Here are some ideas

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Thu, 2011-04-07 23:58

taxation is slavery

Here are some ideas

I suppose I don't need to raise any alarms about Harper on here. But I thought I would get to see some of the flavour of your collective blogs. I will try to be open but I started out as an accountant, am training as a manager, and have always voted on the right (at least until this election). Now that you are all writing hate mail, let me tell you about the other side.

I am a vegetarian, I have planted a small forest by myself. I read a lot and I am probably not all that far politically from a lot of you, it is just there are no politicians who would run on anything close to a platform that I could wholeheartedly support. Sadly, most of you choices are less than satisfactory as well.

I mean seriously on the left you have the greens, NDP (serious leadership issues and questionable economic strategies), the center well the Liberals are making some good noises but I have serious doubts about them delivering on their promises and then there is the corruption that will inevitably follow. PC party it just a nastier version of the American government.

That said, my politics are vastly different from what is on offer now.

Here is my ideal platform;

Personal taxes are eliminated and corporate taxes are pretty much left alone. There should be a 10% consumption tax and the government is re-sized to fit this new reality.

Cuts could be made at Revenue Canada
Bureaucracies that limit business would be chopped liberally
Culture would not be federally supported
Languages would not be federally supported
Corporations would not be federally supported
Political parties should be eliminated outright
Confrontational political system needs an overhaul (not too sure how)
Tax breaks for contributions to politics and religion eliminated
Religions taxed as if they were a business
Immigration reduced until real unemployment is around 10% or under and limited to highly skilled people into in demand trades (ie Doctors)
The military is not reduced but is mostly recalled to Canada.
New funding is introduced to the military's equipment needs but a 100% Canadian made policy is introduced.
Health care is properly funded and thinned out at the administrative level
Private health care is completely allowed but not publicly funded, it is publicly regulated though.

That should be enough for the moment if we even got part of this done it would make a real change. That is just a taste of what needs to happen and there is about 3 times as much to do just to fix some of the ills, forget about making great forward strides in civilization.

Issues Pages:

Elections

Fri, 2011-04-08 00:13

Ken Burch

Interesting list of ideas...

Although when you say "the federal government (should be) re-sized to fit this new reality", you need to be honest and admit that you are calling for the end of the social wage(those essential social services that CEO types cynicall dismiss as "the welfare state")and the end of any chance of upward mobility for those starting out with nothing, since that "re-sizing" would reduce most publicly-funded universities to nothing more than "white collar trade schools" where you're taught mad desk skills but forbidden to learn how to think.

That particular proposal would make Canada a compassion-, humanity- creativity and intellectual curiosity- free zone, sine nothing that would be lost could possibly be supported by individual donations or mere charity.

Fri, 2011-04-08 00:18

Boom Boom

I think you're in the wrong forum, TIS. This is a forum for people who are happy to pay taxes to support a caring and compassionate society.

Fri, 2011-04-08 06:28

taxation is slavery

i never said that we need to end education, I invest heavily in education. That is the only thing that they can't take from you. I never said anything about not paying tax, just an end to direct personal wage tax. Just an end to oppression and less corruption

Fri, 2011-04-08 07:08

Maysie

taxation wrote:
Political parties should be eliminated outright

Fri, 2011-04-08 07:17

Caissa

Here is an idea. Fix the formatting. Same expletive, expletive problem as last week. An no, I am not changing browsers.

Fri, 2011-04-08 07:18

Unionist

Initial thoughts:

taxation wrote:

Bureaucracies that limit business would be chopped liberally

I'd chop them conservatively.

Quote:

Languages would not be federally supported

I don't understand a thing Harper says, so we're already there.

Quote:

Tax breaks for contributions to politics and religion eliminated

Great idea, but you eliminated personal taxes at bullet #1, so maybe re-think this one...

Quote:

Religions taxed as if they were a business

I'd prefer to tax businesses as if it were my religion.

Quote:

Immigration reduced until real unemployment is around 10% or under and limited to highly skilled people into in demand trades (ie Doctors)

Couldn't we fix the percentage faster by just deporting the unemployed? (with thanks to Jonathan Swift)

Quote:

The military is not reduced but is mostly recalled to Canada.

Contradicts your point about only importing doctors and other highly-skilled people.

Quote:

Health care is properly funded and thinned out at the administrative level

Um, why - because it's too well administered right now?

Fri, 2011-04-08 07:22

Maysie

*standing ovation for Unionist*

Well done.

Fri, 2011-04-08 12:26

bagkitty

Unionist wrote:

Quote:

Immigration reduced until real unemployment is around 10% or under and limited to highly skilled people into in demand trades (ie Doctors)

Couldn't we fix the percentage faster by just deporting the unemployed? (with thanks to Jonathan Swift)

Are we going to follow his advice for national day care policy too?

(and I think I will leave my old tagline in place this time)

Whom the hive does not cherish it eats.

Fri, 2011-04-08 13:34

#10

Lachine Scot

taxation is slavery wrote:

Languages would not be federally supported

Should we read "Languages...Other than English" into this one? Because I find it hard to imagine a Canada without elementary grammar lessons, the spoken or written word in government services, road signs, etc...

Fri, 2011-04-08 18:57

#11

taxation is slavery

Language, languages is a moot point; once you stop funding french Quebec would split off in some fashion anyway.

Well put Unionist. (I am not familiar with Johnathan Swift though)

I mostly throw these ideas out there to encourage feedback. My way is by no means the best or only way. Does anyone have any ideas on how to change representative democracy for the better?

Fri, 2011-04-08 19:23

#12

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Ban rich people from associating to steal the commons.

Fri, 2011-04-08 19:36

#13

Unionist

Northern Shoveler wrote:

Ban rich people from associating to steal the commons.

You've got my vote!

Fri, 2011-04-08 20:05

#14

taxation is slavery

That is a slippery slope, banning association. My entire thrust is individual freedom, acheived via not funding them (those that would steal from us).

Corporations are an artificial construct that make income from using people, tax corporations and free the individuals. This seems like an idea which could help start an awareness of the horrible injustices in the world, of which the Canadian people are now complicit through our governemnts support of an illegal war in Libya.

Does anyone really believe that the Libyan freedom fighters want democracy? Does anyone really believe that armed insurrection (supported presumably by the west) does not deserved an armed response by the government? I am not claiming Ghadafi is a saint (actually I think he should be killed), but I certainly do not support Canadian Armed forces attacking a sovereign nation without direct provocation.

And while I am on this military soapbox, what on earth do we need stealth fighters for? How about a homebuilt Navy to help protect our own sovereignty (we do have the most coastline in the world, or near to it). Spending billions for a vague trickle down certainly seems like bad business. We could start or certainly beef up our own aerospace industry for that kind of cash and the jobs and tech would then be our own.

Fri, 2011-04-08 20:17

#15

taxation is slavery

That is a slippery slope, banning association. My entire thrust is individual freedom, acheived via not funding them (those that would steal from us).

And while I am on this soapbox, what on earth do we need stealth fighters for? How about a homebuilt Navy to help protect our own sovereignty (we do have the most coastline in the world, or near to it). Spending billions for a vague trickle down certainly seems like bad business. We could start or certainly beef up our own aerospace industry for that kind of cash and the jobs and tech would then be our own.

Fri, 2011-04-08 20:42

#16

Ken Burch

Lachine Scot wrote:

taxation is slavery wrote:

Languages would not be federally supported

Should we read "Languages...Other than English" into this one? Because I find it hard to imagine a Canada without elementary grammar lessons, the spoken or written word in government services, road signs, etc...

I don't know...if the government were communicating solely through "charades"...well, it WOULD reinforce the metaphor.

Fri, 2011-04-08 20:51

#17

Ken Burch

"Confrontational political system needs an overhaul (not too sure how)"

So you still haven't made up your mind as to whether everyone who disagreed with you would just be arrested, or whether you'd have them tortured, or whether you'd save public monies by simply having all of them shot?

If you're sincerely looking for dialogue about your ideas "Taxation", you need to listen to me very carefully on this point:
What your proposals amount to, whether your realize it or not, would be a "libertarian" police state...and, while this might not lead to fascism(therefore avoiding any accusation that I'm "Godwinning" you)it could well lead to feudalism...rule by the locally strong.

You should read the history of Europe prior to the Enlightenment to see what kind of life people would have on your proposals, if implemented as a group.

On another point, taxation, especially taxation of the wealthy at a proper rate(such as the rate the U.S. taxed them at in the 1950's, an era that was a huge economic boom in my country)is NOT "slavery" and your use of that phrase as a posting name is deeply offensive. Slavery is being forced to work endless days in a cotton field or a sweatshop at ultralow or NO wages, with the threat of whipping, castration, or death for those who try to escape. Paying taxes has nothing in common with that experience and to equate the two is an insult to the memory of everyone who ever endured ACTUAL slavery...including the tens of thousands of such people who "Follow(ed) The Drinkin' Gourd"(a euphemism for heading in the direction of the Big Dipper in the night sky while escaping on the Underground Railroad) north to Canada and freedom. Understood?

Fri, 2011-04-08 20:57

#18

taxation is slavery

Do we really need to fund every minority groups needs? People will keep their culture and language if it is valid and desired by them. It should not be used as a political tool.

Fri, 2011-04-08 21:05

#19

wage zombie

taxation is slavery wrote:

Does anyone really believe that the Libyan freedom fighters want democracy?

Huh?

Fri, 2011-04-08 21:14

#20

taxation is slavery

Ken I understand you. I just may not agree with you, and no you will not be shot at my behest. Calm down, don't take it personally. I am not anymore of a fascist than either one of the elected Canadian or American leaders, far from it actually. I value intelligent discourse, you are just saying the same thing over and over. I will follow any relevant links you can provide to back up your statements, but that still does not guarantee my acquiescence.

Fri, 2011-04-08 21:22

#21

Ken Burch

You need to see links to be convinced that taxation is not equivalent to slavery? Do you know anything about the actual experiences of those who were enslaved?

Oh, and if you want "dialogue", condescending to those who respond to you is not the way to get it.

Also, why DON'T you believe that the Libyan rebels want democracy? Are you one of those "Arabs are subhuman beings who are incapable of wanting to free themselves" types?

Fri, 2011-04-08 21:26

#22

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

I don't understand your logic. if you believe in individual freedom how can you believe in allowing corporations. The whole idea of the corporate veil is protecting the rich from the liability of the potential harm their businesses might do to real humans. It is the antithesis of individual freedom unless you believe freedom comes with no responsibility to your fellow citizens.

Fri, 2011-04-08 21:50

#23

Maysie

taxation wrote:
Do we really need to fund every minority groups needs? People will keep their culture and language if it is valid and desired by them. It should not be used as a political tool.

Fri, 2011-04-08 21:56

#24

Catchfire

taxation is slavery wrote:
I will follow any relevant links you can provide to back up your statements, but that still does not guarantee my acquiescence.

Hi TiS. I'm a moderator. It seems babblers want to play with you a bit, so I'm going to let you stick around. But why don't you follow this "relevant link" : Babble Policy. Please respect it. That means, your opinions on funding the rights of marginalized people (not "minorities." Do you know who else is a "minority"? Rich white guys. How about yanking their institutional support?) and your speculation on the motives of Libyan rebels are not welcome here. Read the policy and absorb it.

Fri, 2011-04-08 22:06

#25

taxation is slavery

I am not so sure that I am worth banning but if that is what you want, that would be entirely up to you. I thought a forum was meant for the exchange of ideas.

I do agree that Rich white guys are a minority and I am not too fond of subsidizing their agenda either.

I am not so sure what is pushing Ken's buttons but if he stops abusing me long enough to talk I would like to hear more from him, he seems fairly well read and I might just learn from him.

Or you could just ban me and keep the chorus all in tune.

Fri, 2011-04-08 22:15

#26

Ken Burch

I haven't abused you. I've pointed out disturbing aspects to your proposals.

Let me try this another way...why do you seem to think that it goes without saying that the Libyan rebels don't WANT democracy? What do you base that conclusion on? You act as if that assertion somehow "goes without saying". Do you believe that Libyans, and Arabs in general, are somehow genetically incapable of seeking to free themselves from dictators?

And seriously, how can you possibly equate taxation with slavery? Do you really believe that having to write a check to the government is the same as being brought across an ocean in chains and then forced to work fourteen hours a day in a cotton field? Please explain how you could ever make such an equation.

Fri, 2011-04-08 22:22

#27

taxation is slavery

ok, I need to get to one issue at a time.

Lets get rid of Libya, I believe that the rebels are pawns being used by western corporations to further their ends. I never said and do not believe that there are subhuman groups and up to this point I was trying to avoid being drawn into such a discussion.

I think that they will very likely be used to install a different dictatorship, time will tell.

Fri, 2011-04-08 22:33

#28

taxation is slavery

Slavery- There are different levels (interpretations) of slavery. But on your train of thought, would they not take away your freedom and/or property if you refused to pay your taxes?

Slavery as I understand it would be-having to supply your labour/time/money against your wishes, for little benefit. And in order for me to make money to pay my taxes (which I believe to be wasted in a horribly inefficient manner) I am forced from my home to travel to work to make money.

And some background on me, I am not rich, I work very hard for my money, on average 60 hours a week, outside, sometimes at -40 degrees. My ethnicity is irrelevant. As is yours to this discussion (at least to this point).

Fri, 2011-04-08 22:44

#29

taxation is slavery

Northern, corporations are just a tool, an artificial construct, which we choose to associate with or not. I am all for taxing corporations, not into extinction as they serve a function. Keeping people busy that otherwise would not be.

Ken correct me if I am wrong but weren't the people in Europe prior to the enlightenment (which I assume is sometime around 1000ad give or take), weren't they chattel, or serfs, and were they not taxed on their labour by their masters/kings/etc

I am not sure if I can change my screen name, and I am not sure I want to, because I do have some conviction that it is true at least in some respects. I am sorry if it offends you.

Fri, 2011-04-08 23:32

#30

Fidel

Ken Burch wrote:
Let me try this another way...why do you seem to think that it goes without saying that the Libyan rebels don't WANT democracy? What do you base that conclusion on?

If lefties were to begin with an armed insurrection here in Canada, would we attempt to legitimize our cause by associating with al-Qaeda? Is Qaeda a legit democratic movement, or would we do damage to our cause by fighting alongside them with the realization that Qaeda is an established terrorist organization and rabidly anticommunist, and just like the CIA and MI6ers and NATO are rabidly anticommunist by wild coincidence?

Because I would be the first to state categorically that I am not with those guys. No sir, there would probably be anywhere from none to less than zero Islamic sword operators in my revolution, thanks very much.

Sat, 2011-04-09 10:00

#31

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Lefties in Canada lose their legitimacy by throwing a rock throw a Starbucks window. Armed insurrection by bombing banks or police stations would not have Canadians calling for a No Fly Zone to protect those democratic protests.

Taxslave I recommend the book, "The Corporation" to you since you don't really seem to understand its purpose or historic place in our economy. The rich are kept busy in corporations but that is like saying it is a good thing the US has such a large military because it keeps the young men off the streets and out of trouble.

Sat, 2011-04-09 21:16

#32

George Victor

Taxslave has had a rare thought: "Corporations are an artificial construct that make income from using people, tax corporations and free the individuals."

But wait, practically all of our savings are invested in corporations. Perhaps he just means those corporations in which he and we are not invested. And won't he have to overcome the tendency of government to want to keep corporations within their jurisdiction? But, hell, let's not turn from flights of pure fancy to the dismal science, eh?

Sat, 2011-04-09 21:54

#33

taxation is slavery

Northern, I will get a copy of the book. Thanks.

I am surprised by the tone of the reponses in general, I was hoping for more discussion on what might work, what won't work and why. Just throwing out some ideas to try to make this (western democracies) a better place. Doesn't anyone want to make it better, or do we just want a place at the big table.

Personally I feel like I have no contol over the future of the country, no voice even. I don't like where it is headed and particularly who is calling the shots right now. I am no poli sci major, I will be running a company somewhere in a few years, not a country anyway, but it would be nice to at least cast a relevant vote, there hasn't been much to choose from in my riding in the last few years and it seems hard to mobilise people to care.

No George all corporations, even the ones you are invested in and the brokerage too. My savings are currently not invested in the markets, it is a bit too risky for me. Having said that I read demographic trends and financial troughs fairly well and have made a few bucks there.

Sat, 2011-04-09 22:41

#34

Catchfire

taxation is slavery wrote:
I am not so sure that I am worth banning but if that is what you want, that would be entirely up to you. I thought a forum was meant for the exchange of ideas.

TiS, let me be clear: your racist, xenophobic musings do not constitute and "exchange of ideas." In fact, they distract from a meaningful such exchange. We have a particular set of first principles (as stated in the policy linked above) from which we wish to ground our debate, as a community. If you wish to be part of this community, you need to respect that. It's simple.

Sat, 2011-04-09 23:18

#35

al-Qa'bong

Quote:
Does anyone really believe that the Libyan freedom fighters want democracy?

No kidding. Those filthy towelheads want sultanates and rule-by-scimitar.

Tabernacle, c'est facile comme une canisse de jus de raisin.

Sun, 2011-04-10 00:25

#36

Ken Burch

Nothing wrong with bringing it up, in and of itself.

And when you phrase your analysis that way, you make some interesting points. Do you make a distinction between rebels in Libya and the democracy movements in OTHER Arab vountries, or do you think they're all the same in this regard?

Sun, 2011-04-10 00:26

#37

taxation is slavery

I believe that the Libyan rebels are pawns being used by western corporations/interest groups to further their ends. I never said and do not believe that there are subhuman groups and up to this point I was trying to avoid being drawn into such a discussion.

I think that they will very likely be used to install a different dictatorship, time will tell.

Call me crazy but didn't the Americans tear up central america just like this about 25 years ago? What do we have in Egypt, More riots and the army is shooting again. Libya wasn't attacking any foreign countries, it was facing an armed insurrection. (Let me add that I am not there I am going off the news items I have seen). If any other country was faced with an armed insurrection it would act in a violent manner toward the aggressors.

But enough about Libya, sorry I brought it up.

Sun, 2011-04-10 00:30

#38

Ken Burch

As for the rulers of my country back in the Eighties...they tore up Nicaragua(inventing the "Contra" army to terrorize the population there into voting the FSLN party ouf of power in the 1990 elections)and oversaw reigns of terror in El Salvador and Guatemala in the name of preventing the existing oligarchies from losing power in those countries.

It's a little odd that they'd do that to Qadaffi at this point, though, given that they've made a big show, under the last TWO U.S. administrations, of presenting him as the mad tyrant who's been tamed. But that could have been misdirection.

Sun, 2011-04-10 00:45

#39

taxation is slavery

Ken Burch wrote:

Nothing wrong with bringing it up, in and of itself.

And when you phrase your analysis that way, you make some interesting points. Do you make a distinction between rebels in Libya and the democracy movements in OTHER Arab vountries, or do you think they're all the same in this regard?

No idea about most of it, but I think the Egyptians are probably not going to get what they wanted without staring down the army again. I am no big fan of dictators and monarchies, but in some cases the devil you know might be better (at least in the short term). You can't really paint the Middle east with one brush, Iran for example, I have taked to people from there and they are terrified of their government. These are educated people who want out badly because they fear that it will not change, and as we witnessed last year it is going to take a bit more yet.

What I don't know is who is pulling the strings, where do the arms come from in Libya? Iran I personally think was an honest to goodness popular revolution, as was Egypt in my opinion, Libya not so much (but, that is just gut feeling/wild speculation)

Part of my sometimes spastic ranting is frustration over these types of injustices that are occuring in the world, and I am appalled that I am funding some some of these things and have no voice to tell my government to stop and that I lack the skills to organise any kind of resistance to the decay of our government.

Sun, 2011-04-10 00:54

#40

taxation is slavery

Ken Burch wrote:

As for the rulers of my country back in the Eighties...they tore up Nicaragua(inventing the "Contra" army to terrorize the population there into voting the FSLN party ouf of power in the 1990 elections)and oversaw reigns of terror in El Salvador and Guatemala in the name of preventing the existing oligarchies from losing power in those countries.

It's a little odd that they'd do that to Qadaffi at this point, though, given that they've made a big show, under the last TWO U.S. administrations, of presenting him as the mad tyrant who's been tamed. But that could have been misdirection.

True, it just stinks a bit and the CIA is on the ground now, + european Irregular / Trainers. The latest conspiracy theory is that Ghadafi refused to jump in bed with some kind of African (military) union and that is why they are removing him. I am more of a money guy, go in blow up all the guns, new dictator, sell more guns, paid for by oil. (Proof, sorry got none, just speculating) Do the ordinary Libyans want freedom of course they do. We all want more freedom.

Sun, 2011-04-10 05:04

#41

Fidel

Wow, is he ever full of shit. His eyes must be deep brown by now.