Libya VI

Stockholm wrote:

Even though in recent years he had cynically tried to ingratiate himself with "the west", I get the impression that some people still have a nostaligic soft spots in their hearts for Gadhafi. They remember the good old days when he ran training camps in Libya for the IRA, the Red Brigades and the Baader-Meinhof gang and when he was amusing himself ordering his agents to plant bombs on commercial airplanes...I think this is why I see such mixed emotions about Gadhafi, some people just can't decide whether he's "the good guy" or not.

I think it's the belief of some that "Western Countries" are the enemy, so anything they do is seen through that prism. It seems more likely than any love/long lost or not for Gadhafi 

NDPP wrote:

this intervention is neither 'humanitarian', nor 'liberating'. This is a war crime. The 'supreme' war crime. There is no lawful or ethical basis for it. If the people of Libya, perhaps even neighbours like 'revolutionary' Egypt, wish to lend support, to Libyan popular resistance, let them. Canada has no good reason for participating in this vile imperialist adventure for blood, oil and geopolitical advantage.

You're asking people who started out with mid-power guns, and no formal military training, to run up against a state-sanctioned army, with tanks, fighters and bomber.

The intervention has as much legal authority as is concievable. Most countries on the planet are in favour of it. The Arab League is in favour of it. The African Union is in favour of it. The UN Security Council, who almost never agree on anything, are in favour of it. 

The intervention also meets every ethical ground concievable as well.

Just cause - Gaddafi's oppression and threats of the elimination of resistance fighters in Benghazi and other rebel held cities constitute a grave public evil.

Legitimate Authority - UN, Arab League, African Union

Probability of Success - With the UN taking air suporiority, they can effectly protect rebel fighters and the cities they hold.

Last Resort - Many, at this point, were saying that the protesters were 72 hours from being, as Gaddafi himself put it "cleansed"

Proportionality - A no-fly zone/air support will do far more good than harm in the long run. 

(misread Rebeeca's comment... whoops)

VanGoghs Ear wrote:

Stockholm wrote:

Even though in recent years he had cynically tried to ingratiate himself with "the west", I get the impression that some people still have a nostaligic soft spots in their hearts for Gadhafi. They remember the good old days when he ran training camps in Libya for the IRA, the Red Brigades and the Baader-Meinhof gang and when he was amusing himself ordering his agents to plant bombs on commercial airplanes...I think this is why I see such mixed emotions about Gadhafi, some people just can't decide whether he's "the good guy" or not.

I think it's the belief of some that "Western Countries" are the enemy, so anything they do is seen through that prism. It seems more likely than any love/long lost or not for Gadhafi.

And thus, alot of posters here will latch on to anyone who is willing to make broad denouncements of western imperialism, even if the human rights records of these rulers range from questionable to Stalin-esqe. I'd like these people to look at Al-Jazeera. They provide very good coverage from a democratic and West-skeptical point of view.

German Left Party Leader Votes in Favour of Military Intervention in Libya

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/mar2011/left-m19.shtml

"Handel's justifications reveals more than he intended. Both he and the Left Party faction in the EU parliament are in fundamental accord with all other parties regarding punitive measures against Libya designed to safeguard European interests in the oil-rich country and to stifle revolution throughout the Arab world.

The leadership of Libya's National Transitional Council consists of former ministers of Gaddafi who turned their backs on him at the last minute and immediately guaranteed the country's contracts with international oil companies. They have as little to offer the impoverished masses of Libya as Gaddafi in Tripoli.

Bisky's vote to support military intervention in Libya is an important lesson for all those seeking to oppose militarism and social attacks in North Africa and Europe. When the interests of the ruling class are seriously threatened, it can rely on Bisky and the Left Party. These pseudo-left forces will play the same role in the near future in Europe as social resistance develops."

beware of the same treachery by 'pseudo-left forces' here in Canada.

Stockholm wrote:

I think this is why I see such mixed emotions about Gadhafi, some people just can't decide whether he's "the good guy" or not.

If your theory was correct (your ludicrous theory, I might add), then you'd have to explain why the proponents of non-intervention also had soft spots for Saddam Hussein and the Taliban. You just can't grasp a viewpoint that says that we should not be grovelling at the feet of imperial powers to go bring democracy/freedom/safety to any sovereign country - can you? There have to be ulterior motives, which become increasingly impossible to explain.

VectoV wrote:

That is a pretty weak analogy. Big difference between peoples right to assembly being trampled on and people beiing wholesale slaughtered.

Tell me something - are the Libyan opposition forces armed, or not? Are two sides actually shooting at each other, or is one side simply slaughtering unarmed civilians? Or do you know? Or care?

VanGoghs Ear wrote:

I think it's the belief of some that "Western Countries" are the enemy, so anything they do is seen through that prism.

I'd feel more comfortable with that prism than with yours, which is the mirror image.

RT: French Warplanes Over Libya (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/international-military-action-libya/

French military jets have fired the first foreign shots in Libya, targeting military vehicles as enforcement began of the UN imposed no-fly zone. A French plane fired the first shot in Libya at 1645 GMT. A vehicle that was providing assistance to the Libyan military was the target. According to the latest unconfirmed reports, another 3 vehicles have been attacked.."

RT: Foreign Intervention in Libya: Creation of 4th War Theater (and vid)

http://tv.globalresearch.ca/2011/03/foreign-intervention-libya-creation-...

"Western nations are interested in Libyan oil and other resources, not protecting the people and that is why they care more about the fight in Libya than elsewhere in the Arab world."

CBC is reporting that most people at a rally for Libya in downtown Toronto support Canada's role and a no-fly zone, even though signs held on camera  clearly stated 'no western intervention'.

Jingles nails it in #46 - how quickly we are stampeded into selfserving military exploits on insufficient information! I see a lot of smoke all this talk of a popular uprising, rebellion, people's war, blah blah but who among us has any real knowledge of the forces in play here? We just take it on faith that this is a popular uprising and not political opportunism on the part of disgruntled factions or tribal interests? A few fuzzy reports far from the frontlines and it's all good? Its amazing there is any swampland left in Florida!

The west sure as shit doesn't give a damn about the Libyan people, they want a destabilized or weakened regime so they can bend it to their oil-hungry will, its as simple as that. And once again, Canada is going to get EVIL smeared all over its sordid self, nice one Stevie and the rest of our pathetic political (choke) 'leadership'.

Nice Voltaire quote upthread!

Rebecca West wrote:

we really should be concentrating on getting aid to victims of the conflict.

How? Airdrops? Drive it in from Egypt? Send ships to Benghazi? All of those methods entail risks that Gadhaffi will attack them, unless they are defended by people with big guns and planes.

There are so many dictators it is creating an unsustainable burden on white men everywhere.  How will we ever save everyone in the world and give them the benefit of our civilization?  

I can't tell if the real question is why Libya or which country is next.  How many countries will NATO protect by destroying their infrastructure?  It should be good business for SNC Lavalin.  That should be reason enough for Canada to be there protecting the people of Libya.  

The Hens were fed up. Fox lay in the corner of the henhouse, and grinned through bloody teeth. "We must rise up and defeat Fox", said Hen, "for we shall never be free while he's in here, and our chicks will never be safe!"

Fox grinned through bloody teeth. "Sister Hen" he said, "Don't concern yourself with such matters. Lay eggs, see that I am fed, and I will protect you from harm"

Hen had had enough. One morning, while Fox slept, the hens attacked. But what could they do, with stunted beak and wing, to defeat Fox, whose teeth gnashed and spit blood and feathers?

"We must have help", said Hen.

"Someone help Sister Hen!" cried Rat, looking through the boards at the fight inside. "Fox will kill them all!" Rat gnashed his teeth with worry, but his beady eyes beheld the eggs.

"We must help Sister Hen!" cried Badger. "There is much we can do to stop Fox". She shed tears and gnashed her teeth, and her black eyes beheld the chicks.

"We will help Sister Hen" cried Wolf. "My pack and I have the tools to stop it. We shall ask our Sister Bobcat, and our Brother Eagle to help us save the coop! For Hen shall live in freedom, and never more fear Fox's gnashing teeth." And their cold, white eyes beheld the warm nests within.

So Fox was vanquished. And Wolf, and Bobcat, and Eagle, and Badger, and Rat, rested contentedly and righteously, their teeth red with blood, and their beds soft with feather.

If this provides the defence Libyan democrats need to win - and does only that - I can deal with it.

10 year-long medieval siege followed by a good shellacking and military occupation. It'll be a repeat of the bloodbaths in Iraq and Afghanistan. They'll air lift some al-CIA'da to Libya from Central Asia and North Africa, like they did when creating militant Islamic bases in Bosnia and Macedonia and installing a criminal narco administration in Kosovo.

Doug wrote:

If this provides the defence Libyan democrats need to win - and does only that - I can deal with it.

That's pretty well my view as well.

Jingles wrote:

The Hens were fed up. Fox lay in the corner of the henhouse, and grinned through bloody teeth. "We must rise up and defeat Fox", said Hen, "for we shall never be free while he's in here, and our chicks will never be safe!"

Fox grinned through bloody teeth. "Sister Hen" he said, "Don't concern yourself with such matters. Lay eggs, see that I am fed, and I will protect you from harm"

Hen had had enough. One morning, while Fox slept, the hens attacked. But what could they do, with stunted beak and wing, to defeat Fox, whose teeth gnashed and spit blood and feathers?

"We must have help", said Hen.

"Someone help Sister Hen!" cried Rat, looking through the boards at the fight inside. "Fox will kill them all!" Rat gnashed his teeth with worry, but his beady eyes beheld the eggs.

"We must help Sister Hen!" cried Badger. "There is much we can do to stop Fox". She shed tears and gnashed her teeth, and her black eyes beheld the chicks.

"We will help Sister Hen" cried Wolf. "My pack and I have the tools to stop it. We shall ask our Sister Bobcat, and our Brother Eagle to help us save the coop! For Hen shall live in freedom, and never more fear Fox's gnashing teeth." And their cold, white eyes beheld the warm nests within.

So Fox was vanquished. And Wolf, and Bobcat, and Eagle, and Badger, and Rat, rested contentedly and righteously, their teeth red with blood, and their beds soft with feather.

Have you ever thought about writing as a profession?

Except they'll have to murder thousands of resistance fighters and Libyan politicians, doctors, teachers, etc first before they seize control of the oil fields and impose USsA's brand of dollar democracy on the most well off people in Africa. Another bloodbath like Iraq to install a corrupt regime friendly to the corporatocracy.

The war on democracy continues, and our vicious toadies in Canadian Government are there waiting with baited breath for further instructions from Warshington.

Quote:

I do think that, under the right cirucmstance, a coalition of powers does have the right to protect a civilian population that faces the danger of massive human rights violations, and possibly just getting slaughtered.

What about Palestine, Yemen, Saudi Arabia and Bahrain? Why does Libya deserve such special treatment?

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Fidel wrote:

10 year-long medieval siege followed by a good shellacking and military occupation. It'll be a repeat of the bloodbaths in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's funny that you say that, since the death toll in Libya has, at this point, reached about 1/3 of that in Afghanistan. Difference is, while the War in Afghanistan has had 10 years to reach that number, Libya crossed the 10,000 mark in two weeks.

Bullshit and exaggeration is not your talent. They never found any "WMD" in Iraq either. Why? Because that was Yanqui bullshit, too.  Like "nurse Nayirah" in Kuwait. And there were staged massacres in the former Yugoslavia Nazi Germany style as well.

The Gladio Gang Inc. are so full of shit that their eyes must be a deep brown by now and oozing out their ears and eye sockets.

Fidel wrote:

All I'm seeing on CBC are pro Gadaffi supporters in the streets...

Mostly because the anti-Gaddafi supporters are getting shot by the army.

I think, at this point, arguing is getting a little futile. Over the next couple of months, we'll see which one of our points of view is vindicated.

If Libya starts flying the American flag above their capitol, starves the country, butchers civilians, and literally steals thier oil, then I guess your right.

If NATO commits ground troops and Libya is getting thrown into a years-long quagmire where tens of thousands are getting killed then you're partially right, and I'm certainly wrong.

If the protesters/National Council take over and democratize Libya, then I'm right, and you'll claim that Obama is pulling the strings behind the scenes somehow.

Fidel wrote:

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Fidel wrote:

10 year-long medieval siege followed by a good shellacking and military occupation. It'll be a repeat of the bloodbaths in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's funny that you say that, since the death toll in Libya has, at this point, reached about 1/3 of that in Afghanistan. Difference is, while the War in Afghanistan has had 10 years to reach that number, Libya crossed the 10,000 mark in two weeks.

Bullshit and exaggeration is not your talent. They never found any "WMD" in Iraq either. Why? Because that was Yanqui bullshit, too.  Like "nurse Nayirah" in Kuwait. And there were staged massacres in the former Yugoslavia Nazi Germany style as well.

The Gladio Gang Inc. are so full of shit that their eyes must be a deep brown by now and oozing out their ears and eye sockets.

Actually, Fidel. That shit is an Arab-based source from the International Criminal Court.

VectoV wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Except they'll have to murder thousands of resistance fighters and Libyan politicians, doctors, teachers, etc first before they seize control of the oil fields and impose USsA's brand of dollar democracy on the most well off people in Africa.

Oh yes...well off under an iron fist, always looking over your shoulder, having to be very careful about what you say and to whom. Yeah, that could be categorized as well off in a really long stretch of the imagination.

None of our vicious toadies in Ottawa nor their imperial masters in Warshington give a shit about Africans. They didn't say shit about Uncle Sam's proxies Rwanda and Uganda slaughtering 5 million Congolese since 1998. That's an ongoing holocaust in the name of the corporatocracy.

No, Libyans are not the most oppressed people in Africa. According to the [url=http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/]UN HDI[/url] for 2010, Libya is at the top of the list for human development in Africa.

The only rights to be liberated in Libya are Libyans from their birth rights to Libyan oil.