If you keep[...]being a disruptive know-it-all, then the result is completely predictable. You're gonna get your ass kicked by the mods
Suddenly we're anti-know-it-all? Who'll be left to post in these threads?
Apropos of nothing... have any women posted in any of these threads since Rebecca West closed threads II and III?
March 17: Libya: Gaddafi Troops On The Road To Benghazi
http://www.channel4.com/news/libya-gaddafi-troops-on-the-road-to-benghazi
"Defence analyst Anthony Tucker Jones looks at strength of the Gaddafi forces.."
I know, I know. It's about Afghanistan. And sadly, the Resolution for U.S. forces to withdraw from Afghanistan by December 2011, failed.
But it is revelvant to the Libyan situation.
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2011/03/17/ron-paul-time-to-get-out-of-afgha...
NATO May Carry Out Airstrikes Against Libya in Next Few Hours
http://en.rian.ru/world/20110318/163071472.html
"NATO is ready to carry out precision airstrikes against Libya and the military operation may begin in the next few hours, a NATO source said on Friday. He added that the airstrikes are likely to be carried out by the United States, Britain, France and Canada."
AU Panel On Libya To Meet Saturday
http://www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/World/AU-panel-on-Libya-to-meet-Saturday...
"The Panel is tasked to seek 'the immediate cessation of all hostilities, the cooperation of the competent Libyan authorities to facilitate the timely delivery of humanitarian assistance to the needy populations, and the adoption and implementation of the political reforms necessary for the elimination of the causes of the current crisis..."
Libya Condemns 'Aggression' But Hints At Ceasefire (and vid)
http://www.euronews.net/2011/03/18/libya-condemns-aggression-but-hints-a...
"At a news conference in Tripoli, the deputy foreign minister Khaled Kaim said the country would deal positively with [UNSC Resolution 1973] it, and he thanked nations who abstained from the vote.
He said Libya had offered a ceasefire, saying it could happen immediately - although the 'technicalities' would need to be worked out with the UN.
The Government's intention, that of the police and Armed Forces was the protection of civilians everywhere in the country, he said.
If the international community armed the rebels, he said, countries would be 'inviting Libyans to kill each other.'"
Given these clear iindications of Libya's willingness to comply and the AU Panel's imminent work on 'reforms necessary for the elimination of the causes of the current crisis', for NATO to begin bombing without giving these a chance to work first, would be a clear sign of their malevolent intentions and naked aggression.
The rest is just silly praddle...Oh,I forgot,it's the evil US...Not the ugly side of Islam..
You can't expect a bunch of leftists to cheerlead the latest imperial outburst from those bloodthirsty butchers at the US State Department and the Pentagon with the same zest that you've shown. After all, most of us are grown up enough to have discarded our cowboy rescue heroes action figures. Actually, we should establish a no 'fly' zone in this thread as a precautionary consideration to some of the turdish commentary you've dumped here.
Thanks for that. I figured you were just some right wing loser, fishing for conflict, trolling, etc. and you just gave it away. Why would anyone come to a left wing site, like rabble.ca, and ridicule "the standard leftist line" unless ... they were a right wing troll?
And just why do camp followers for the right wing typically prefer to leer out from behind their master's coat tails to egg on the bullies in any confrontation. It's certainly not due to a preference for saving innocent lives, because they wouldn't have been glossing over the massive loss of innocent lives around the world at the hands of their master, in just the last 20 years alone if that were true. One doesn't have to be very observant to recognize that the typical argument from the average right wing troll, supporter, apologist, what have you, is usually accompanied by the stench of cowardice. It's all about whomever they think will win, not necessarily the right or wrong of it.
Libyan forces attack last rebel-held western city
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110318/ap_on_re_af/af_libya
Moammar Gadhafi's forces are bombarding the last rebel-held western city as the international community discusses how to enforce a no-fly zone and protect the Libyan people.
A doctor says at least six people were killed Friday when tanks moved into Misrata and opened fire. He says a hospital and a mosque were shelled.
The doctor, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he feared reprisals, says the tanks then pulled back to the outskirts of the city.
Misrata, Libya's third-largest city, 125 miles (200 kilometers) southeast of Tripoli, has been sealed off by Gadhafi troops in a blockade that has cut off most water and food supplies for days.
I'm not sure if this happened AFTER the UN resolution. If it did happen after the resolution then Gadaffi is just asking for his ground forces to be bombed into wreckage. Given the wording of the resolution any bombardment of any built up area would serve as justification for such an air attack on his forces.
This weekend is going to be interesting.
@ N.Beltov: I miss took your post, sorry about that...
Britain to send aircraft to enforce Libya no-fly
Prime Minister David Cameron says Britain will send Typhoon and Tornado fighter jets "in the coming hours" to help enforce a no-fly zone over Libya.
Cameron told lawmakers Friday that Britain will join a U.N.-authorized operation to stop Moammar Gadhafi from launching "a brutal attack using air, land and sea forces" on the rebel-held city of Benghazi.
Cameron says the move is about saving lives and protecting people in Libya and insists it was "not about choosing the government of Libya."
Britain, France and NATO were holding emergency meetings Friday after the United Nations approved a no-fly zone over Libya. Cameron says Britain, France and Arab nations are to meet Saturday in Paris on no-fly zone.
One of the Brit papers quotes Col MQ as saying that any foreign military action taken against him will expose all air and maritime traffic in the mediterranean sea to possible counter-attack. The same piece suggested drones and Cruise missiles may be used early on in this thing. Al Jazeera again quoted one of the Benghazi spokespersons restating they only want the no fly zone no 'boots on the ground'.
The only way to fight FIBUA is with foot soldiers fighting a meat grinding hand-to-hand combat in every sewer, basement, room, floor, attic, rooftop of every building on every street on every block in the city.
They don't necessarily have to reenact Stalingrad anymore. A few special forces chaps mingled in with the rebel side, sporting laser targeting devices for those precision guided munitions is enough to avoid much of that.
Libya's government is declaring an immediate ceasefire "to protect civilians" in acordance with the UN Security Council resolution, Libya's foreign minister says.
...next they'll want a no float zone; the Gadaffi navy has been giving them fits as well.
These things should be a must have in the inventory of any littoral navy with any hope at all of giving the bigger dudes in the vicinity cause for concern.
CNN: Libyan residents of Misrata report they under attack by Gadafi forces - there is no ceasefire, it's a ruse.
I forgot...
You're "progressive"...
I suppose it's "Progressive" to stand by and let innocent people get slaughtered?
I suppose it's "juvenile" to pointout the inconsistency in that arguement?
And let me guess...It's "Islamophobic" to point out the obvious...That there is a certan element within that faith that wants to turn things back to a medieval period,civilizationally speaking,of course??
And I guess,it's "progressive" to gve in to conspiracy theories about some imperialist attack on Libya?
Progressive...As opposed to what??
Regressive??or not willing to buy the standard leftist line hook,line,and,sinker??
Welder, you obviously don't understand what the term "progressive" means. I'd refer you to our policy section, but I suspect that would be a waste of keystrokes.
This is a left-wing progressive site, so you need to either educate yourself or move to a forum more suitable to your views.
Russia's Permanent representative at the UN, Vitaly Churkin reiterated that Moscow was strongly opposed to violence against civilians in Libya. However, he said, there were several reasons behind the decision not to support the UN resolution.According to Churkin, work on the resolution did not comply with practices common for the Security Council and many questions remain unanswered, including how the no-fly zone would be maintained and what rules and limits to the use of force would be.
In addition, the draft - proposed by the Arab League - "was undergoing changes virtually in front of us, departing from the initial concept," the diplomat said as cited by Interfax.
"The text was supplemented with provisions, opening the door to a large-scale military intervention," Churkin said, adding that during the discussion of the draft assurances were voiced that there were no such plans. "We took note of that," he said.
Churkin said that Russia has consistently advocated "an unconditional protection of civilians". Baring this principle in mind as well as common humanitarian values with co-authors of the draft and other Security Council members, Russia did not block the resolution. "However, we are convinced that an immediate ceasefire is the shortest way to reliable civilian security and long-term stabilization in Libya." He said that a draft that Russia submitted to the Security Council on March 16 served exactly that purpose and stressed the necessity of a peaceful settlement of the situation in Libya.
"The Russian delegation had persisted that such a resolution would be adopted immediately, which would save many lives," he said. The Russian diplomat expressed regret that some Security Council member-states preferred "force methods".
Churkin pointed out that the responsibility for "inevitable humanitarian consequences" would fully rest with those who used force. If that happens, not only would the civilian population suffer but it might also damage interests of peace and stability in the entire region of North Africa and the Middle East. He stressed that it is crucial to avoid such destabilizing events.
It's pretty obvious whom those last remarks are intended for.
According to what I've read so far the Libyan gov has declared a ceasefire. Will the NATO bandit alliance bomb anyway? Their track record for indiscriminate bombing, slaughtering civilians, etc, isn't good.
Without ground troops, however, overthrowing Gadaffi and installing a NATO puppet regime isn't in the cards. Yet.
According to what I've read so far the Libyan gov has declared a ceasefire. Will the NATO bandit alliance bomb anyway? Their track record for indiscriminate bombing, slaughtering civilians, etc, isn't good.
Without ground troops, however, overthrowing Gadaffi and installing a NATO puppet regime isn't in the cards. Yet.
So far it's looking like the 'ceasefire' is in name only.
Bec.de.Corbin has provided (upthread) a link to a Yahoo News story about attacks by Libyan forces in Misrata. However, I'm somewhat wary/suspicious of a single report like this with one anonymous witness.
A ceasefire by all sides would be good at this point. That's the best we can hope for.
Bec.de.Corbin has provided (upthread) a link to a Yahoo News story about attacks by Libyan forces in Misrata. However, I'm somewhat wary/suspicious of a single report like this with one anonymous witness.
A ceasefire by all sides would be good at this point. That's the best we can hope for.
There's more the one anonymous witness reporting about explosion and shots in Misrata. Al jazeera is recieving multiple reports, the regular twitter feeds from people. etc etc. There's reports from Ajadabiya as well.
Do the reports say which side is doing the shooting?
Also, just curious: Have the opposition forces declared a ceasefire as well?
Ok, yea, there is a Libya live blog over there at al-jazeera. See the remarks by Abdul Basit Abu Muzairik, a resident of Misurata.
The sabre-rattling by the US regime continues, however, ...
Hillary Clinton, the US Secretary of State, says that the US is "pleased" with the vote to impose a no-fly zone yesterday ...She added that the "final result" of the crisis would "have to be the decision by Colonel Gaddafi to leave" office.
I don't think that overthrowing the government was part of the UN Security Council resolution.
Welder why is it war mongers like you only ever want to invade countries that are not American aligned. When you bring the same venom to thread after thread about the Saudis and their invasion of a neighbour to put down a democratic protest I will take you seriously. In the meantime you are merely another apologist for the most murderous regimes on the planet. All power to the people should not be a slogan that one applies only to selected countries.
There's more the one anonymous witness reporting about explosion and shots in Misrata. Al jazeera is recieving multiple reports, the regular twitter feeds from people. etc etc. There's reports from Ajadabiya as well.
However ... CNN reports ...
CNN couldn't independently confirm these accounts and it is impossible to tell whether the fighters got word of the government cease-fire declaration.
A fair question and one the Russians, Chinese, Germans, Indians and Brazilians will undoubtedly ask: Does a country get bombed based on unconfirmed reports?
[quote=Northern Shoveler]
Welder why is it war mongers like you only ever want to invade countries that are not American aligned. When you bring the same venom to thread after thread about the Saudis and their invasion of a neighbour to put down a democratic protest I will take you seriously. In the meantime you are merely another apologist for the most murderous regimes on the planet. All power to the people should not be a slogan that one applies only to selected countries.
One could also say that you bring venom to the thread. That is so exaggerated, it is beyond belief. Have you not heard of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and the list goes on and on. The Americans are far from perfect and their foreign policy leaves a lot to desire, as well as a lot of other countries, but describing them as a most murderous regimes in history is at the least exaggeration and at the most venemous.
There's more the one anonymous witness reporting about explosion and shots in Misrata. Al jazeera is recieving multiple reports, the regular twitter feeds from people. etc etc. There's reports from Ajadabiya as well.However ... CNN reports ...
CNN couldn't independently confirm these accounts and it is impossible to tell whether the fighters got word of the government cease-fire declaration.
:D Yes. Unless CNN confirms it can't be true. LOL
Look you can feel how you want about it. I'm just commenting on what I'm reading on sites like the Libyan Youth Movement which so far has been quite good and reporting info that ends up being accuate in terms getting confirmed by the MSM.
Reuters is now reporting from various witness about shelling in Misrata. Al Jazerra twitter feeds are reporting more info now.
Whether Gaffhafi's forces have got the word from command or not it does appear that they were attacking after Gadaffi said we're stopping.
If you're going to disrupt THIS thread like you did the other one, VectoV, you can count on getting yours posts flagged as offensive.
Consider yourself warned.
He's smart as a fox. Goes with the no fly, declares a ceasefire and continues on, which forces the UN to attack the ground forces, which will escalate the whole damn thing. I hope I'm wrong.
I'm sorry. I was not aware that I am being disruptive. Could you please be more specific.
I thought I was clear. Weren't you banned for a day or so?
No I was banned for a day and rightfully so. I still don't know how I'm being disruptive, other than posting a comment?
I am quite certain the UN does NOT base their actions on a single unconfirmed source. There are reconnaisance satellites in the sky constantly evaluating the situation on the ground. And they likely know from prior experience with Gadafi what he is capable of, so any pronouncements from him are likely weighed with what their spy satellites are directly observing.
ElizaQ - according to the live blog on al Jazeera the two sides are making diametrically opposed claims. The Libyan gov claims
Libya has already implemented the ceasefire. We have not carried out any military operations today on Misrata or anywhere else in the country. We don't know who to reach at the UN Security Council to work out the technicalities of the ceasefire. That is the problem at the moment which we are trying to resolve."
... while other claims
Speaking to Al Jazeera from Misurata, Mohamed Ali, a member of the opposition National Council in that city, describes a horrific scene. He says that shelling of the city has been ongoing continuously since about 2:00am.
Who's telling the truth? And if NATO aircraft start bombing, what third party is going to go in there to determine the facts and keep the two sides apart?
The U.N. has spy satellites??
Anyway, for those following the Libyan opposition sites (I'm not), have they adopted the U.N. resolution and declared a ceasefire?
He's smart as a fox. Goes with the no fly, declares a ceasefire and continues on, which forces the UN to attack the ground forces, which will escalate the whole damn thing. I hope I'm wrong.
We'll see about the ground attack; I am sure if he thinks he can do so he will. And I hope you are wrong about the outcome too.
That remark by the Libyans on "who to reach to work out the technicalities of the ceasefire" is pretty clever, actually. The UN Security Council is NOT in charge, that's the point. The NATO military alliance has been given a kind of carte blanche - in which the text was changing as the Russians were asked to sign it ... if you please! - and since they won't say what their plans are they are making it impossible to work out the details of a ceasefire. They want to bomb. That seems a reasonable conclusion.
And it's pretty clever of the Libyan regime to draw attention to that.
As I said there is more then one witness. Al Jazzera English was interviewing some people on the phone. You could hear stuff in the background. Video is now being posted. Sky news just aired some of it.
Reuters article with more then one witness cited.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/18/us-libya-misrata-bombard-idUST...
Translated video from cameraman with report.
http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/03/egypts-military-has-begun-shipping-arm...
There's quite an interesting interview at the link below with Ali Ahmida on the Real News Network giving a short synopsis of Libyan history since the early 20th century. It's about 12 minutes long.
Gaddafi: From Popular Hero to Isolated Dictator
Ahmida talks about the brutal Italian colonial occupation of Libya from 1911 to 1943, which was particularly genocidal during the Fascist era...where an estimated 500,000 Libyans died in concentration camps. You have to keep in mind that today Libya's population is only 6.4 million.
Independence came in 1951 under King Idris, a corrupt pro-U.S., pro British regime.
When a group of young army officers led by Gaddafi overthrew King Idris in 1969, it was a genuinely popular move. Ahmida talks about the introduction of popular social programmes during the first ten years after the Libyan revolution financed by Libya's oil wealth.
Ahmida says that it was in the 1980's that the regime started to become unglued. Leadership was more or less collective for the first ten years. But in the 1980's Gaddafi started to concentrate political power in his own hands and started to become oppressive. That's when we started seeing the outlawing of mass organizations like unions and student groups.
That's where "Part one" of this video ends. I'm looking forward to seeing the second part of Ahmida's interview when it gets posted. It deals with the post 1980 period up till now.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
To answer unionist's question upthread ...
Meanwhile, the rebels say they will simply not heed the ceasefire call. The clashes in the east and west still continue. RT's Paula Slier, who is in Tripoli, says there are unconfirmed reports of explosions outside the capital.
Here's the remarks by the Russian envoy at more length:
Russia's envoy to the UN, Vitaly Churkin, said that the resolution fails to limit the extent of intervention in Libya.
"In essence, a whole range of questions raised by the Russian Federation and other Security Council members remained unanswered. Questions which were both concrete and legitimate; questions regarding how the no-fly zone would be enforced, what the rules of engagement would be and limits to the use of force. Provisions were introduced into the text, potentially opening the door to large-scale military intervention. Responsibility for the inevitable humanitarian consequences of the excessive use of outside force in Libya will fall fair and square on the shoulders of those who might undertake such actions. If this happens, then not only the civilian population of Libya, but also the cause of upholding peace and security throughout the whole region of North Africa and the Middle East will suffer. There's a need to avoid such destabilizing developments."
The U.N. has spy satellites??
No, but member states do, and that info is more than likely shared with the Security Council or the Secretary General or whomever is in charge of all this at the UN.
"If this happens, then not only the civilian population of Libya, but also the cause of upholding peace and security throughout the whole region of North Africa and the Middle East will suffer. "
Speaking of destabilizing, I'm just glad I didn't have coffee in my mouth when I read that one.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Say, that's deep.
The U.N. has spy satellites??No, but member states do, and that info is more than likely shared with the Security Council or the Secretary General or whomever is in charge of all this at the UN.
See, there's my problem, Boom Boom. The U.S. sharing spy information with the Secretary General? And he keeps it secret from Russia, China, Iran, Libya, and other member nations - all supposed to be equal as members?
The U.N. has been dragged into an ugly adventure setting an ugly precedent. It doesn't need spy information, because it will have nothing to do whatsoever with this military adventure, other than lending it a fig leaf of legitimacy.
Yes, but some member states have been know to find weapons of mass destruction with their spy satellites when there was none to be found.The U.N. has spy satellites??No, but member states do, and that info is more than likely shared with the Security Council or the Secretary General or whomever is in charge of all this at the UN.
[quote=al-Qa'bong]
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Say, that's deep.
Why, thank you al, I'm just sticking my toe in the water, so to speak, as I have been warned.
Yes, "WMD" that they were pretty sure were there in Iraq(Iran, etc name that country), because warmongering plutocrats had copies of bills of sale to prove it! It's just that they didn't know what to do when Saddam got rid of WMD years prior as per UN order when they laid mdieval siege against a desertified oil-rich nation and causing the deaths of a million human beings before operation shock and appall even began.
Gaddafi uses his decades-old CIA training once again in calling for a ceasefire just as the Security Council gets a No-Fly mandate. Another example of his CIA training includes discrediting the rebels by calling them "rats and drug addicts", and "there is a small group of sick people that has infiltrated in cities that are circulating drugs and money".
---- on a lighter note -
Maybe the task of keeping Gaddafi from beating down the rebels will be a tougher fight than is predicted - quotes from Col Gaddafi's recent speaches refers to some of his "unconventional weapons", such as:
* he said he would "put two fingers in their eye" if Britian got involved in Libya's rebel uprising.
* In order to take back the streets from the rebels, Gaddafi's instructed his supporters to "go out and chase them"
The United States will deploy additional amphibious ships to the Mediterranean, the military has said.The USS Bataan Amphibious Ready Group will deploy on March 23, "ahead of its original schedule in order to relieve units from the USS Kearsarge (Amphibious Ready Group)", a Pentagon statement read.
The militarist regime in the US has no UN authority for troops on the ground in Libya. But they're still preparing for a land invasion anyway.
I wonder when the WMDs will be "discovered" and the public will be, once again, treated to a pompous and lying claim from Uncle Sam about an impending mushroom cloud?
I had coffee in my mouth when I read that and I wasn't the least surprised, I might add.
Well, I just watched Obama's news conference, and he said, " there will no troops involved whatsoever,we will follow the mandate set out by the UN only and that is to preserve civilian lives". So you can figure air to ground will most likely be used against artillery and tanks, especially if their firing on the cities.
So, lets see if he's a big fat liar.
