This is babble's official English-language leaders' debate thread. rabble.ca columnists Murray Dobbin and Duncan Cameron will be dropping by to offer live commentary during the debates, field your questions and give post-mortem analysis.
This thread will open at 6pm EST/3pm PST.
Until then, check out existing babble threads on the debates:
Leading up to the election debates
Greens still excluded [from party leaders' debates]
And away we go!
Surely, this will figure heavily in the debates: http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/draft-auditor-generals-g-repor...
Ok, I've just postponed a long-standing night out on the town (well, evening out on the neighbourhood) in order to watch this simulacrum of democracy. It had better be good, or else... umm... yeah!
Is this the right thread for this? Debate bingo:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2ajhFNstvOE/TaSRRpXHR9I/AAAAAAAACWY/xIg84-G7I_A/s1600/BINGO.JPG
What is with the crappy sound
Gilles Duceppe: I'd like to congratulate Mr Harper for answering a question from a citizen for the first time in this campaign.
Direct Hit! (Harper only tightened the mock smile pasted on his face. No reply. )
Agree the sound is terrible. How do you think Harper is doing? He seems to know his lines extremely well, but he doesn't seem confident - at least to my ear. Greatest moment in the debate so far: Duceppe congratulating Harper for answering a citizen's question for the first time in this election.
Anyone know what the rules of this debate are?
I'd say Duceppe got the first shot in with the crack about answering a question from an average person
But Layton got the first good moment by asking what happened to Harper
So far Ignatieff is weaker than I expected
Can we post comment from Twitter here? Stuart Trew just posted this: "The #elxn41 debate is sure giving Harper a nice platform. He's the only one with a frontal camera. Ops walking into trap, media helping?" - I have to say I hadn't noticed that until I read that.
As predicted, Harper is taking advantage of being ganged up on by the other three. He has taken his valium and his personallity disorder is under control. He is calm, on message and for his supporters he is doing well. He focuses on what is his principal srength - the economy. It is his main strength because he spent pover $20 million of taxpayers money promoting the myth that he has managed the economy so well. That is a myth but the opposition parties let him get away with it and are now paying the price. First part of the debate goes to Harper.
Harper is killing them. Ignatieff sucks he seems absent minded. Jack is doing his annoying voice. Conservative majority.
Surprised to see Afghanistan come up in the debates. Iggy wants us to "train" Afghan warlords and drug traffickers. Is he cribbing from Martin's 2003 debate notes?
Harper: "I'd be happy to see the real [G8/G20] report." Whoops!
Why is Harper allowed to speak so much? Do the other leaders think he is going to do himself harm? I don't understand why they don't interrupt him the way the moderator allows him to interrupt them.
eta - ive recorded the debate and im behind the live feed. so my remarks may be out of sync.
Ignatieff is making good points on foreign policy - talking about Kairos, rights and democracy, hitting Harper on his attacks on NGOs. Harper shifts to G20 and G8 reminding people, I expect, of the $1 billion wasted on the meetings in Toronto. Layton pushes hard on Harper to release Auditor General's report but Harper manages, again, to return to the strong economy. This could wear thin soon but he will keep using it because he has successfully framed the issue over the past 6 months and it is too difficult now to re-frame the issue. Iggy is good on why we are having an election - he actually sounds pretty good: we are having an election because Harper would not tell the truth.
Political keeners know what 'Kairos' means, but for most voters, they are probably wondering why Ignatieff is talking about Cairo, Egypt.
Well that was pretty good by Ignatieff: Parliament is not some debating club that gets in the way of your desire. You were found in contempt of the parliament of the people of Canada. You explain that to the Canadian people.
- Dobbin is right on Ignatieff scoring big, I think, with Harper's lying, lying, lying (like Mulroney - why doesn't one of them hammer Harper with his similarity to the most hated PM in Cdn history? )
- Layton scores with a point on greenhouse gases ... against both Libs and Conservatives. " ... in terms of (greenhouse gases) ... Canada is a pariah. " good body language from Layton. These guys are taking a while to warm up, obviously.
Harper is one of the most effective liars I have seen in politics. His shamelessness is amazing - Iggy states the fatcs about kairos and other groups and Harper doesn't even blink - he says without a hint of embarrassment that Iggy's charges are not based on the facts. He dismisses his violations of democracy as partisan bickering - and it seems from the polls that many people actually see it this way. Iggy begins to sound like a broken record on the control issue and he doesn't seem where to go next.
Harper also taking advantage of the unwanted election. Iggy effective on going after Harper on his contempt for democracy - makes good use of the people being thrown out of the campaign meetings. Again Harper claims that the real issues are just bickering - a good effort at reframing.
Shameless lies continue. But Iggy gets some good hits - "You stiffed parliament." Harper uses his frame again - the economy. Iggy also good on taking on the use of ther term "bickering" to dismiss the real issues.
My impression is that Gilles Duceppe's English is not as good as it has been in previous debates.
See this is what I don't understand: why can't he be simply called out on these lies. I can't believe he is standing there lying about the coalition agreement he formed with the Bloc and NDP in 2004! "I never signed such a document". What is the point of having a discussion with someone who lies that way, and where no one will hold him to account. It makes me want to turn off the tv stream and walk away. Which I guess is Harper's strategy, to simply turn off voters.
Jack just brought up PR and killing the Senate
Like Duceppe's mock compliment at the beginning, one of them could mockingly compliment Harper on his skillful lying. And then move on to another Harper lie. And another compliment. they should simply rip him a new one.
Points to Jack for steering away from this meaningless coalition talk and bringing up proportional representation in pretty clear terms.
Layton gets trapped into fighting with Duceppe. Harper: "The party that wins the most seats gets to govern the country." This is completely false and Iggy gets him on it. But then he lets Harper off the hook - he just shuts up and lets Harper get the last word on "how things are supposed to work" in this country. He could have won the point but just lost his nerve. Harper lies again - about the letter he signed by which he would have become PM with fewer seats than the Liberals. unless the letter is shown on a screen it's his word against Duceppe - who most in English Canada don't like.
Layton to his credit brings up the need for proportional represenatation - points out the Greens got 900,000 votes and no seats. First time it has been mentioned in a leaders' debate.
Harper hits on his favourite frame of the debate: all serious issue that make him look bad are just "bickering." It is a clever strategy as the other leaders spund like they are bickering and Harper manages to sound calm and confident.
Actually Ignatieff sounds way too angry - not coming across well at all.
Jack's attacks on Ignatieff are starting to look petty. Following a Harper tirade, his focus should be on Harper. He's making it look like he's more interested in defeating Liberals than Conservatives.
Ignore the damned polls, Jack, and think of the optics.
Layton just destroyed Ignatieff on his record of attendance in the House
Anyone notice they keep cutting away from Layton when he is speaking and show a long shot, but don't do that with Harper.
This terrible broadcast is making the case for an independent debate organization with Elections Canada or something oversight. The production values are terrible.
LTJ that's nonsense. Why aren't you saying the same thing about Ignatieff he has done the exact thing you are complaining about. Oh right the NDP should always be the white knight and the Liberals are free to stab anyone they want. This double standard has to end.
Gilles made Jack look like a fish for a bit there over Bill 101.
But you're right, Murray. Our Prime Minister is dismissing the procedures of parliament as "bickering" on national television. This is where we are.
Anyone notice they keep cutting away from Layton when he is speaking and show a long shot, but don't do that with Harper.
This terrible broadcast is making the case for an independent debate organization with Elections Canada or something oversight. The production values are terrible.
Agreed. Also, as noted, the full frontal camera shots that only Harper is shown in, and the amount of time they allow him to speak/lie.
Layton gets in a pointless fight against Duceppe again - arcane distinctions regarding the immigration question and Bill 101 which only political junkies know about. He could have asked him why he doesn't criticize Harper on the issue. But Duceppe knows that Jack is very popular in Quebec and also knows that if he can get NDP voters in the province to switch the vast majority would go to the Bloc.
More Harper lies about immigrant support programs - says they have tripled the funding. Completely misleading - but impossible to challenge without sounding like they're whining.
Good line by Iggy - his family would not have been allowed into Canada. Harper has slashed the family class immigration.
Stephen "Simply not true" Harper.
Or Layton bad, Ignatieff terrible.
Iggy good on crime - repeating his frame of learning from the failures of the US system - minimum sentences, mandatory sentences, etc. He gets Harper with saying the way to reduce crime is reduce and control guns. Iggy shows he knows something about the issue by referring to Quebec's youth crime programs.
Duceppe gets a good whack at Harper - a quick hit on how he is tough on crime and criminals except in his own office.
Harper cherry picks certain popular examples of crime and leaves ut thos that are most offensive but manages not to sound like a nut bar on the issue.
Layton sounds too much like he is defensive on crime but makes good points on prevention. He looks good as Iggy basically backs Layton with same arguments.
Harper has slashed the family class immigration.
2006 - 70,517
2007 - 66,242
2008 - 65,581
2009 - 65,204
2010 - 60,207
This thread quite frankly is nonsense. You could have written what Dobbin, LTJ, etc. would say before the debate: Layton bad, Ignatieff good. 
By the way, this just went up on rabble. When CBC's post-mortem analysis has you tearing your hair out and rending your clothing, check out rabble.ca's alternative debrief livestream on 18 April.
Tune in to rabbleTV on April 18 to watch special election coverage - for the rest of us - from rabble.ca. Host Trish Hennessy (CCPA researcher and author of the Hennessy Index) will be joined by guests including CAW economist Jim Stanford and Atkinson Foundation's Olivia Nuamah. This first panel responds to the leaders debates and the campaign so far, and will tackle the issue of strategic voting.Progressive voices have for too long been excluded from mainstream media political panels. rabble's "Real Issues" panel will bring together some of Canada's most insightful thinkers, change makers and commentators from a broad range of progressive perspectives to comment on the 2011 federal election. Real Issues is a diverse cross-Canada issue panel that makes innovative use of live video, webcams and real time debate and discussion to deliver a progressive and engaging online program.
I wish Duceppe would have expanded on the crime in Harper's office.
Layton just got the best zinger in about criminals in the senate
Ignatieff hasn't been that bad. He's scored the most body blows to Harper and he's gotten better as the debate has gone on. I like that he ignored the reactionary framing of the crime question and complimented both Duceppe and Layton in his answers.
Layton is worse than I thought he would be after his experience in the other debates. He still sounds like a lightweight which has always surprised me since he can sound very sharp and informed in one on one interviews. He did a good job of bringing up PR and violence aganist women. I've been watching E May's liveblog just to see if she'd mention his plug for her party but nada, just her complaining about the 'hyper partisanship' of all the partiy leaders except for her...
Harper is a smooth smooth customer but he sounds a bit like a broken record with a lot of his soundbytes.
Also: Jack? Bling? Hashtag fail? Let's hear it for #hipanachronism
He did save it with his one-liner on not needing prisons because the crooks seem happy in the Senate. Ha!
ETA: And what about those ties? There's a poll on rabble.ca's front page. I pick Gilles for the win.
Harper has slashed the family class immigration.2006 - 70,517
2007 - 66,242
2008 - 65,581
2009 - 65,204
2010 - 60,207
Four white guys fielding questions by all-white askers. This is democracy in Canada.
Layton most credible on Medicare and his pitch is positive - improve health care. But he needs - or someone does - to point pout Harper's past statements on Medicare - his support for two-tier care, his ridiculing of Canadians who expressed pride in Medicare. He says Harper can't be trusted - but doesn't provide the evidence of why that is true.
Layton does now bring in Harper's past association with "certain oranizations" - but doesn't name the organization, the National Citizens Coalition which was founded to destroy Medicare. Harper was president of it for 3 years.
ETA: And what about those ties? There's a poll on rabble.ca's front page. I pick Gilles for the win.
But someone should tell M. Duceppe that you undo the bottom button of your suit jacket, not the top button.
Anyone notice they keep cutting away from Layton when he is speaking and show a long shot, but don't do that with Harper.
This terrible broadcast is making the case for an independent debate organization with Elections Canada or something oversight. The production values are terrible.
Agreed. Also, as noted, the full frontal camera shots that only Harper is shown in, and the amount of time they allow him to speak/lie.
I stopped watching because I kept screaming at the TV to get Harper off and stop him from interrupting and then speaking on and on. I would like to see the time break down. I think he was getting about 3 to 1 in speaking time to any other leader. But maybe he disgusts me so much it was actually only twice as much as any other leader.
The full frontal shots in comparison to any of the other leaders are unbelievable. Even the background is better behind him compared to the few times they show other leaders in frontal shots. I am in awe of the media moguls totally guileless manufacturing of consent in our democracy. They aren't even trying to hide it any more.
Don't worry about the actual debate because the MSM pundits have already decided what they are going to write and say no matter what was said. Democracy cannot function without a free press and ours has been bought and paid for.
Wow, I've never had a problem trying to post before but it blocked liked 10 comments in a row saying "comment field is needed"
Layton: Your party has a long history of making promises and breaking them right after elections.
Ignatieff: Well, at least we get elected.
Brilliant. Just brilliant.
