rabble.ca's vegan challenge II

As I was driving home yesterday there was an interview on CBC radio (Manitoba) with a fellow who was going celibate for six months.

Never mind that he was talking about half a year rather than a week, I doubt that anyone in the world would accuse him of trying to drive humanity into extinction. 

Likewise, I have never considered judaism a conspiracy against my enjoyment of bacon, scallops or beef stroganoff.

I am normally pretty vocal about those who consider moderate meat-eating evil, but  this is kind of ridiculous. Vegetarianism is fine. Veganism is fine, and we are just talking about a week-long exercise here. 

I don't understand why anyone would feel threatened by what is in essence a great idea.

Quote:

Of course, many babblers have been providing trolls with tasty vegan recipes over the years. 

If all those recipes could be extracted from the archives and edited into a cookbook, wouldn't that make a totally hilarious fundraiser?

"Fuck Off Troll:  A Collection of Beloved Recipes from Canada's Left"

I'm not really joking, btw.  I'd totally drop a few coins on a cookbook like that.

Timebandit wrote:

I'm not threatened - I just dislike the tone and I think the premise is silly.  I respond the same way to fundamentalists who make the assumption they are making morally superior choices to the rest of us. 

I don't think I've ever been asked to take the kosher challenge... 

I'm sort of with you (if you trundle over to the most recent seal-killing thread you can see where I stand on that). 

I see this strictly as a health and discipline issue. It there is a moral superior tone, implied or inferred, I am ignoring it. I have met some vegetarians who are judgmental and condescending about it, but The vast majority I know (including the one I sleep with every night) are not.

And besides, there are veggie mega-industries - corn, for one - which can certainly rival meat for envorinmental destruction. That is not the issue, IMO.

Regardless of the motive, I htink it is a good idea. Hey, I know enough alcoholics who give up drink for lent just to prove that they can.

Snert wrote:

"Fuck Off Troll:  A Collection of Beloved Recipes from Canada's Left"

I'm not really joking, btw.  I'd totally drop a few coins on a cookbook like that.

Fun!  I'd totally contribute recipes to that.

I'm thinking of doing the vegan challenge as an excuse to inflict wheat gluten upon the family once again.  So far, we're underwhelmed, but I've still got half a kilogram of wheat gluten powder (which expands massively - if we can like it, it's sure a cheap source of protein).

BTW, I'd welcome more recipes for wheat gluten/seitan, or links to same.  I've tried some internet recipes, and again, not great.

al-Qa'bong]</p> <p>[quote wrote:

I make seitan the hard way, washing starch out of the dough.  Gluten powder always seemed kinda strange and processed to me (yet I even eat TVP), so I never gave it a try.

I arrived at the tail end of a meal at a friend's house where they made their gluten that way (seems kinda wasteful to me, though it is one thing I would like to make one of these days). The only times I have had it fresh is chewing up wheat gum from grain out at the farm. 

I also like TVP as a chili or lasagna additive - never had it as a powder. And canned gluten/mockduck from chinatown is a guilty pleasure of mine.

Strangely enough, my mostly veggie partner turns her nose up at TVP. Go figure.

Catchfire wrote:

You know, I haven't seen any evidence of presumed "moral superiority" or condescension displayed here, or by any vegans I know. Maybe we know different vegans.

The very premises behind the vegan challenge are based on a presumed moral superiority and the call to the action is filled with condescension to those who believe that a vegan diet has nothing to do with the environment.

@ Life, the Universe...[I posted at the same time as Winston]

Thanks for the insight.

You've nicely explained the haranguing I recieve from meat-eaters whenever they discover I'm a vegetarian.  Apparently they see my very existence as a moral judgement against which they feel compelled to argue.

Here's a newsflash:  it's not about you.

You know what? You are not the only person who supports this organization, and making a donation is like any gratuity. It doesn't mean you run the joint.

Nor should it, FFS. That's the classic "I don't want my taxes going to that" argument.

Donations, by definition, are not a quid pro quo, and they don't give you a seat on the editorial board. Thank god.

I didn't say I owned anything.  You asked me what business it was of mine.  So I answered you directly.  As a donor I have a vested interest in the stands the organization makes and if it makes wrong ones I have a right to critique them.  That is all I have done.  I haven't said change or I withdraw.   I haven't taken my marbles and gone home, nor have I attacked anyone (unlike you) what I have done is question the tone and nature of the campaign.  That's what I was talking about in post #62.  And I have done it from the perspective of having spent a life time growing food in a sustainable manner and following food, environmental and labour issues in food production for over 40 years.   I have attacked no one, I have suggested that vegans and vegetarians are often subjected to unfair prejudice, but I have been clear that the underlying assumptions of this campaign are not correct.  Nor have I questioned any other aspect of a person's individual decision to become vegan.  What I have challenged is the specific claim that a vegan diet is better for the environment.   That is very simply put not true.

So yet again what I said is that the campaign is based on untruths and that makes it a problem.  Want to deal with that, or does it make you feel better to attack me?

If we look at the thread's context - rabble.ca promoting veganism as a way to be more environmentally friendly - then the criticism is not out of line.

The health and animal cruelty arguments are actually not relevant to the context of this thread or its predecessor.  Life(etc) is making a perfectly valid criticism in that the premise the challenge is based on is false, and commenting on the more-enronmentalist-than-thou attitude that some environmentalist vegans adopt.  It's clearly implied in the challenge that not being vegan is not "supporting the planet" (if I recall correctly how it was put).

I have no idea why this is being taken as a personal criticism.

al-Qa'bong wrote:

 

There appears to be a misconception about how difficult it is to become a vegetarian. If you really want to do it, it's easy. I never felt an urge to eat meat after going herbie. Indeed, after a few months the idea of eating an animal's flesh became completely repulsive to me, and has stayed that way over 20 years later. I have about as much desire to eat the muscles of an animal as I have to eat its dung.

Agree wholeheartedly.  I find meat and meat products kind of thick and chewy and gaggy now. Have gacked a couple of times after finding them in what was supposed to be a meat free something-or-other.

Rosa - I completely respect your stand.  I was one of those who came to veganism by way of repairing my health, but have come around since to seeing it from the animal cruelty POV.  In any case, it's a personal decision and I admire you for standing up for what you believe in.

(sorry for the edit I hit post too soon)

Quote:

 Posts about animal corpses and animal dung slung about.

Clearly, you missed my meaning. I said that one was as appealing as the other to me, while describing how easy it was for me to go without eating meat. I didn't bring anyone else's preference into it.

I wish it was a vegetarian challenge instead. I don't personally know anyone interested in going vegan (probably they have no idea what "vegan" means), but I have lots of vegetarian friends, and I go mostly vegetarian every summer for almost three months once the garden stuff ripens.

Boom Boom wrote:

I wish it was a vegetarian challenge instead. I don't personally know anyone interested in going vegan (probably they have no idea what "vegan" means), but I have lots of vegetarian friends, and I go mostly vegetarian every summer for almost three months once the garden stuff ripens.

Same here Boom Boom.  I'm interested in changing my diet.  This rabble challenge in Canada would be much more successful in the fall. 

Let's throw the shoe on the other foot.  In Canada, in the winter,  wouldn't the environment benefit from us hunting our food locally as no local produce is available, while ethically, locally harvested meat is?  I'm not about to go buy vegetables imported from around the world in April.  It does seem like a false start initiative.

This is really an interesting subject and I've learned tonnes already reading these threads.

Thanks for the discussion.

RevolutionPlease wrote:

Boom Boom wrote:

I wish it was a vegetarian challenge instead. I don't personally know anyone interested in going vegan (probably they have no idea what "vegan" means), but I have lots of vegetarian friends, and I go mostly vegetarian every summer for almost three months once the garden stuff ripens.

 

Same here Boom Boom.  I'm interested in changing my diet.  This rabble challenge in Canada would be much more successful in the fall. 

 

Let's throw the shoe on the other foot.  In Canada, in the winter,  wouldn't the environment benefit from us hunting our food locally as no local produce is available, while ethically, locally harvested meat is?  I'm not about to go buy vegetables imported from around the world in April.  It does seem like a false start initiative.

 

This is really an interesting subject and I've learned tonnes already reading these threads.

 

Thanks for the discussion.

 

Just so we're clear.  While I think that would be an interesting challenge.  The funny brown things in my field are neither moose nor deer

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

I didn't say I owned anything.  You asked me what business it was of mine. 

So yet again what I said is that the campaign is based on untruths and that makes it a problem.  Want to deal with that, or does it make you feel better to attack me?

No attack at all. I'm just delaing with a misconception.

This is an open forum, and the fact that you might have given financial support doesn't give you any more sway than anyone else. There are plenty of things on here that I disagree with, but I usually don't make a big deal about it.

As for the issue itself, I don't care what you might think about some peoples' reasons for promoting vegan week; it is perfectly valid for any number of reasons, including that someone might just want to do it because he or she feels like it. I'm surprised that (like so many issues) it is being judged relative to other things instead of based on its own merit. 

So I don't own the forum, but you are free to tell me whether or not I am allowed to express an opinion that might disagree with you.  I have only been talking about its merit, or in my case lack thereof, yet you continue to attack me personally.

Son of a gun. I just looked at the expensive tomatoes I got today - they're certified organic, and are from Saguenay, Quebec. How does the Saguenay grow tomatoes in the winter???  (the brand name is sagami)

Folks here salt fresh caught cod not just because they take up a lot of freezer space, but also because salt cod tastes better. There's a guy here who grows cabbage, and he salts it, and it sells out within days. Salted cabbage? That's a new one on me. (salted products have to be rinsed in water - twice - before using).

@ LTU

I said nothing about your freedom to say whatever you want. I was pointing out things on which I think you are mistaken.

@ RP

I have always been partial to canning -vegetables and meat - rather than freezing. The texture and taste are far superior and it keeps a lot longer (and without electricity).

And there is a lot more that you can get through the winter - roots and squash - if you have cold storage and cold frames. I am sure there are forums on it - I went and found a few good government manuals and books on it with times and pressures I could trust. 

Quote:

I didn't miss anything, it was clearly as hyperbolic as the jokes you and I both objected too.

 

I can agree to disagree but I found it not helpful.  You're just dancing around your words and not taking ownership.

You were the one complaining about those jokes; I just said I heard them before.

Whateverthehell "ownership" means, I said twice already that my comments were about my perceptions of what eating an animal means to me.

Do you have anything to contribute to any of these conversations, or are you merely the village scold?

RP (read your second post)

On the general question, I think most people DO buy veggies in the winter. dietary challenge or not. I do know that most of us don't have rice paddies in our back yards so there is a fair bit that we must import in the winter. I think the question is to do that wisely and in moderation, and not expect to have fresh peaches in January.

As for me, I still have a few of our potatoes and squash downstairs (and we do have local market sources for roots, onions and cabbage). We also have canned greens (chard and spinach) and apples year-round. A lot of our grains and pulses are in fact local. I think 70 percent of the world's lentils are grown in Saskatchewan, as a matter of fact. So as for replacing protein, there should be no problem there.

Food dehydrators - I have always used an oven with the door open, or better still the sun - which is far better for doing tomatoes. For fish I use salt.

The one thing I fins a drag is that there is no good way to preserve brassicas other than salting or pickling. Can't freeze them, dry them or can them.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Food dehydrators - I have always used an oven with the door open, or better still the sun - which is far better for doing tomatoes. For fish I use salt.

Thanks! (we don't get much in the way of warm sunlight, though - never goes over 78F here)

al-Qa'bong wrote:

Quote:

I didn't miss anything, it was clearly as hyperbolic as the jokes you and I both objected too.

 

I can agree to disagree but I found it not helpful.  You're just dancing around your words and not taking ownership.

 

You were the one complaining about those jokes; I just said I heard them before.

 

Whateverthehell "ownership" means, I said twice already that my comments were about my perceptions of what eating an animal means to me.

 

Do you have anything to contribute to any of these conversations, or are you merely the village scold?

Just interjecting, my friend, to what I felt was pointless to the discussion.  Feel free to be as you were.  I don't squeak for oil too often.