Libya VII

The previous thread mistakenly states the African Union supports the No-Fly Zone, so have retrieved this posted earlier -  reposting Prof Richard Falk's AJ piece on illegality of intervention, also

African Union Rejects Foreign Intrusion

http://www.emnnews.com/2011/03/12/arab-league-asks-for-no-fly-zone-over-...

"The African Union on Friday, rejected any military intervention in Libya, urging the international community to observe the rules of International Law and find a non-military intervention strategy to end the crisis. Ramtane Lamamra, the AU Commissioner for Peace and Security, in a reaction said:

'The council reaffirms its firm commitment to the respect of the unity and territorial integrity of Libya, as well as its rejection of any form of foreign military intervention."

Kicking the Intervention Habit   by Richard Falk

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/03/201138143448786661....

"The imperial mentality is not inclined to discuss the question of legality, much less show behavioral respect for the constraints embedded in international law. With respect to Libya, we need to take into account the fact that the Gaddafi government, however distasteful on humanitarian grounds, remains the lawful diplomatic representative of a sovereign state, and any international use of force even by the UN, much less a state or group of states, would constitute an unlawful intervention in the internal affairs of a sovereign state, prohibited by Article 2(7) of the UN Charter..."

@ Fidel...

Re. post 105....

Deprogramming???

Are trying to channel Lenny Bloom (Nelson Thall) or Spaceman (Gary Bell)???

Quote:

The butchery launched on Libya, codenamed "Odyssey Dawn" will mimic the conduct of the famous Greek seafarer in his return to Ithika. All those who had anything to do with anything will be slaughtered. Even those who had nothing to do with anything will be slaughtered. In fact, those who question the slaughter ... will be ...

It's about democracy and liberating Libyans from their oil! God save the corporatocracy!  Rock on!

N.Beltov wrote:

Quote:

The butchery launched on Libya, codenamed "Odyssey Dawn" will mimic the conduct of the famous Greek seafarer in his return to Ithika. All those who had anything to do with anything will be slaughtered. Even those who had nothing to do with anything will be slaughtered. In fact, those who question the slaughter ... will be ...

So are the Libyans more dead when the West "slaughters' them than when Gaddafi does?

Babble is home to gloaters of violence whenever such events take place. They should pay a fee for the privilege.

Fidel wrote:

I dunno. What does Fox say about it? If you ask me I think our boyz are just there to do a job for Generals Exxon and BP.

I don't watch empty headed flag waving television...

By the way,I'll take your flippant obfuscation of an answer as an unequivocal "YES!"...And that you'l be tuning in tonight after the hockey game,Right??

Seeing as that's the case,I'll take it you know about the Pike/Mazzini letters??

Therefore,why are shocked this is happening?

What are you talking about? Unlike those unruly street thugs in Cairo and Manama trying to overthrow despots democratically appointed many years ago, peaceful protesters in Benghazi are merely trying to bring in another velvet  revolution by comparison. Ah I'm just messin with ya.

Libyan rebs seem to be doing just fine with the weapons smuggled in from the west in violation of the resolution and air support from the Luftwaffe. I wouldn't fret none if I were you. What's on Fox?

I'm sorta curious as to how many Libyans killed by NATO is enough ... for the gloaters of violence and cheerleaders of death. You know who you are. 100? 1,000? 10,000? 1,000,000? How many is enough? How much profit from military sales is enough?

The cheerleaders of death will make themselves scarce once the horrific consequences of the NATO atrocities become apparent. And the prescience of Fidel Castro Ruz and Hugo Chavez Frias in terms of the entirely predictable NATO war crimes will also be apparent.

The cheerleaders of non-intervention can sleep well because the deaths of Libyans at Gaddaffi's hand are merely an 'internal struggle'.

There was a weak sentiment about an 'international brigade' of freedom fighters from the ranks of the non-interventionists but how do these amateurs intend to fight Gaddaffi's military?

Air power won't defeat Gaddaffi but it will level the playing field for the insurgents. And save lives from the murdering despot.

Ok, so 48 dead and 150 injured civilians are OK with you. How many is enough? And what happens when the number of NATO victims exceeds the number of Gadaffi victims? You'll be 'sorry"?

So how many dead Libyan children by NATO is enough? I'm curious. ETA: in iraq we're talking 500,000.

you're not answering the question. How many dead Libyans - killed by NATO - is OK by you? That's the question.

N.Beltov wrote:

you're not answering the question. How many dead Libyans - killed by NATO - is OK by you? That's the question.

So when did you stop beating your wife?

N.Beltov wrote:

you're not answering the question. How many dead Libyans - killed by NATO - is OK by you? That's the question.

Is it possible for you to even conceive that the NATO strikes may slow Gaddafi's forces and save lives? Do you even count those killed by Gaddafi as victims?

Unionist wrote:

Freedom 55 wrote:

N.Beltov wrote:

So how many dead Libyan children by NATO is enough? I'm curious. ETA: in iraq we're talking 500,000.

 

What is it that you're trying to get people to say exactly?

Here's what I think he's trying to get people to say (if I'm wrong, oh well, he can speak for himself).

Some people here are waving flags and chanting the praises of the cruise missiles and fighter jets attacking Libya. They do so ostensibly for the sole reason that this will help save innocent Libyans. I think it's fair to ask of these champions of the "attack Libya to save Libyans" partisans the same question one may have asked of the U.S. in its lying fraudulent pretexts for the sanctions against Iraq, the no-fly zones, and then the all-out invasion: If you're doing this to save people from their government, what's the tipping point? How many corpses are you prepared to create in order to avoid other corpses (or maybe the same ones)?

I think it's a fair question to ask of those that have just joined the Cameron-Sarkozy-Obama-Harper-save-the-Libyan-people Fan Club. Eminently fair.

 

So what's your solution? Wait until Gaddafi has killed every man, woman and child that stood against him, so at least your hands aren't stained with blood?

cynic wrote:

 

So what's your solution? Wait until Gaddafi has killed every man, woman and child that stood against him, so at least your hands aren't stained with blood?

Actually, my solution, when reading hysterical bullshit like yours, is to remind myself of those that said exactly the same things to justify the invasion of Iraq. There is no way I will discuss or debate with the likes of you. I have raised my "solution" in rabble reactions. This will be an important question for this discussion board to grapple with.

Where are these numbers coming from for the huge numbers of people that Qaddaffi has killed? 

What basis for the hysterical predictions of how many he is going to kill.  A few days ago I received and email petition request to stop a half million deaths by Q.  Now above I have every man, woman and child. What's the basis for this?

People just make shit up. Stay calm. Be brave. Wait for the signs.

NDPP wrote:

GMD intervention here - [Get my drift?] Please stop mistakenly citing nonsense about Rwanda. This is not the first time it has been done here despite the fact the ' Master' narrative of Rwanda has now been decisively discredited and revealed to be a US backed regime change operation. The only valid point of citing Rwanda would be that, like Libya, it was not, as styled, a 'humanitarian intervention', and also, that both Canada and the UN were deeply complicit:

The Rwanda Genocide Fabrication  - by Keith Harmon Snow

http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/04/the-rwanda-genocide-fabrication/

..."key to the operation were 'former' Special Operations Forces (Ronco Company) providing military equipment and ferrying RPA troops from Uganda to Rwanda; the Pentagon's logistical and communications support; Defense Intelligence Agency and CIA operations. Canadian General Romeo Dallaire, commander of the United Nations Assistance Mission in Rwanda (UNAMIR) was also collaborating with the RPF/A, serving the Pentagon interest..

Further, on 9 April, three days after the so-called 'mysterious plane crash' where Burundi's President Cyprien Ntaryamira and President Habyorimana were assassinated, some 330 US Marines landed at Bujumbura's airport in Burundi, ostensibly to 'rescue Americans' in Rwanda. More centrally however - Uganda - with US trained forces and US supplied weaponry - launched its war against Rwanda as a proxy force for the United States of America. The result was a coup d'etat: we won."

[GMD intervention ends - please see 'African Affairs' thread for more if interested. - back to Libya and ANOTHER 'humanitarian intervention..]

To the doubters out there:

I told you our friend NDPP would be able to inform us and provide at (at least one) link(s) about what actually occurred during the Rwandan genocide.

NDPP wrote:

Libya: Cheerleaders For Humanitarian Intervention  by Michael Wiesberg

http://en.m4.cn/archives/6159.html

"The pro-intervention propaganda directed at Libya has a very concrete goal: namely to prevent a worst-case scenario (at least as perceived by the West) by any and all means. That worst case scenario is that Gadhafi, who the EU again demanded step down last week, keeps his hold on power. What happens to all that Libyan oil in such an event?

In a speech Gadhafi gave in early March, he hinted he would encourage Chinese and Indian oil companies to take over the operation of Western oil companies in Libya. It's totally unimaginable that the West, especially the US, would stand idly by and watch Gadhafi hand out slices of the Libyan petroleum cake to upstarts from China and India.."

Especially since China has been winning lucrative mining contracts in Afghanistan for valuable strategic minerals (like copper, for example) while the U.S.A. has been draining its economy by fighting a war in Afghanistan its losing.

Roscoe wrote:

The cheerleaders of non-intervention can sleep well because the deaths of Libyans at Gaddaffi's hand are merely an 'internal struggle'.

There was a weak sentiment about an 'international brigade' of freedom fighters from the ranks of the non-interventionists but how do these amateurs intend to fight Gaddaffi's military?

The same way the underequiped, undertrained Libyan Army that has sided with the Libertarias.

Roscoe wrote:

Air power won't defeat Gaddaffi but it will level the playing field for the insurgents. And save lives from the murdering despot.

Before the French and soon to follow U.S., U.K., Canadian, etc., Air Forces aircraft intervened, the playing field was already starting to level out.

Gadhafi force's supply lines were stretched and vulnerable to attack. Their aircraft, artillery and tanks were rendered near useless by the FIBUA (fighting in built up areas) that the impending Battles of Tobruk and Benghazi posed. Tobruk and Benghazi are ports. The Libertarias could be very easily supplied while Gadhafi's forces would have much greater difficulty bringing (and protecting their supplies along the way) their supplies to the front(s).

As the (now hypothetical) Battles of Tobruk and Benghazi dragged on, there is also the question of what would the anti-Gadhafi and other Libyan tribes in the countryside do.

Nothing also compels one to reject out of hand the prospect of International Brigades of Libertarias armed by local weapons dealers crossing over from the border states and moving up the countryside to add to the Gadhafi force's woes.

'Capitalism Is in Terminal Decay': Interview with Ralph Schoenman

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/170726.html

" I think we need to be clear that the immediate consequence of a no-fly zone or any form of intervention of a military character on the part of the United States and the capitalist countries is of no benefit or interest to those who want to defend the sovereignty and independence of Libya, and, for that matter, the future of a revolutionary struggle against the regime of Gaddafi..."

more, earlier interviews of Shoenman on Libya

Ralph Schoenman on Libya Revolution (vid)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdgG7PEaUo4&feature=related

US Imperialism Will Push Them Into Libya's War (vid)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB-ky7OJq2Q&NR=1

Frmrsldr wrote:

welder wrote:

And no amount of name calling from the morally bankrupt pacifists will change that...

Col. Khaddaffi is no pacifist...Col. Khaddaffi was going to turn Eastern Libya into a blood soaked killing field...Nevermind he tens of thousands that got out of Libya while they could...

This seems to be lost on the "anti-imperialists"...(Is that code for ,"If it does'nt have the Marx/Engels stamp of approval,it's got to be bad?)

Speaking for myself, I am not a pacifist.

I am anti-war/anti-interventionist and anti American Empire, pro American Republic. "America should not be too willing to join entangling alliances and foreign wars."

The Libyan people have every right to defend themselves.

Which is precisely what they have been doing ever since Gadhafi started his war against them.

I'm not calling you a pacifist...And I understand your position.I actually think your gun running theory might have worked if there was more time...

But there  was'nt.

Now,how this turns out is certainly up for debate.What is not up for debate is the inevitable outcome if Col. Khaddaffi was allowed to go to all the way to the Egypt border...I don't think there is any doubt what would have happened...Mass death.

N.Beltov wrote:

So how many dead Libyan children by NATO is enough? I'm curious. ETA: in iraq we're talking 500,000. 

Here's to hoping there are no Madeleine Albright fans here to respond.