% would oppose a law in their state similar to one being considered in Wisconsin, compared with 33% who would favor such a law.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-22-poll-public-unions-wiscon...
Tue, 2011-02-22 16:04
#96
Boom Boom
From a friend:
The Koch Clause: The Huffington Post's Amanda Terkel reports: While there has been significant attention devoted to the fact that Walker's 144-page budget repair bill would strip away collective bargaining rights for public employees, the site "Rortybomb" points out a less noticed provision that would allow the state to sell or contract out any state-owned energy asset in no-bid deals with private corporations.
From the legislation:
16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state-owned heating, cooling, and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state-owned heating, cooling, and power plant o...r may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification of a project under s. 196.49 (3) (b).
Tue, 2011-02-22 18:47
#97
Malcolm
Sigh.
Let me try to explain this with short words and see if that helps.
19 Republicans.
14 Democrats.
Quorum 20.
Dems there / not there not matter. Repubs always win votes.
Dems not there, no vote on union-busting budget.
Dems there, union-busting budget passes.
IOW, if the Dems go back, they still lose all the other votes, PLUS they lose the budget vote.
Now, can someone please explain to me why they want the Dems to go back? All it accomplishes is to pass the union busting budget.
Tue, 2011-02-22 19:06
#98
Yer a patient fella Malcolm.....PLUS, the Dems not being there emphasizes their position. They should stay in Ohio, or wherever.
Tue, 2011-02-22 19:12
#99
Well they cant do it forever, especially since after a set period of time it can be ruled that they have abandoned their seats and the governor gets to appoint someone to serve the balance of their term. Any takers as to how many dems would be appointed then?
Tue, 2011-02-22 20:16
#100
M. Spector
Typical social democrats.
Tens of thousands of workers are marching in the streets and all you can talk about is counting votes in the legislature!
Tue, 2011-02-22 20:54
#101
Typical big-brush bullshit.