My thoughts on Libya

History is long. Anti Gaddafi history by the capitalists did not start a few weeks ago.

If only their friends, The Taliban Inc. plus the other 80% of the resistance had some heat-seeking Stinker missiles in the Stan. They'd be able to bring down a lot more of their bosses' troop carriers and NATO's unmarked Taliban-ferrying choppers that way. Phony phuckin war on terra.

Fidel wrote:

So do we support the rebels high on Air America's hashish and shootin up the place, their friends in the CIA plus the US-backed al-Qaeda against Gadhafi in an African country that has the highest HDI on the continent before this NATO sword operation began, or what?

It depends on what you mean by "support."

If you mean in the sense of an 'armchair quarterback' rooting for your favorite team,

Then I support the Libertarias/People/Revolutionaries.

If you mean if you were in Libya with a gun in your hand,

Then again, I'd support the Libertarias/People/Revolutionaries.

Otherwise,

I'm anti-war/anti-interventionist:

If we left it up to the Libyans,

Then if either the Libertarias win or Gadhafi's forces win,

I'd say, "It's for the best this way."

What goes on in Libya is nobody's business but the Libyans.

We have no right to militarily interfere in Libya or anyone else's country.

They want to bust up Libya, like they did with Yugoslavia after working with the Brits, KLA and al-Qaeda scum to create a militant Islamic base in Bosnia and Macedonia for the sake of pipeline geopolitical maneuvering.  Same formula - same blood for oil crims - different country.

Sorry, but I am genuinely concerned about terrorism and not a fake, phony, fascist bastard,  like our stooges in Ottawa and their bosses in Warshington and Virginia, London etc ad nauseum, really are and charade and they are. And may their blood scream for all eternity.

[url=http://tv.globalresearch.ca/2011/04/us-goal-break-libya-yugoslavia][colo... Goal to Break Up Libya like Yugoslavia[/color][/url]

grtv wrote:

"There are Russian and Ukrainian nurses testifying that hospitals are being bombed and civilians are being hurt," he told RT. "So this is not a humanitarian effort, it's a smokescreen. This is a war of aggression against Libya."

Yes, well, you can read about the [url=http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2011/04/04/gaddaffi-african-mercen... racist reaction by Libyan rebels[/url] there in Wayne Madsen's report. Madsen used to work for the people who are currently shining you on WRT Libya.

Snert since you are demanding people pick sides in other peoples civil wars.  Karzai or the rebels which side to you support?

Personally I think these events are far too complicated and too far away with no good media access to be able to tell who are the good guys and who are the assholes who will murder anyone.  Gaddafi is a run of the mill dictator on the brutal scale just like Saddam was.  Nasty pieces of work that need to be removed by their own people when their own people say enough is enough.  

NATO is at war with a sovereign country and is deeming an unelected group the new state.  How far should we take that premise?  How many other countries can NATO just disenfranchise and give the country's state status to dissident groups?  I would think that at least we might want to develop some criteria for this new way of freeing people from their dictators and national resources.

@ snert

there is no socialist revolutionin Libya. 

Yes, thanks.  But there are people rising up against a four decades old dictatorship.  I would have thought that would be an easy one for progressives to support.

The people or the corrupt dictator.  Tougher choice than I thought.

Quote:

You think you know what the people want so you can choose sides.

I don't assume that 100% of the population is united against Gadaffi. But I'll support those that are against a dictatorship anyway, because it's my belief (and I'm starting to think I'm alone in it) that dictatorships aren't progressive. So ya, even if only half of the population would like to get rid of the old dictator, I'd support them because I can't bring myself to support a dictatorship.

Quote:

I have no idea how many people support Gaddafi but it is obvious he still has support.  

The guy with the money and power always does.

Quote:

Historically Snert which side were the people?

I'm not familiar with all of these conflicts. In, for example, the case of the Yanks and the Rebels, which side was supporting a dictator?

That's kind of the lynchpin for me. If the conflict in Libya were about two factions of the population who could not agree on a National Bird, I wouldn't have any specific interest in which side prevailed. But throw in a dictator and that changes. How can I not support the people who would prefer to have some say in how they're governed?

And again, just to be clear, I'm not rooting for NATO. I'm not hoping that western powers stick around. But ya, as far as I'm concerned, the dictator and his sycophants aren't "the people".

What's the tough question you think I'm dodging?

http://tv.globalresearch.ca/2011/04/bon-arabe-mauvais-arabe-good-arab-bad-arab-fren.

Snert wrote:

I'm not familiar with all of these conflicts. In, for example, the case of the Yanks and the Rebels, which side was supporting a dictator?

Neither but one side had slave owners I guess that would be irrelevant in your world.  

Quote:

What's the tough question you think I'm dodging?

Which side had the dictator in the Roundheads vs. the Cavillers?  Determining which side is on the side of the angels is the tough part and you give me some bs about which side the dictator is on.  Chose your dictator Cromwell or the King?  Seems to me they were both wrong and dictators when they held power, although clearly Cromwell was on the side of democracy not the royalty. However the bad news is that  he and his troops were the English equivalent of the Taliban.  

Seems to me that the leaders of Qatar and Saudi Arabia are dictators and they are on the side of the Libyan rebels just like you.  I hope you like the company you are keeping.  How many people have the Saudis murdered in the streets for daring to ask for democracy like they have in Venezuela.  Those murderous sheiks and monarchs are your allies if we follow your good/evil logic.  

So which dictators are you supporting is the really tough question for you. Gaddafi, the local dictator or the foreign dictators bombing the crap out of him and his supporters..  I personally think there is room for decrying both.

So we can only surmize that a certain babbler is shying away from supporting CIA-backed al-Qa'eda terrorism in Libya. 

Now he says that Libyan rebels are still focused on fighting Gadhafi, and all those other vile Libyans supporting him, sooner than turn on their CIA and US special forces friends, and CIA and Egyptian backed al-Qaeda friends raising hell in Libya. Egypt is another bastion of democratic third world capitalism.

And we can assume that Libyans did not ask for nor request in any way this US-CIA-Al-Qaeda-Egyptian orchestrated 9/11 in their sovereign oil-rich country happening today. At least, no babbler is producing the goods to support such a notion.

Northern Shoveler wrote:

I love the way you dodge the hard questions and go for the fluff answers that are a lot like saying you like motherhood and apple pie. 

Hey,

What's wrong with mom and apple pie?

The Homeland Security advisory threat level must be anywhere from red to ultra-violet after these latest reports that CIA'da and Osama's flock are teamed up in Libya. Al Qaedas should consider putting in for social security and EI deductions coming off their US government cheques. Perhaps [s]Osama bin Laden[/s], sorry, Tim Osman could swing a deal for Qaeda transplants to America with Bush or Rummy on NRA and citizenship cards as rewards for jobs well done.

West Coast Greeny wrote:

5) Oil Libya has it. Darfur did not. Rwanda did not. 

No. Geography is much more important; continental Africa, with its vast swathes of territory that are impossible to patrol or hold by peacekeepers/intervention forces,

vs. coastal Libya,

which has ONE ROAD linking all the major cities, an easy dividing line between east and west, Govt and rebels, hence made for aircraft carriers to support flights w'out using ground forces and all their political ramifications

Whether you are pro or con this support to the rebels (I am very much in favour), this is capital.

Fidel wrote:

 It's not too late.

.... to passively support the Khaddafi family compact?!?

Well, all the usual strong-man suspects (the Castro bros., Chavez) are doing it, so join the cheerleaders.

Just thought of this: if Al-Qaida is so involved with the rebels (as you claim fidel) why haven't there be a wave of suicide attacks on Gadaffi's forces?

Suicide bombings is a hallmark Al-Qaida tactic...

Yeah, but none of that stuff has ever stopped Al-Qaida before...

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

Just thought of this: if Al-Qaida is so involved with the rebels (as you claim fidel) why haven't there be a wave of suicide attacks on Gadaffi's forces?

Like Former Soldier says, they would have to get past Gadhafi's forces. And besides, they don't have the CIA working for them on the inside of things in Tripoli to orchestrate anything like a twin towers job. Yes, Qaeda were trained in car bombings, improvised explosives, combat and survival, and, of course, hijackings. But what's this? 

[url=http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/15/us-libya-qaeda-idUSTRE73E1TH20... says Muslims should fight NATO in Libya[/url]

Well that certainly looks better for Qaeda and their western backers, doesn't it? Their old friend Ayman Zawahiri with another timely announcement for Qaeda when NATO's and CIA's role in Libya is highly questionable. Zawahiri made a few timely announcements when it was time for Bush junior's White House to put the fear of Qaeda into the American people during various state of the union addresses buttressed by the Homeland Security bureaucracy's terrorism alerts. There is really nothing like fear and mass hysteria to taint elections and carry out right wing agendas at home and abroad. In the 1950s, it was drop and cover commies with nukes from above alerts and grade b horror flicks. Today, it's Qaeda. Big budget militarism and socialism for rich people requires an enemy to be sustained. Any enemy will do, false or otherwise.

If we can remember, Ayman Zawahiri's brother, Zaiman, was running a terrorist training camp on behalf of Osama bin Laden in the US-controlled part of Kosovo in the late 1990s. Dr Zawahiri himself was granted a type of US visa status that most legitimate immigrants to America have great difficulty obtaining.

Make no mistake, al-Qaeda is really al CIA'da. Some of the foot soldiers may even believe that they are anti-American and anti-western. It's an illusion. They are bred and led themselves. Our job is to be fearful of al-Qaeda, the invisible army of darkness. And that's all that's all that's required of some phony majority of us who show up to vote in Canadian and US elections. All the world's a stage.

Why a suicide mission in an open warfare scenario? This isn't Iraq with US soldiers patrolling a green zone perimeter or anything. They are shelling and rocketing one another at a distance with the Luftwaffe swooping down and bombing hospitals, infrastructure, and the very people they are supposed to be protecting while, at the same time, aiding and abetting Reb-Qaeda in partisan fashion.

What you are saying makes very little sense. You might as well suggest that if the next person you meet has never had eaten a beaver tail,  then they must not be Canadian. I also happen to know authentic Canadians who have never played hockey or skated on ice, drank a Tim Horton's coffee or so much as owned a pair of snow shoes. Should these obvious frauds be deported for feigining their Canadian-ness? Who keeps track of this kind of thing?

Gadhafi had deal with the Gladio Gang Inc. to cooperate in the phony war on terror. Qaeda tried to assassinate Gadhafi a few years ago, like they succeeded in doing with Ahmed Shah Massood in 2001. Massood declared war on another of the USA's creations, the Taliban. They murdered Benazir Bhutto as well. She identified the murderer of Osama bin Laden and Daniel Pearl, an al-Qaeda gladio and al-MI6'da agent, before her assassination.

As it turns out, the Gladio Gang Inc. are now aiding and abetting al-Qaeda in Libya and other countries as they have all along since the late 1980s through the nineties and, of course, today as well. "Blowback" is CIA bullshit for, they are still working with them and never severed ties with bin Laden's invisible army of darkness. "al-Qa'eda" is a covert US Military and CIA intelligence operation for many years. They created them.Bec, they are not even trying to maintain a clean image anymore. This is an empire in decline due to internal corruption over many years.

al-Qa'eda = al-CIA'duh

CMOT Dibbler wrote:

"Franco-Brit-CIA-Egyptian backed rebs and al-CIA'da good". What proof do you have that Egypt is involved in this mess?

this was already posted to the Libya thread, you must have missed it, here it is again:

Libyan Rebels 'Receive Foreign Training'

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/201142172443133798.html

"US and Egyptian special forces have reportedly been providing covert training to rebel fighters...On Thursday night a new shipment of Katyusha rockets had been sent into eastern Libya from Egypt."

yeah from that other country that had a ahem 'revolution' -  after all those key organizers also received 'training' by Americans, many in Washington - and constant contact with the US embassy in Egypt. Wikileaks etc  You didn't buy that the 'Arab Spring' was all 'spontaneous' I hope?