rabble.ca's vegan challenge II

I find your mockery troublesome Boom Boom.  Perhaps, some tolerance?

Mocking, even when it's so easy, is unworthy of you my friend. 

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Aside from taking a shot at Paul McCartney and PETA in the original thread and posting two tasteless vegan (that's a pun) jokes...

Sorry, but perhaps the lack of blood and flesh in my diet has slowed my brain activity, but where's the pun in all that?

By the way, I've posted that joke here before:

Q:  How many vegetarians does it take...

A: One to screw in the lightbulb, and one to check the label for ingredients.

Having to do this on purt'near every trip to the grocery store isn't as funny as it might seem.  Walk a mile in my man-made fibre shoes, boomer.

Okay, just forget I ever said it. My humour totally escapes me, sometimes.

Frozen vegetables are as nutritious as fresh.  And much cheaper and easier to store.

I wonder if it has occurred to those dietary tyrranosaurs (with their great big fangs) that by eating a BLT they are 2/3 vegan right there.

Geez, they might as well be these guys.

Hi babble! ((waves)). I can't resist a good discussion on food issues.

The vegan challenge combines this statement:

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Going vegan is one of the strongest ways most of us can contribute to Earth Week

... with this one:

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For example, buy a cored pineapple, when you get home cut it into strips and then into chunks from that, put it back in the container it came in ...

... which I'm afraid illustrates the problems inherent in not taking a broader view of food politics and environmental impact. A pineapple would likely be grown in an environmentally destructive fashion; at the very least, it's worth noting that pineapple plantations have been the cause of a great deal of rainforest destruction and displacement of indigenous people ... and then there are pesticide/fertilizer issues, and poor labour practices. Caveat emptor on any tropical fruit, for those reasons. As well as transportation. A pineapple needs to travel thousands of kilometres to reach Canada. Note, too, that the recommended purchase is an already-cored pineapple (requires refrigeration) in a container (almost certainly disposable plastic). The environmental problems pile up.

Food production, including animal-derived food, is certainly an environmental concern. And North Americans consume a highly unsustainable amount of animal products, no question.

But food production is a complex issue with many different facets, as some excellent posts on the previous thread pointed out. This vegan challenge strikes me as the sort of well-meaning initiative like Earth Hour or the plastic bag tax, which ideally encourages environmental behaviour change, but in the absence of education and critical analysis can result in a complacent feeling of "okay, yay, now I've done my bit!"

Item: I loooooove seeing people in grocery stores religiously toting in their canvas bags, only to fill them with processed food that is triply-packaged in plastic, cardboard and plastic wrap. Quite the discontinuity, no? Sort of like the one above.

As an alternative/as well as doing the vegan challenge, people might consider some or all of the following:

- Now that we're in a federal election, asking your candidates if elected what actions they will take to make food production and distribution more sustainable. Raise it as a political issue and it becomes a political issue.

- Lobbying federal and provincial agriculture ministries to support local organic food production, including providing transition funding (the minimum three years of transition prior to organic certification can be a real financial deterrent for farmers).

- Lobbying grocery chains to label foods based on distance travelled - "Product of USA" could be 100 kms or 3000 kms.

- Asking your own grocery stores to source local and organic food. I know someone who did that for eggs, the store got them in, they were always sold out!

- Lobbying food manufacturers and federal regulators to mandate a carbon footprint calculation on processed food labels.

- Lobbying governments to cease and desist from promoting food-derived biofuels. That's just obscene on so many levels.

- Joining a CSA or other local farming support group.

- Learning more about food politics. Someone mentioned Michael Pollan, his books are a good place to start.

- Growing our own food if we can. Eating as locally as we can. Eating as seasonally as we can.

- If you're eating out, supporting restaurants that source local and sustainably produced food. Chefs that have been doing so are trailblazers and generate fabulous publicity.

- If you're buying imported food, including produce, trying to find out if it's sustainably produced using fair labour practices. If it's hard to find out, contact the grocer, importer, and production company, and say so.

- Avoiding processed food as much as you can, no matter what it's made of (organic chocolate chip cookies have almost the same enviro ding as regular ones).

- Eschewing bottled water and other drinks that require bottling/packaging/transportation.

- Educating ourselves and others about other food issues ranging from farming practices to seafood. Supporting initiatives that promote production and labelling of sustainable food.

- Supporting NGOs that are working on these issues.

- And yeah, being moderate in our meat consumption and selective about its source. Sustainably produced meat is more expensive (and harder to find) but budgeting for less meat makes it more affordable.

And so on. There's lots more. Any or all of these can help, but the political work probably gives you more bang for your buck than making an individual eating choice for a week. Spend a week doing some of the above lobbying work and then I think some pats on the back are in order!

Tehanu wrote:

Hi babble! ((waves)). I can't resist a good discussion on food issues.

As an alternative/as well as doing the vegan challenge, people might consider some or all of the following:

- Now that we're in a federal election, asking your candidates if elected what actions they will take to make food production and distribution more sustainable. Raise it as a political issue and it becomes a political issue.

- Lobbying federal and provincial agriculture ministries to support local organic food production, including providing transition funding (the minimum three years of transition prior to organic certification can be a real financial deterrent for farmers).

- Lobbying grocery chains to label foods based on distance travelled - "Product of USA" could be 100 kms or 3000 kms.

- Asking your own grocery stores to source local and organic food. I know someone who did that for eggs, the store got them in, they were always sold out!

- Lobbying food manufacturers and federal regulators to mandate a carbon footprint calculation on processed food labels.

- Lobbying governments to cease and desist from promoting food-derived biofuels. That's just obscene on so many levels.

- Joining a CSA or other local farming support group.

- Learning more about food politics. Someone mentioned Michael Pollan, his books are a good place to start.

- Growing our own food if we can. Eating as locally as we can. Eating as seasonally as we can.

- If you're eating out, supporting restaurants that source local and sustainably produced food. Chefs that have been doing so are trailblazers and generate fabulous publicity.

- If you're buying imported food, including produce, trying to find out if it's sustainably produced using fair labour practices. If it's hard to find out, contact the grocer, importer, and production company, and say so.

- Avoiding processed food as much as you can, no matter what it's made of (organic chocolate chip cookies have almost the same enviro ding as regular ones).

- Eschewing bottled water and other drinks that require bottling/packaging/transportation.

- Educating ourselves and others about other food issues ranging from farming practices to seafood. Supporting initiatives that promote production and labelling of sustainable food.

- Supporting NGOs that are working on these issues.

- And yeah, being moderate in our meat consumption and selective about its source. Sustainably produced meat is more expensive (and harder to find) but budgeting for less meat makes it more affordable.

And so on. There's lots more. Any or all of these can help, but the political work probably gives you more bang for your buck than making an individual eating choice for a week. Spend a week doing some of the above lobbying work and then I think some pats on the back are in order!

 

Fantastic post.  

I want to add two things directly-

1.  Join the NFU (National Farmers Union) as an Associate member - that's the non-farmer category.   You will get their magazine, support their work and hear from voices on the frontlines of agricultural sustainabilty in Canada - and you will get to find out about their work with Via Campesina on international food issues

2.  Since there is an election on right now donate to the campaigns of Nettie Weibe (former national President of the NFU) and Grant Robertson (former Ontario President of the NFU) -or both if you can.   Having these two amazing people in the House taking on big-agri from a down to earth farmer perspective would do a great deal to forward the cause of sustainable food production.

ETA

I think I remember OO mentioning that Glen Tait a former NFU National Board member - who served with Grant Robertson I think too - was running against Gerry Ritz.

I don't support most vegan arguments, they often neglect to mention that there are many farms that raise animals in a humane way. It's up to the consumer to educate themselves and figure out whether they support those practices or not. Cutting out meat entirely doesn't necessarily solve anything, in fact it sort of avoids dealing with the issue of conventional meat production and slaughter altogether.

Check out Nicolette Hahn Niman's book, "Righteous Porkchop: Finding A Life And Good Food Beyond Factory Farms". She argues that eating humanely-raised, sustainable meat is not necessarily less "eco-friendly" than going vegetarian or vegan. She herself is a vegetarian but she also raises animals for meat.

I am also a farmer, Life, and agree with everything you've said so far. Animals are absolutely essential to creating and maintaining a sustainable closed-system in farming.

And besides, we all know about the controversy surrounding soy production, which I could also get into but others have already done so, very articulately, I might add. My point is that there is no easy, blanket solution to a problem as deep-seated as our current conventional system of meat production and slaughter. My advice to rabble readers is to go out and find out for themselves how their meat is produced and, for that matter, how all their food is produced.
just sayin'.

Discussing veganism as a way to help the planet seems to me to ignore the fact that if you can cut 50% of the meat you eat out of your diet then that's 50% better than if you didn't, and if you can cut 90% of the meat you eat out of your diet then that's 90% better and so on.

Why start with a full, 100% commitment that even many vegetarians have difficulty sticking with?  Why set people up for failure, just to maintain some kind of ideological purity?  If your real goal is to help the planet, wouldn't it make more sense to urge people to set realistic goals for themselves instead of directing them to a rigid ideology wherein if you eat something sweetened with honey you've already failed?

Not to mention the fact that veganism isn't natural?  ;)

Snert wrote:

Why start with a full, 100% commitment that even many vegetarians have difficulty sticking with?

That made me laugh.  Most vegetarians I know have no problem not eating meat...that's what makes them vegetarians :)

Catchfire wrote:

Aren't we all seeking ideological purity?

Nope.  Some of us are seeking a balance where the ideological and the practical can meet.  Or at least I am - even if it's just me, that scuttles "all".  ;-)

@24

I have a lot of admiration for those with the self-discipline to go veggie or vegan after having gone through most of a lifetime of eating meat. I knock meat out of my diet in mid-summer when the veggies are ready for picking in my garden and the selection of veggies and fruits is better at our two small stores, and generally I feel lighter and healthier. That last about three months of the year.

Presumably, organizers would hope that a few people change their eating habits as a result, or else you've got the same laughable outcomes that Earth Day does (a few people turn their lights off for an hour, feel like they've saved the planet, return to running the dishwasher for two forks).

Again, if this was really about saving the planet, a simple vegetarian diet would be more than enough to get most North Americans having to think about what they're eating.  And since a simple vegetarian diet doesn't tell you you're a big loser if you fail to source out the beer that isn't filtered using bone charcoal, maybe some people would stay on. 

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You clearly have no idea what a full, 100% commitment would mean.

I've heard tales.

I'll say it once more though I realize it's probably futile: Most vegans are vegans because "cruelty to animal" concerns. That's the core of it. All the rest is just supplementary arguments some people use. But of course people prefer to discuss the supplementary arguments. (Snert's "cute and cuddly" remark was insulting but he does see this.)

Another thing before I leave for work: it's exceedingly difficult to be a fully consistent vegan. I am not a fully consistent vegan because it would take too much time and money. (I live in rural Saskatchewan.) What I do is not eat animal products produced by processes that cause significant suffering to the animals. The farmers I know generally treat their animals well. If the same farmers did the slaughtering, I'd be happier. But in general they don't. (I realize some do.) And socially, I am vegetarian rather than vegan, because people don't know how to cook for vegans. I appreciate their willingness to accommodate my vegetarianism and I don't ask for more, though my closest friends do cook vegan for me, out of respect and friendship, but without my asking that they do so.

And yes, I realize vegans irritate a lot of people. But a lot of you here hold beliefs that profoundly irritate a lot of people. Surely you know that  

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 I guess if we could get everyone to go without bacon on their double cheeseburger that would be hte way to go?

I'm sure you could set the bar a bit higher than that. How about cutting your meat intake by half?

I would think that if people actually sustained a change like that it would have a huge impact on the environment, etc.

Or, everyone can try their darndest to take a zero tolerance approach to their own diet, give that shit up once the week is over, and go back to business as usual.

I'll be honest: I think that "sustainability" and "the environment" are just convenient talking points for vegans... easier sells than animal rights and morality. So when I see "go vegan" as a proposed initiative to "get people thinking and talking" I immediately wonder why it needs to be vegan. Is it really about the environment, and not the cute and cuddly animals?

edited to add:  Looks like the rabble Vegan Challenge links to the Toronto Vegetarian Association's "Veggie Challenge" which doesn't expect the perfect rigour of a vegan.  They even say "Finally, don't get too hung up on details. The important thing is to do your best to eat a vegetarian or vegan diet, and have fun experimenting with all the delicious veggie options out there."

If you just want to do right by the planet, without having to convert to a new religion, take a look at http://www.veggiechallenge.com .. they seem a bit more realistic about it all.

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If the best you can do in a challenge like this is to cut your meat intake in half, don't worry, we'll still give you a pat on the back. 

Why bother? Taking part in a "Vegan" challenge while eating even the tiniest scrap of meat would be as futile as taking part in the "Abstinence" challenge starting with a handjob or the "Temperence" challenge, as discussed over a few Jager shots. Immediate disqualification.

That's kind of my point. I really get the sense that the organizers were thinking of their own vegan beliefs, more than the effectiveness of a challenge like this, when they chose to take the "Veggie" challenge and make it all-or-nothing.

Are you vegetarian, or vegan?

Damned, shmamned, I'm a G.B. Shaw vegetarian: "I prefer not to dine on corpses."

Oh, but would you wear one??  Would you enslave a bee, Al-Q?  Would you steal milk from a baby cow?

These are all sins, sinner.

al-Qa'bong wrote:

Damned, shmamned, I'm a G.B. Shaw vegetarian: "I prefer not to dine on corpses."

Well and good - but you're still a bad, bad environmentalist for eating eggs and cheese.

Can I also point out that, contrary to the complaints about obnoxious omnivores in the veg thread, you're being a lot more confrontational about my food choices than I am about yours?  You can knock it off any time now.

al-Qa'bong wrote:

There appears to be a misconception about how difficult it is to become a vegetarian. If you really want to do it, it's easy. I never felt an urge to eat meat after going herbie. Indeed, after a few months the idea of eating an animal's flesh became completely repulsive to me, and has stayed that way over 20 years later. I have about as much desire to eat the muscles of an animal as I have to eat its dung.

I agree.  When I first stopped eating meat I decided to go without it for a day and see what happens, and then the next day, and see what happens.  It was't in the least difficult.  Being an ovo lacto vegitarian, especially for men, doesn't really require much in terms of changes.  Any meat based meal can pretty much be prepared vegetarian without having to change spices or cooking processes.

Learning to cook vegan is definitely harder.  For those who don't really enjoy cooking, going from meat eater to vegan could be pretty bland <i>until they get the hang of it</i>.

I'm in the other boat it seems.  Once I stopped eating meat, like Al-Q, the idea of it became gross.  I don't like the idea of eating animal corpes (no judgement there) either, especially if they've had a lifetime of mistreatment.  It wasn't guilt, it was just...gross.  Now recently, I read and was challenged by The Vegetarian Myth, and I am experimenting eating a bit of meat here and there to see what happens.  Some of it I have enjoyed.  Most of it has seemed heavy, chewy, and kind of gross.

I'm at the point where I no longer believe that vegetarianism is much of an anwer for both the wellbeing of animals nor for environmental sustainability.  But, I'm just not sure how I'm going to get around the psychological aspect of not enjoying meat (I used to enjoy it).

As far as "absolutism" goes, in this thread I read more of it from the people criticizing this challenge than from those proclaiming their vegetarianism.  Frankly I would imagine 20 years as an ovo-lacto vegetarian does a lot to remove moral absoutism.  After six months vegetarians might be pretty lippy, but after many years (almost 13 for me, before I started experimenting this year), it just becomes a personal choice.

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As far as "absolutism" goes, in this thread I read more of it from the people criticizing this challenge than from those proclaiming their vegetarianism. 

Agreed. I don't see (really) any vegetarian absolutes. But it's also interesting to me that a number of vegetarians have spoken in support of this, even though (I'm assuming) even *they* are either unprepared to go "full vegan" or uninterested.

If *you* find vegan cooking a challenge, then can you maybe see why I'm questioning the need for this challenge to be a "vegan" challenge and not simply a "vegetarian" -- including lacto-ovo -- challenge? You've been a vegetarian for 13 years, but this challenge wants me to spend a week being even more rigorous about what I eat than you, and to to considerably greater lengths to do so.

If this were really about "helping the environment" or "raising awareness of what we eat" then I continue to maintain that a vegetarian challenge would do that.

Remember when our government started sponsoring television ads to urge us to get outside, go for a walk, ride a bike, play with our kids? That sort of thing? I wonder if those ads would been effective if they had instead urged us -- just for a week -- to get up each morning at 5 a.m. and go for a 20km run? What's your thinking? Would lots of people have met that challenge?

Snert wrote:

Agreed. I don't see (really) any vegetarian absolutes. But it's also interesting to me that a number of vegetarians have spoken in support of this, even though (I'm assuming) even *they* are either unprepared to go "full vegan" or uninterested.

It doesn't mean they we haven't tried it for more than a week and found benefit in it.  It's not about being absolute.  And frankly, I think the actual eco-benefits of that as a dietary choice are debateable.  But, I think it's a great challenge/exercise.  Just as I would think taking a week (really a week is barely enough for any of these challenges) to go without sugar (including fruit), and/or wheat, and/or soy would be very beneficial execises.

I've gone dairy-free for more than a year at a time.  I've gone vegan for months at a time.  I think eggs are really good for me but after long fasts they seem gross for a while.

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If *you* find vegan cooking a challenge, then can you maybe see why I'm questioning the need for this challenge to be a "vegan" challenge and not simply a "vegetarian" -- including lacto-ovo -- challenge? You've been a vegetarian for 13 years, but this challenge wants me to spend a week being even more rigorous about what I eat than you, and to to considerably greater lengths to do so.

I don't find vegan cooking a challenge when I'm interested in eating vegan, because I have learned to cook that way and make very appetizing meals.  It's challenging for brand new, cold turkey vegans and I don't find their creations very appetizing.

I would think that the Rabble vegan challenge could make it more likely for people to succeed by provising some sample recipes that people could try.  Babblers speaking in favour of this challenge could make it easier by providing some as well.  Of course, many babblers have been providing trolls with tasty vegan recipes over the years.  I can find some time in the next couple weeks to conribute a couple recipes.

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If this were really about "helping the environment" or "raising awareness of what we eat" then I continue to maintain that a vegetarian challenge would do that.

This is like earth hour, if earth hour were a week long, or maybe a day long.  All of these things, as individual actions, will do fuck all for the environment.  Where there is benefit is in opening people's eyes.  Anyone can go an hour without power and not challenge themselves in the least.  To go a day without power, that would probably feel like an accomplishment to most people.  To go a week without power, that would really open up people's eyes to how upside down things have gotten.  For one person to go without power means nothing in the grand scheme of things.  The point of these challenges is the effect on the individual, because the effect on the global or national system is negligible.

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Remember when our government started sponsoring television ads to urge us to get outside, go for a walk, ride a bike, play with our kids? That sort of thing? I wonder if those ads would been effective if they had instead urged us -- just for a week -- to get up each morning at 5 a.m. and go for a 20km run? What's your thinking? Would lots of people have met that challenge?

In my eyes the point is not to meet or pass the challenge, it is the introspective journey involved.  I don't think there's much personal benefit if there's not at least a bit of discomfort.