Libya IV

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Thu, 2011-03-17 21:13

Frmrsldr

Papal Bull wrote:

I don't think Fidel said it. He is comparing Gadaffi to a legitimate democratic government that had a militarist putsch that initially failed and dragged out into a civil war that acted as the first stage of WW2.

For this analogy to work the rebels would have to be identifiable as reactionary insurgents and in control of parts of the government. This is not an apt analogy and is frankly quite disgusting. Regardless of the international anticipating for another orgy of bombs falling on civilian sites - like the Spanish Civil War - one cannot draw paradigms between the political programs of 2011 Libya and 1930s Spain.

That is some shameful rhetoric. Fidel, you sir, are engaged in mindless shock rhetoric to defend a poor point. Gadaffi may have been some anti-imperialist hero. 40 years of power turns all men into tyrants and crooks.

As for the no-fly zone, well, it is being instituted - let us hope that the collateral damage is not too widespread. What happens now will simply happen. Accusing other leftists of grevious transgressions against The Orthodox Thought is counter-productive and won't move any discussion forward. I can understand why al-Jazeera (that mouth piece of American propoganda) is showing images of the people of Benghazi celebrating this international action - for them it will mean protection and survival in the short term - it means destruction in Libya in the long term.

No, no, Papal Bull,

What Fidel is saying is that the Libyan People are asking for support, just like the Spanish Libertarias were asking for support.

The Spanish Libertarias wanted support from the people of the U.S.S.R. (they got that until the end of 1938) and Britain and France. What they got was bombing from the Luftwaffe (Nazi German Air Force) and Regia Aeronautica d'Italia (Fascist Italy Air Force.)

The Libyan People want support from Liberated People (Libertarias) around the world.

What they're gonna get is a U.N. mandated U.S./E.U./NATO enforced no-fly zone and air-to-ground war.

SOMETHING THE (LIBYAN) PEOPLE DO NOT WANT!!!!!!

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:14

#103

West Coast Greeny

NDPP wrote:

Al Jazeera's screen crawler is reporting that "CANADA IS SENDING WARPLANES TO HELP ENFORCE THE NO FLY ZONE"

Here's what the Angry Arab News, a very knowledgeable commentator said earlier:

Libyan Opposition:

"The Libyan people have been betrayed. Their revolution against the Libyan tyrant has been hijacked by the US and Saudi Arabia. That lousy henchman for Qhadhafi, Mustafa-Abd-Al-Jalil, is now a Saudi stooge who hijacked the uprising on behalf of a foreign agenda. I mean, what do you expect from a man who until the other day held the position of Minister of Justice in Qadhafi's regime, for potato's sake. And don't you like it when Western media constantly refers to him as 'the respected Libyan minister of Justice'. Respected by who? By Western governments?

http://angryarab.net/2011/03/17/libyan-opposition/

With respect,

- The UN, Egypt and Qatar is not "The West"

- I don't care how many of them are revolting, the Libyans don't stand a damn chance when they are getting shelled from the sky

- Jalil IS respected, by the Libyan people who selected him as head of the Transitional National Council, and even by Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International.

Amnesty International (August 2010) wrote:
The Minister of Justice has taken a very good stance on this group of prisoners. He’s publicly criticized the security agencies for continuing to detain prisoners, despite the fact that they have been acquitted by the courts. And, the problem really is that the Internal Security Agency and the Ministry of Interior have been ignoring court orders.

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:16

#104

Frmrsldr

M. Spector wrote:

[url=http://archive.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=13&t=0021... the Iraqis[/url] whether things are [url=http://archive.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=0015... now[/url] than they were [url=http://archive.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=13&t=0016... Saddam[/url].

Yes!

And the Afghans whether they are better off now than under the Taliban government.

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:17

#105

West Coast Greeny

Frmrsldr wrote:

Papal Bull wrote:

I don't think Fidel said it. He is comparing Gadaffi to a legitimate democratic government that had a militarist putsch that initially failed and dragged out into a civil war that acted as the first stage of WW2.

For this analogy to work the rebels would have to be identifiable as reactionary insurgents and in control of parts of the government. This is not an apt analogy and is frankly quite disgusting. Regardless of the international anticipating for another orgy of bombs falling on civilian sites - like the Spanish Civil War - one cannot draw paradigms between the political programs of 2011 Libya and 1930s Spain.

That is some shameful rhetoric. Fidel, you sir, are engaged in mindless shock rhetoric to defend a poor point. Gadaffi may have been some anti-imperialist hero. 40 years of power turns all men into tyrants and crooks.

As for the no-fly zone, well, it is being instituted - let us hope that the collateral damage is not too widespread. What happens now will simply happen. Accusing other leftists of grevious transgressions against The Orthodox Thought is counter-productive and won't move any discussion forward. I can understand why al-Jazeera (that mouth piece of American propoganda) is showing images of the people of Benghazi celebrating this international action - for them it will mean protection and survival in the short term - it means destruction in Libya in the long term.

No, no, Papal Bull,

What Fidel is saying is that the Libyan People are asking for support, just like the Spanish Libertarias were asking for support.

The Spanish Libertarias wanted support from the people of the U.S.S.R. (they got that until the end of 1938) and Britain and France. What they got was bombing from the Luftwaffe (Nazi German Air Force) and Regia Aeronautica d'Italia (Fascist Italy Air Force.)

The Libyan People want support from Liberated People (Libertarias) around the world.

What they're gonna get is a U.N. mandated U.S./E.U./NATO enforced no-fly zone and air-to-ground war.

SOMETHING THE (LIBYAN) PEOPLE DO NOT WANT!!!!!!

Who are the Libertarias? Doesn't the UN, by definition, represent "the people"? That body isn't exactly popular with the neocons.

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:19

#106

West Coast Greeny

Frmrsldr wrote:

M. Spector wrote:

[url=http://archive.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=13&t=0021... the Iraqis[/url] whether things are [url=http://archive.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=0015... now[/url] than they were [url=http://archive.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=13&t=0016... Saddam[/url].

Yes!

And the Afghans whether they are better off now than under the Taliban government.

Ask anybody in the Balkans if they are better off now than they were under Milosovic. Ask the Rwandans if they wanted someone to intervene in thier affairs. This isn't even an occupation anyways, it's air support.

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:20

#107

Open Hand

I am heartsick over what is happening to the brave people of Libya. Qhadhafi will brutally crush any dissent and we can expect the defiant rebels to be slaughtered. I feel so helpless. Are there any rallies or protests planned? It's not much but it's something to let them know we stand with them.

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:21

#108

Frmrsldr

Unionist wrote:

Now the vultures are circling Libya, and Harper, the great humanitarian, he who sheds tears daily for the suffering people of Libya, Iraq, and Afghanistan, is sending a mercy mission of F-16s.

May their aircraft fall out of the air. May their efforts be crowned with defeat. Obama, Cameron, Sarkozy, Harper, to the dustbin of history. Victory to the Libyan people!

Yeah! You got it Unionist.

Unionist wrote:

Welcome back, Frmrsldr!

Yeeeaaahhh!

This badass is back with a vengeance!

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:21

#109

Rabelais

Unionist wrote:

Welcome back, Frmrsldr!

Now the vultures are circling Libya, and Harper, the great humanitarian, he who sheds tears daily for the suffering people of Libya, Iraq, and Afghanistan, is sending a mercy mission of F-16s.

May their aircraft fall out of the air. May their efforts be crowned with defeat. Obama, Cameron, Sarkozy, Harper, to the dustbin of history. Victory to the Libyan people!

So...we'll put you down for Gadhafi, then?

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:29

#110

Frmrsldr

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

welder wrote:

Are you saying,because of your antipathy to Big Oil.Which I have,as well,that you are prepared to allow Mr.Khaddaffi to kill as many people as he can?

Is your position that that real suffering is to be put aside because of your personal geopolitical theories??

What goes on in Libya is the affair of Libyans and no one else.

No other country has the right to militarily interfere in the internal affairs of Libya and Libyans.

Would you say that about Rwanda too?

Yes.

The Rwanda genocide was the result of/caused by Western interference.

Rwanda was later used to justify NATO bombing in Bosnia and Kosovo, the Afghan war, that R2P crap and the oxymoronic "humanitarian war for peace", stop murderers through murder (war), War is Peace, Hate is Love, Murder is Life sustaining, Bombing for humanitarian aid, etc.,,,

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:31

#111

NDPP

Libyan Government Moots Rebel Ceasefire

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/libyan-government-moots-rebel-cease...

"Libya is ready for a ceasefire with the rebels battling Muammar Gaddafi, but wants to discuss how it will be implemented, deputy foreign minister Khaled Kaaim says.

'We are ready for this decision (a ceasefire) but we require an interlocutor to discuss how to implement it,' Mr. Kaaim told a news conference shortly after the UNSC voted to permit ' all necessary measures'...

Mr. Kaaim indicated that Libya would 'react positively to the UN resolution, and we will prove this willingness while guaranteeing protection to civilians..."

AJ Libya Live Blog, March 18

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-18

"Peter Wittig, Germany's UN Envoy said:

'The liklihood of large-scale loss of life should not be underestimated. If the steps proposed turn out to be ineffective, we see the danger of being drawn into a protracted military conflict that would effect the wider region.'"

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:34

#112

Frmrsldr

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

Papal Bull wrote:

I don't think Fidel said it. He is comparing Gadaffi to a legitimate democratic government that had a militarist putsch that initially failed and dragged out into a civil war that acted as the first stage of WW2.

For this analogy to work the rebels would have to be identifiable as reactionary insurgents and in control of parts of the government. This is not an apt analogy and is frankly quite disgusting. Regardless of the international anticipating for another orgy of bombs falling on civilian sites - like the Spanish Civil War - one cannot draw paradigms between the political programs of 2011 Libya and 1930s Spain.

That is some shameful rhetoric. Fidel, you sir, are engaged in mindless shock rhetoric to defend a poor point. Gadaffi may have been some anti-imperialist hero. 40 years of power turns all men into tyrants and crooks.

As for the no-fly zone, well, it is being instituted - let us hope that the collateral damage is not too widespread. What happens now will simply happen. Accusing other leftists of grevious transgressions against The Orthodox Thought is counter-productive and won't move any discussion forward. I can understand why al-Jazeera (that mouth piece of American propoganda) is showing images of the people of Benghazi celebrating this international action - for them it will mean protection and survival in the short term - it means destruction in Libya in the long term.

No, no, Papal Bull,

What Fidel is saying is that the Libyan People are asking for support, just like the Spanish Libertarias were asking for support.

The Spanish Libertarias wanted support from the people of the U.S.S.R. (they got that until the end of 1938) and Britain and France. What they got was bombing from the Luftwaffe (Nazi German Air Force) and Regia Aeronautica d'Italia (Fascist Italy Air Force.)

The Libyan People want support from Liberated People (Libertarias) around the world.

What they're gonna get is a U.N. mandated U.S./E.U./NATO enforced no-fly zone and air-to-ground war.

SOMETHING THE (LIBYAN) PEOPLE DO NOT WANT!!!!!!

Who are the Libertarias? Doesn't the UN, by definition, represent "the people"? That body isn't exactly popular with the neocons.

The Libertarias are "the Liberated Ones."

The U.N. represents nations. Sometimes collectively, sometimes a mix of groups and individual nations, and sometimes just individual nations. Sometimes nations like the U.S.A. simply ignore the U.N. if it renders an unpopular decision.

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:36

#113

welder

Frmrsldr wrote:

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

welder wrote:

Are you saying,because of your antipathy to Big Oil.Which I have,as well,that you are prepared to allow Mr.Khaddaffi to kill as many people as he can?

Is your position that that real suffering is to be put aside because of your personal geopolitical theories??

What goes on in Libya is the affair of Libyans and no one else.

No other country has the right to militarily interfere in the internal affairs of Libya and Libyans.

Would you say that about Rwanda too?

Yes.

The Rwanda genocide was the result of/caused by Western interference.

Rwanda was later used to justify NATO bombing in Bosnia and Kosovo, the Afghan war, that R2P crap and the oxymoronic "humanitarian war for peace", stop murderers through murder (war), War is Peace, Hate is Love, Murder is Life sustaining, Bombing for humanitarian aid, etc.,,,

The Rwandan genocide happened because we refused to do anything about it...

Thankfully,we may have learned from that mistake and are going to stop a mass killing in Benghazi by a bloodthirsty Pan-Arabist...

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:37

#114

welder

Unionist wrote:

Welcome back, Frmrsldr!

Now the vultures are circling Libya, and Harper, the great humanitarian, he who sheds tears daily for the suffering people of Libya, Iraq, and Afghanistan, is sending a mercy mission of F-16s.

May their aircraft fall out of the air. May their efforts be crowned with defeat. Obama, Cameron, Sarkozy, Harper, to the dustbin of history. Victory to the Libyan people!

A fan of Col. Khadaffi,are we???

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:38

#115

welder

Frmrsldr wrote:

welder wrote:

I don't deny the fre(er)flow of oil is part of this,however,that does'nt change the fact that there are people trying to free themselves from Mr.Khaddaffi's murderous and repressive regime.Those people are about to be murdered by Mr.Khaddaffi,and his "friends"...

Alot of them are going to die horribly if nothing is done,that's for certain...

So,I take it your position is that because the European powers,and their oil executive aparatchiks will probably profit from this,that Mr.Khaddaffi should be allowd to murder his own citizens,who he has almost no regard for anyway???

And as I said before,will certainly pave the way for the even worse,and even more bloodthirsty,Islamofascist's....

Throughout Gadhafi's career, he has been supported by various Western powers at various times.

What is happening now is a product of this.

To interfere with a no-fly zone and bombing and strafing Gadhafi forces on the ground will only put the Libyan people in the debt/grip of the West, should the West succeed in defeating government forces and overthrowing Gadhafi.

Whatever happens, whether the people succeed or fail -

It should be left entirely up to the People.

I know this may sould like "tough love" to some of you,

But it's the best way, if the Libyan People are to be Libertarias (Free or Liberated People.)

They must do it (for) themselves.

I can't disagree with the "Blowback Theory"..However,in the wierd alchemy of Cold War geopolitics,Khaddaffi was also supported by the Soviets at times...

The rest of this is simply the praddle of someone who is prepared to let alot of Libyans die because of??

I don't know??

Misguided admiration of some Arab tyrant who seemingly stands up to the "West"?,all the while,killing his own people mercilessly.

The Libyan people cannot fight back against this bloodthirsty tyrant because they simply don't have the tools...

Now,they might...And it's time for Col. Khaddaffi to receive his cummuppance for 40 years of theft and murder of the people you seem to think he cares about...

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:39

#116

I can't remember the western media getting all hysterical about how we had to go in and help the Rwandans before it was too late. Seems like it was all reported after the fact.

Gwyn Dyers column today was about how we had to hurry and help the Libyans before we lost our window of opportunity, as if it would be a crying shame if this matter got resolved before we had a chance to occupy the country.

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:41

#117

West Coast Greeny

9/11 was the reason Afghanistan was invaded you idiot.

"That R2P crap" protected hundreds of thousands of Kosovars from the war criminal Milosovic.

Nobody is getting murdered under a no-fly zone, except for Gaddafi pilots bombing civilians.

And explain to me exactly how the Rwandan Genocide was caused by Western interference?

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:42

#118

welder

ov wrote:

I can't remember the western media getting all hysterical about how we had to go in and help the Rwandans before it was too late. Seems like it was all reported after the fact.

Gwyn Dyers column today was about how we had to hurry and help the Libyans before we lost our window of opportunity, as if it would be a crying shame if this matter got resolved before we had a chance to occupy the country.

If we follow your train of logic,the only thing that will happen is Col.Khaddaffi will kill everyone and anyone who stood up to him over the last month...

And the few that are leftover will be forced to go to the Islamofascist types to try to win some sort of "freedom"

Is that your preferable outcome??

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:43

#119

VectoV

[quote=Unionist]

Welcome back, Frmrsldr!

Now the vultures are circling Libya, and Harper, the great humanitarian, he who sheds tears daily for the suffering people of Libya, Iraq, and Afghanistan, is sending a mercy mission of F-16s.

May their aircraft fall out of the air. May their efforts be crowned with defeat. Obama, Cameron, Sarkozy, Harper, to the dustbin of history. Victory to the Libyan people!

There probably will be victory for the Libyans, because the afore mentioned leaders have decided to help those people.

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:46

#120

welder

West Coast Greeny wrote:

9/11 was the reason Afghanistan was invaded you idiot.

"That R2P crap" protected hundreds of thousands of Kosovars from the war criminal Milosovic.

Nobody is getting murdered under a no-fly zone, except for Gaddafi pilots bombing civilians.

And explain to me exactly how the Rwandan Genocide was caused by Western interference?

Ya gotta love these people,don't ya'???

They would rather see a sure mass muder of civilians by a Pan Arab Ba'Athist dictator,rather than seeing those civilians given the ncessary tools to repel said dictator and send his murderous a$$ back to Tripoli...Or hopefully,somewhere else...

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:47

#121

Frmrsldr

Frmrsldr wrote:

Yes!

And the Afghans whether they are better off now than under the Taliban government.

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Ask anybody in the Balkans if they are better off now than they were under Milosovic. Ask the Rwandans if they wanted someone to intervene in thier affairs. This isn't even an occupation anyways, it's air support.

The killings that occurred in Bosnia prior to U.S. and NATO bombing were exaggerated to "justify" military interference.

After the bombing and sending of U.S. and NATO ground forces to Bosnia and Kosovo and U.S. and British support of the KLA, this provided the KLA with the opportunity to move into Bosnia/Kosovo and the killings/genocide were increased exponentially by this.

So yes, prior to then, the people in Bosnia did have it better.

Both the genocide in Rwanda and the intentional delay to stop it were caused by actions and decisions of Western governments.

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:48

#122

NDPP

Rwanda was a US led regime change operation - an invasion from Uganda, in which Canada participated. Once again, it was an imperialist operation and definitely not as advertised, Go search the Africa threads and decontaminate yourself from all that bogus 'Shake hands with the Devil' nonsense.

Clinton Promises to Bomb Libya - Calls Qaddafi 'Creature'

http://www.thenation.com/blog/159295/clinton-promises-bomb-libya-calls-q...

"A no-fly zone requires certain actions taken to protect the planes and the pilots including bombing targets like the Libyan defense systems...Qaddafi must go. He is a ruthless dictator that has no conscience and will destroy anyone or anything in his way. If Qaddafi does not go, he will just make trouble. That is just his nature. There are some creatures that are like that.."

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:52

#123

welder

NDPP wrote:

Rwanda was a US led regime change operation - an invasion from Uganda, in which Canada participated. Once again, it was an imperialist operation and definitely not as advertised, Go search the Africa threads and decontaminate yourself from all that bogus 'Shake hands with the Devil' nonsense.

Clinton Promises to Bomb Libya - Calls Qaddafi 'Creature'

http://www.thenation.com/blog/159295/clinton-promises-bomb-libya-calls-q...

"A no-fly zone requires certain actions taken to protect the planes and the pilots including bombing targets like the Libyan defense systems...Qaddafi must go. He is a ruthless dictator that has no conscience and will destroy anyone or anything in his way. If Qaddafi does not go, he will just make trouble. That is just his nature. There are some creatures that are like that.."

Creature...Hmm??

Is that worse than Col.Khaddaffi calling his own citizens (the he's brutally repressed fro more than 4 decades) rats???

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:52

#124

West Coast Greeny

Frmrsldr wrote:

So yes, prior to then, the people in Bosnia did have it better.

And in recognition of that, Bosnia just voted in favour of the no-fly zone?

Quote:

Both the genocide in Rwanda and the intentional delay to stop it were caused by actions and decisions of Western governments.

You're right, Western governments, as well as the rest of the UN, are totally 100% culpable for not intervening in Rwanda to stop the genocide. But how was the genocide caused by Western governments?

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:53

#125

Frmrsldr

welder wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

welder wrote:

Are you saying,because of your antipathy to Big Oil.Which I have,as well,that you are prepared to allow Mr.Khaddaffi to kill as many people as he can?

Is your position that that real suffering is to be put aside because of your personal geopolitical theories??

What goes on in Libya is the affair of Libyans and no one else.

No other country has the right to militarily interfere in the internal affairs of Libya and Libyans.

Would you say that about Rwanda too?

Yes.

The Rwanda genocide was the result of/caused by Western interference.

Rwanda was later used to justify NATO bombing in Bosnia and Kosovo, the Afghan war, that R2P crap and the oxymoronic "humanitarian war for peace", stop murderers through murder (war), War is Peace, Hate is Love, Murder is Life sustaining, Bombing for humanitarian aid, etc.,,,

The Rwandan genocide happened because we refused to do anything about it...

Thankfully,we may have learned from that mistake and are going to stop a mass killing in Benghazi by a bloodthirsty Pan-Arabist...

The Rwandan genocide happened because the U.S., CIA and U.K., MI-6, etc., meddled to cause it.

Other countries refused to do anything to stop it because war, conflict, instability and weak Western dominated puppet regimes are what the West wants in Rwanda and the DRC because these countries are very rich in strategic minerals that we want at cheap (depressed) prices.

Using Rwanda is a canard for the U.S.A. and NATO to justify the Afghan war and any other "bombing and murdering for humanitarianism" campaign.

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:56

#126

Frmrsldr

welder wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Welcome back, Frmrsldr!

Now the vultures are circling Libya, and Harper, the great humanitarian, he who sheds tears daily for the suffering people of Libya, Iraq, and Afghanistan, is sending a mercy mission of F-16s.

May their aircraft fall out of the air. May their efforts be crowned with defeat. Obama, Cameron, Sarkozy, Harper, to the dustbin of history. Victory to the Libyan people!

A fan of Col. Khadaffi,are we???

Nope.

And, can't you guess?

Not a fan of Herr Harper and his gang of criminals, either.

Thu, 2011-03-17 21:58

#127

welder

Frmrsldr wrote:

welder wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Welcome back, Frmrsldr!

Now the vultures are circling Libya, and Harper, the great humanitarian, he who sheds tears daily for the suffering people of Libya, Iraq, and Afghanistan, is sending a mercy mission of F-16s.

May their aircraft fall out of the air. May their efforts be crowned with defeat. Obama, Cameron, Sarkozy, Harper, to the dustbin of history. Victory to the Libyan people!

A fan of Col. Khadaffi,are we???

Nope.

And, can't you guess?

Not a fan of Herr Harper and his gang of criminals, either.

I don't like Firewall Stevie,either...

But I dislike murderous dictators even more...

What is your prescription for empowering the Libyan people to stop Col. Khaddaffi from killing them??

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:00

#128

welder

Frmrsldr wrote:

welder wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

welder wrote:

Are you saying,because of your antipathy to Big Oil.Which I have,as well,that you are prepared to allow Mr.Khaddaffi to kill as many people as he can?

Is your position that that real suffering is to be put aside because of your personal geopolitical theories??

What goes on in Libya is the affair of Libyans and no one else.

No other country has the right to militarily interfere in the internal affairs of Libya and Libyans.

Would you say that about Rwanda too?

Yes.

The Rwanda genocide was the result of/caused by Western interference.

Rwanda was later used to justify NATO bombing in Bosnia and Kosovo, the Afghan war, that R2P crap and the oxymoronic "humanitarian war for peace", stop murderers through murder (war), War is Peace, Hate is Love, Murder is Life sustaining, Bombing for humanitarian aid, etc.,,,

The Rwandan genocide happened because we refused to do anything about it...

Thankfully,we may have learned from that mistake and are going to stop a mass killing in Benghazi by a bloodthirsty Pan-Arabist...

The Rwandan genocide happened because the U.S., CIA and U.K., MI-6, etc., meddled to cause it.

Other countries refused to do anything to stop it because war, conflict, instability and weak Western dominated puppet regimes are what the West wants in Rwanda and the DRC because these countries are very rich in strategic minerals that we want at cheap (depressed) prices.

Using Rwanda is a canard for the U.S.A. and NATO to justify the Afghan war and any other "bombing and murdering for humanitarianism" campaign.

Did you get that from Alex Jones or David Icke???

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:06

#129

West Coast Greeny

Frmrsldr wrote:

welder wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

welder wrote:

Are you saying,because of your antipathy to Big Oil.Which I have,as well,that you are prepared to allow Mr.Khaddaffi to kill as many people as he can?

Is your position that that real suffering is to be put aside because of your personal geopolitical theories??

What goes on in Libya is the affair of Libyans and no one else.

No other country has the right to militarily interfere in the internal affairs of Libya and Libyans.

Would you say that about Rwanda too?

Yes.

The Rwanda genocide was the result of/caused by Western interference.

Rwanda was later used to justify NATO bombing in Bosnia and Kosovo, the Afghan war, that R2P crap and the oxymoronic "humanitarian war for peace", stop murderers through murder (war), War is Peace, Hate is Love, Murder is Life sustaining, Bombing for humanitarian aid, etc.,,,

The Rwandan genocide happened because we refused to do anything about it...

Thankfully,we may have learned from that mistake and are going to stop a mass killing in Benghazi by a bloodthirsty Pan-Arabist...

The Rwandan genocide happened because the U.S., CIA and U.K., MI-6, etc., meddled to cause it. (my emphasis)

Other countries refused to do anything to stop it because war, conflict, instability and weak Western dominated puppet regimes are what the West wants in Rwanda and the DRC because these countries are very rich in strategic minerals that we want at cheap (depressed) prices.

Using Rwanda is a canard for the U.S.A. and NATO to justify the Afghan war and any other "bombing and murdering for humanitarianism" campaign.

Whoa, whoa, WHOA!

Ignoring the fact you've apparently forgotten the most famous casus belli since Pearl Harbour.

Links? Evidence? Something? ANYTHING to back THAT up? You sound like you've just pulled that straight out of thin air.

Unionist: THAT'S your dragon?

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:08

#130

West Coast Greeny

It's 8:00. I promised myself to start studying. I'll be back in thread V ... or VIII, tomorrow or the next day ... I think.

[img]http://www.jerrah.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/someone_is_wrong_on_the...

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:08

#131

Frmrsldr

welder wrote:

What is your prescription for empowering the Libyan people to stop Col. Khaddaffi from killing them??

Allowing arms from Tunisia, Algeria, Niger, Chad, the Sudan and Egypt to flow to the Libyan People and for all Liberated People from the world (like the International Brigades during the Spanish Civil War) to join and support the Libyan People.

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:09

#132

Jacob Two-Two

Can we stop with the "not-for-us-you're-against-us" formulations? Do you really want to be in that class of people?

People who are opposing interventions are not fans of Gadhafi, they are mistrustful of western leaders. people who support them are not imperialist apologists, but trying to give aid to freedom fighters who are in danger of being wiped out.

I have to put myself in the second category, I think. I also mistrust the motives of western leaders, and I'm very concerned about the dangerous precedents such actions set, but I can't accept leaving Libyan rebels to have their revolt crushed. I know this could go bad, but I'm hoping not. Possibly just the threat of UN action will make the dictator realise he has to play nice or face destruction.

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:10

#133

Frmrsldr

West Coast Greeny wrote:

9/11 was the reason Afghanistan was invaded you idiot.

Hmmm.

The majority of those who committed and were behind the 9/11 criminal act of terrorism (not an act of war) were Saudi Arabian, with an Egyptian and a person from the U.A.E.

There were NO Afghans involved in that.

Yet the crime of going to war against a criminal act is further compounded by the facts that:

1. The Afghan war is an illegal war of aggression,

2. Innocent Afghan people are being collectively punished (by an illegal war) for having committed no crime and having done no wrong.

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:11

#134

welder

Frmrsldr wrote:

welder wrote:

What is your prescription for empowering the Libyan people to stop Col. Khaddaffi from killing them??

Allowing arms from Tunisia, Algeria, Niger, Chad, the Sudan and Egypt to flow to the Libyan People and for all Liberated People from the world (like the International Brigades during the Spanish Civil War) to join and support the Libyan People.

Right...well...

Got a timeline on that one???

'Cause Col.Khaddaffi is comin' for Benghazi and he's takin' no prisoners....

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:12

#135

Frmrsldr

welder wrote:

Did you get that from Alex Jones or David Icke???

Never heard of them.

Who are they?

No. If I "get" my information from somewhere, I don't plagiarize.

I simply post the url and let babblers read it if they wish.

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:19

#136

Frmrsldr

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Whoa, whoa, WHOA!

Ignoring the fact you've apparently forgotten the most famous casus belli since Pearl Harbour.

Links? Evidence? Something? ANYTHING to back THAT up? You sound like you've just pulled that straight out of thin air.

What's the causus belli since Pearl Harbor?

That the American Empire has the right to wage wars of aggression and meddle in every other country's affairs to prevent another "Pearl Harbor/9/11"?

Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were inside jobs.

If you want links and evidence, that will take LOTS of time.

Your best bets are our friend NDPP.

and the internet: the world at your fingertips. Go to ask.com and ask away.

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:20

#137

welder

Frmrsldr wrote:

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Whoa, whoa, WHOA!

Ignoring the fact you've apparently forgotten the most famous casus belli since Pearl Harbour.

Links? Evidence? Something? ANYTHING to back THAT up? You sound like you've just pulled that straight out of thin air.

What's the causus belli since Pearl Harbor?

That the American Empire has the right to wage wars of aggression and meddle in every other country's affairs to prevent another "Pearl Harbor/9/11"?

Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were inside jobs.

If you want links and evidence, that will take LOTS of time.

Your best bets are our friend NDPP.

and the internet: the world at your fingertips. Go to ask.com and ask away.

You mean tinfoil hat conspiracy crapola???

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:22

#138

welder

Jacob Two-Two wrote:

Can we stop with the "not-for-us-you're-against-us" formulations? Do you really want to be in that class of people?

People who are opposing interventions are not fans of Gadhafi, they are mistrustful of western leaders. people who support them are not imperialist apologists, but trying to give aid to freedom fighters who are in danger of being wiped out.

I have to put myself in the second category, I think. I also mistrust the motives of western leaders, and I'm very concerned about the dangerous precedents such actions set, but I can't accept leaving Libyan rebels to have their revolt crushed. I know this could go bad, but I'm hoping not. Possibly just the threat of UN action will make the dictator realise he has to play nice or face destruction.

I can't disagree with any of that...

I'm no fan of Big Oil,nor am I a fan of US foreign policy over the last 6 or 7 decades..

But we are out of time,folks...The Col. is on the warpath and he's not going to stop until as many of the people he refers to as "rats" are dead!

The failure to stop this dictator brings into a far darker area,because the West will be looked at as a full of talk with no action,who left people to die at the hands of a bloody murderer...And for those that will survive Col. Khaddaffi's killing field,the only option is the even worse Islamofascists...

I agree this is the ultimate Hobsian choice,but it the last hope at the moment...

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:22

#139

Frmrsldr

welder wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

welder wrote:

What is your prescription for empowering the Libyan people to stop Col. Khaddaffi from killing them??

Allowing arms from Tunisia, Algeria, Niger, Chad, the Sudan and Egypt to flow to the Libyan People and for all Liberated People from the world (like the International Brigades during the Spanish Civil War) to join and support the Libyan People.

Right...well...

Got a timeline on that one???

'Cause Col.Khaddaffi is comin' for Benghazi and he's takin' no prisoners....

The wars (now insurgencies) in Afghanistan and Iraq were supposed to be "slam dunks."

How long have they been going?

How long do you think they are going to continue?

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:26

#140

Frmrsldr

welder wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Whoa, whoa, WHOA!

Ignoring the fact you've apparently forgotten the most famous casus belli since Pearl Harbour.

Links? Evidence? Something? ANYTHING to back THAT up? You sound like you've just pulled that straight out of thin air.

What's the causus belli since Pearl Harbor?

That the American Empire has the right to wage wars of aggression and meddle in every other country's affairs to prevent another "Pearl Harbor/9/11"?

Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were inside jobs.

If you want links and evidence, that will take LOTS of time.

Your best bets are our friend NDPP.

and the internet: the world at your fingertips. Go to ask.com and ask away.

You mean tinfoil hat conspiracy crapola???

You consider the Afghan, the covert Pakistan, the Iraq, the Somali, Yemen, saber rattling against Iran and North Korea, wars and the fact that the U.S. has over 700 bases in foreign countries worldwide "tinfoil hat conspiracy crapola"?

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:29

#141

welder

Frmrsldr wrote:

welder wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

welder wrote:

What is your prescription for empowering the Libyan people to stop Col. Khaddaffi from killing them??

Allowing arms from Tunisia, Algeria, Niger, Chad, the Sudan and Egypt to flow to the Libyan People and for all Liberated People from the world (like the International Brigades during the Spanish Civil War) to join and support the Libyan People.

Right...well...

Got a timeline on that one???

'Cause Col.Khaddaffi is comin' for Benghazi and he's takin' no prisoners....

The wars (now insurgencies) in Afghanistan and Iraq were supposed to be "slam dunks."

How long have they been going?

How long do you think they are going to continue?

This is called an obfusaction...

What is your timeline on your gun running theory???

Or are you admitting you have'nt thought things through??

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:31

#142

welder

Frmrsldr wrote:

welder wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Whoa, whoa, WHOA!

Ignoring the fact you've apparently forgotten the most famous casus belli since Pearl Harbour.

Links? Evidence? Something? ANYTHING to back THAT up? You sound like you've just pulled that straight out of thin air.

What's the causus belli since Pearl Harbor?

That the American Empire has the right to wage wars of aggression and meddle in every other country's affairs to prevent another "Pearl Harbor/9/11"?

Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were inside jobs.

If you want links and evidence, that will take LOTS of time.

Your best bets are our friend NDPP.

and the internet: the world at your fingertips. Go to ask.com and ask away.

You mean tinfoil hat conspiracy crapola???

You consider the Afghan, the covert Pakistan, the Iraq, the Somali, Yemen, saber rattling against Iran and North Korea, wars and the fact that the U.S. has over 700 bases in foreign countries worldwide "tinfoil hat conspiracy crapola"?

I get it now..

This all about your hatred of the US State Department,is'nt it??

Or is it The Bilderburg's that are the problem??

The Illuminatti???

High level Freemasonry???

Trilateral Commission??

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:33

#143

Frmrsldr

welder wrote:

The failure to stop this dictator brings into a far darker area,because the West will be looked at as a full of talk with no action,who left people to die at the hands of a bloody murderer...And for those that will survive Col. Khaddaffi's killing field,the only option is the even worse Islamofascists...

Let us not forget that WE are the ones who supported Gadhafi off and on over the years.

WE are the ones who create the bogeyman "Al Qaeda."

For all the good WE have done with OUR interfering in the affairs of other countries,

It is time we STOP and allow the People to decide their future (for) themselves.

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:42

#144

Frmrsldr

welder wrote:

What is your timeline on your gun running theory???

The "gun running" will last for as long as there are Libyan People who yearn for Freedom and there are Freedom loving People who are willing to arm them and fight by their side.

welder wrote:

Or are you admitting you have'nt thought things through??

The Libyan Libertarian Revolution was not "thought through" it was spontaneous, as most revolutions are.

Although Hitler and the nazis meticulously planned their attacks, WW2 didn't go the way they planned.

Although 'All (The) President's (W. Bushs') Men' planned the initial Afghan and Iraq wars, things haven't turned out the way they planned either.

Did they?

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:45

#145

Fidel

Great youre back, Former Soldier. You were right about Libya all along.

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:48

#146

Frmrsldr

welder wrote:

I get it now..

This all about your hatred of the US State Department,is'nt it??

Or is it The Bilderburg's that are the problem??

The Illuminatti???

High level Freemasonry???

Trilateral Commission??

Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

It is my anti-war/anti-interventionism streak speaking.

I am a warrior (soldier) sick of war and intervention.

I believe that the U.S.A. should go back to the way our original Founding Fathers envisioned it.

Call me a libertarian, a Constitutionalist or a paleoconservative if you like.

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:49

#147

Frmrsldr

Fidel wrote:

Great youre back, Former Soldier. You were right about Libya all along.

Ha! Ha!

Hats off to you, Fidel!

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:50

#148

welder

Frmrsldr wrote:

welder wrote:

The failure to stop this dictator brings into a far darker area,because the West will be looked at as a full of talk with no action,who left people to die at the hands of a bloody murderer...And for those that will survive Col. Khaddaffi's killing field,the only option is the even worse Islamofascists...

Let us not forget that WE are the ones who supported Gadhafi off and on over the years.

WE are the ones who create the bogeyman "Al Qaeda."

For all the good WE have done with OUR interfering in the affairs of other countries,

It is time we STOP and allow the People to decide their future (for) themselves.

1.So did the Soviets...So did Nasser

2.We assisted Al Quaeda while trying to fight the Soviets...I'm not sticking up for US foreign policy..Clearly a mistake.The blowback was/is apparent!

3.How are the people going to decide thier future with Col.Khaddaffi,absent your "Too Late to Save a Dying Witch" gun running scenario? (nice Zappa reference,huh?)

Thu, 2011-03-17 22:58

#149

welder

Frmrsldr wrote:

welder wrote:

What is your timeline on your gun running theory???

The "gun running" will last for as long as there are Libyan People who yearn for Freedom and there are Freedom loving People who are willing to arm them and fight by their side.

welder wrote:

Or are you admitting you have'nt thought things through??

The Libyan Libertarian Revolution was not "thought through" it was spontaneous, as most revolutions are.

Although Hitler and the nazis meticulously planned their attacks, WW2 didn't go the way they planned.

Although 'All (The) President's (W. Bushs') Men' planned the initial Afghan and Iraq wars, things haven't turned out the way they planned either.

Did they?

1.Probably true...Unfortunately its' far too late for your theory...They will get guns,though,from the Islamofascists...Yippee fricken skippee...Soyonara freedom!!!

2.Neither is your plan of gun running well thought through...I highly doubt the dictators in Niger,Algeria,,and,Sudan,really want to see a cohort go down because I'm sure they think they'll be next...

3.Correct..Thankfully,that was the case.If Herr Schickelgruber had not have got incensed with Yugoslavia's temerity to turn him down,Operation Barbarossa would have worked.The Wehrmacht required those 6 weeks to get to Moscow before Winter.Thankfully,Yugoslavia held out for those 6 weeks..

4.No it has'nt...I'm no fan of poorly planned conflict,however,sometimes it has to be done...I'm also no fan of bloodthirsty dictators decimating a populous that would stand up to a bully...

Thu, 2011-03-17 23:16

#150

Frmrsldr

welder wrote:

1.Probably true...Unfortunately its' far too late for your theory...They will get guns,though,from the Islamofascists...Yippee fricken skippee...Soyonara freedom!!!

This hypothesis is not certain, because "our" (i.e., C.I.A., Mi-6, etc.) information about "Salafists (Al Qaeda) in Africa" is sketchy. Look, given the spontaneous nature of the Revolution(s), the Pentagon & Co. were caught off guard and are still lurching toward some sort of policy - which now seems to be the no-fly zone.

welder wrote:

2.Neither is your plan of gun running well thought through...I highly doubt the dictators in Niger,Algeria,,and,Sudan,really want to see a cohort go down because I'm sure they think they'll be next...

The Libyan People are not going to get guns from (those African) governments because, yes naturally, they are afraid that if Gadhafi goes down it will be their turn next. They will get arms from local arms dealers. They will get additional Revolutionaries from world Libertarias (People) who will travel to these countries and cross the borders into Libya.

welder wrote:

4.No it has'nt...I'm no fan of poorly planned conflict,however,sometimes it has to be done...I'm also no fan of bloodthirsty dictators decimating a populous that would stand up to a bully...

These people wouldn't be in the mess they're in if we hadn't created and supported these bloodthirsty dictators to begin with.

We need to end this vicious cycle of addicton to foreign interference NOW!

The criterion I use to support what ought to be done is not the question, "Is it the most well thought-out option?"

But the much more difficult question, "Is it the most JUST option?"

[/quote]

Thu, 2011-03-17 23:19

#151

Frmrsldr

welder wrote:

How are the people going to decide thier future with Col.Khaddaffi,absent your "Too Late to Save a Dying Witch" gun running scenario? (nice Zappa reference,huh?)

Empericism:

In other words; we shall see, my friend, we shall see.

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