Roger Waters calls for no more bricks in the (West Bank) wall

69 posts / 0 new

Wed, 2011-03-16 13:25

quantum

Lard Tunderin Jeezus wrote:

quantum wrote:
Before the fence was built, premeditated acts of horror were perpetrated within Israel regularly. In 2002 alone, some 189 Israelis were massacred in 53 terror attacks. As the fence kept expanding, hostilities declined, until in 2009 they stood at zero. So these are the numbers. My conclusions, which are only premised on the data presented above, are simple: With a fence in place, there are no massacres. Without a fence, hundreds of civilians are massacred.

Allow me to be generous and assume you are not a troll, but rather, ignorant of the facts.

The Wall that you defend represents a massive theft of Palestinian farmlands (some of the best), and more importantly, the majority of water resources in a desert land. It is group punishment and continuous torture of the Palestinians trapped in this arid detention camp.

To call it apartheid actually minimizes its horror, as no Bantustan was so sterile and unforgiving.

OK, so based on your response, the assertion in the article ( btw the quote that you attribute to me is actually a quote from the article) that the wall was constructed to protect Isarelis from terrorist attacks is not worth addressing. Maybe it's made-up or propaganda. Maybe the Wall hasn't reduced attacks. I don't know. Just askin. Seemed to me Smithee didn't want to address the point in the article and went off in a tangential rant instead

Wed, 2011-03-16 13:30

#53

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

quantum wrote:

Lard Tunderin Jeezus wrote:

quantum wrote:
Before the fence was built, premeditated acts of horror were perpetrated within Israel regularly. In 2002 alone, some 189 Israelis were massacred in 53 terror attacks. As the fence kept expanding, hostilities declined, until in 2009 they stood at zero. So these are the numbers. My conclusions, which are only premised on the data presented above, are simple: With a fence in place, there are no massacres. Without a fence, hundreds of civilians are massacred.

Allow me to be generous and assume you are not a troll, but rather, ignorant of the facts.

The Wall that you defend represents a massive theft of Palestinian farmlands (some of the best), and more importantly, the majority of water resources in a desert land. It is group punishment and continuous torture of the Palestinians trapped in this arid detention camp.

To call it apartheid actually minimizes its horror, as no Bantustan was so sterile and unforgiving.

OK, so based on your response, the assertion in the article ( btw the quote that you attribute to me is actually a quote from the article) that the wall was constructed to protect Isarelis from terrorist attacks is not worth addressing. Maybe it's made-up or propaganda. Maybe the Wall hasn't reduced attacks. I don't know. Just askin. Seemed to me Smithee didn't want to address the point in the article and went off in a tangential rant instead

Wow,making the observation that going after everyone of a particular colour or religion for the actions of a couple is a tangential rant.

When you can't win an arguement or your defense has been squashed,do like all Conservatives..Try to tar and feather the messenger.

Wed, 2011-03-16 13:51

#54

quantum

alan smithee wrote:

0000

Wow,making the observation that going after everyone of a particular colour or religion for the actions of a couple is a tangential rant.

When you can't win an arguement or your defense has been squashed,do like all Conservatives..Try to tar and feather the messenger.

Well we are talking at cross purposes. (" can't win an argument"..calling me conservative)

Back on point, I thought the paragraph claiming that the Wall has reduced attacks on Israelis citizens needed a response. Apparently not.

Wed, 2011-03-16 14:36

#55

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Sorry Quantum you seem to have gotten your kill ratios wrong. The Palestinians are the ones far more likely to be murdered by their neighbours the Israelis. Violence begets violence and the Israelis have proven they have far less concern for civilian deaths than even the "terrorists." The violence has to stop and it seems the side that is committing the most violence should just stop and see if maybe peace breaks out.

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/casualties.asp

Wed, 2011-03-16 15:32

#56

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

And once you've considered the seventeen-to-one ratio of murdered Palestinians to Israelis, perhaps you can tell us your approved ratio for saving lives by imprisoning innocents.

It seems to me that your ratio sits at about 63 thousand-to-one. You are willing to have 63,000 Palestinians be walled in forever (regardless of their individual innocence) for each precious Israeli life you wish to save.

Wed, 2011-03-16 15:56

#57

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

A little more education for you, Quantum: The Meaning of Rachel Corrie

[quote]Born and brought up in Olympia, a small city 60 miles south of Seattle, she had joined the International Solidarity Movement and gone to Gaza to stand with suffering human beings with whom she had never had any contact before. Her letters back to her family are truly remarkable documents of her ordinary humanity that make for very difficult and moving reading, especially when she describes the kindness and concern showed her by all the Palestinians she encounters who clearly welcome her as one of their own, because she lives with them exactly as they do, sharing their lives and worries, as well as the horrors of the Israeli occupation and its terrible effects on even the smallest child. She understands the fate of refugees, and what she calls the Israeli government's insidious attempt at a kind of genocide by making it almost impossible for this particular group of people to survive. So moving is her solidarity that it inspires an Israeli reservist named Danny who has refused service to write her and tell her, "You are doing a good thing. I thank you for it."

Wed, 2011-03-16 16:11

#58

Catchfire

Oh, and moving to Humanities & Culture

Wed, 2011-03-16 16:19

#59

Doughnut

Northern Shoveler wrote:

Sorry Quantum you seem to have gotten your kill ratios wrong. The Palestinians are the ones far more likely to be murdered by their neighbours the Israelis. Violence begets violence and the Israelis have proven they have far less concern for civilian deaths than even the "terrorists." The violence has to stop and it seems the side that is committing the most violence should just stop and see if maybe peace breaks out.

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/casualties.asp

Do you think those stats take into account the family murdered in Itamar last week?

Wed, 2011-03-16 16:34

#60

Kankaala12

Northern Shoveler wrote:

Sorry Quantum you seem to have gotten your kill ratios wrong. The Palestinians are the ones far more likely to be murdered by their neighbours the Israelis. Violence begets violence and the Israelis have proven they have far less concern for civilian deaths than even the "terrorists." The violence has to stop and it seems the side that is committing the most violence should just stop and see if maybe peace breaks out.

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/casualties.asp

Hey Doughnut...this website paints a more accurate picture:

www.thereligionofpeace.com

Wed, 2011-03-16 16:43

#61

politicalnick

While everyone seems to be interested only in a pissing match about who done what to whom the most, more people from both sides are killing and others are dying. Until we can all accept that blame lies on both sides for horrible actions no progress will be made.

Wed, 2011-03-16 16:47

#62

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Doughnut wrote:

Do you think those stats take into account the family murdered in Itamar last week?

No, why?

Do you think not updating the statistics on their site within 48 hrs is an indication of anti-semitism?

Wed, 2011-03-16 16:50

#63

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

politicalnick wrote:

While everyone seems to be interested only in a pissing match about who done what to whom the most, more people from both sides are killing and others are dying. Until we can all accept that blame lies on both sides for horrible actions no progress will be made.

Bullshit.

One side has all the power, and is the oppressor. To blame the victim for resistance is a total failure of logic.

Wed, 2011-03-16 16:55

#64

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

SHALOM.

Wed, 2011-03-16 17:43

#65

politicalnick

Lard Tunderin Jeezus wrote:

politicalnick wrote:

While everyone seems to be interested only in a pissing match about who done what to whom the most, more people from both sides are killing and others are dying. Until we can all accept that blame lies on both sides for horrible actions no progress will be made.

Bullshit.

One side has all the power, and is the oppressor. To blame the victim for resistance is a total failure of logic.

I am continually astounded by the readiness of others to make assumptions and leap over logical inferences to their own end. I in no way said anything about oppressor or victim being right or wrong in their cause. I simply said both sides have done reprehensible things that have no positive effect on bringing change. I don't blame anyone for resisting oppression anywhere. I do however think that the killing of innocent parties is wrong no matter who does it for whatever cause. This continued cycle of violence will never lead to peace.

If you wish to live by the motto 'an eye for an eye' it doesn't take long for everyone to be blind.

Wed, 2011-03-16 17:46

#66

Catchfire

Kankaala is gone.

Wed, 2011-03-16 17:47

#67

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Thank you, Catchfire!

Wed, 2011-03-16 18:04

#68

Ken Burch

He probably joined JUST to post that.

Thu, 2011-03-17 10:52

#69

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Yes, Catchfire, thanks for that.

The link posted by Kankaala repeats the story that in Gaza, there were celebrations and people handing out candy after this horrendous murder. But I have yet to find a photo or clip that corroborates this claim.

If it is true, it is clearly disgusting behaviour, but the more I think about it the more it sounds like propaganda meant to inflame, like the false story of Iraqis tossing babies out of incubators.

Roger Waters calls for no more bricks in the (West Bank) wall

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