Being called a rapist isn't funny.

30 posts / 0 new

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Mon, 2011-04-18 17:52

PraetorianFour

I'm not posting this to make a fuss over the moderators decision in this thread.

http://rabble.ca/babble/feminism/slutwalk-toronto-sunday-april-3-130

While I disagree whole heartedly with the moderators decision, they are a moderator and I can accept the decision or leave. Pretty simple.

I AM posting this "rabble reaction" because I'm having troible trying to understand the mindset of the moderator (and other contributers)

and I don't want to bring the thread off topic anymore than it is.

I was called a rapist. The insinuation is pretty obvious.

Quote:

you poor penises could actually go to jail for raping that belly-flaunting slut! I feel your pain, P4. How's a guy to know any more who he can rape and get away with it! Those damned feminists have taken all the fun out of rape! Of course no one says boys and men invite rape in their tight football pants . . . What's up with that? And by your criteria, rape would be most prevalent and allowable on beaches where children and women and men wear very little clothing. It's tricky indeed for rapists these days! Tell me P4 . . . What do you look for in a
potential rape victim so you know you won't be punished? Is it sexy looking short tight skirts, or long loose ones that make access easier?

Like come on. We're really going smile look at our feet and shrug? That wasn't directed at me?

Do I actually think Deb believes I am a rapist? No of course not. Yet she is still accusing me of raping women. Personal attack. "You rape girls" ergo "you are a rapist"

Lots of P4's and You's.

Her defenders cite that she isn't making a personal attack but shes just

-Not responding nicely.

-satirizes your laughable suggestion

-remarkably good-natured exposé

-you better develop a thick skin.

-sarcastic rejoinder

Now I've read a lot of posts on this forum because I genuinely enjoy this place. Does anyone here think for a second if I were to make a "sarcastic good natured rejoinder" about someone faking rape or dressing sexually for attention or ANY other type of insulting comment, I wouldn't be banned or at the very least have the roof dropped on my head?

I've seen the above defending posters bring people to task for far less insulting and agressive not to mention hurtful comments.

Can I insinuate someone here is a drunk that always breaks the law and robs people and turn around and say I was just being sarcastic and making a funny reply because THEY said something I didn't like?

Naw I'd be banned. And that's not even me accusing them of doing violence and sexually assaulting another human being.

For all the great conversations that come out of this place there is a real childish tit for tat when it comes to personal attacks. The amount of greif you get from the mods (and other posters) depends on who you are, not what you say.

I just spent a fucking week in court while my kids mother was torn apart by a prick defense council. She was raped and sodomized with vegtables from the fridge and held against her will for 8 hours. She had pictures of marks all over her body and the defense argued she asked for it because one of her ex;s said she liked rough sex. And that she was drinking and doesn't remember the night very well. And she has asthma so she may have had an attack and bla bla. This asshole with a history of rapes, drug charges and assaults, whos going on trial in a few weeks for assaulting someone else, gets aquitted. Even though there were half a dozen witnesses who said "she told me she was raped and assaulted the day after it happened".

You know what? There's nothing fucking funny, laughable, satirical or good natured about anything to do with rape. BEING raped or getting CALLED a rapist.

You should give your collective heads a shake and grow the fuck up.

Mon, 2011-04-18 18:44

remind

First off, my heart goes out to the mother of your children, it is not something that will ever leave her.

Having said that, I think you need to read what you wrote in that thread again, and ask yourself how women would feel who have been raped reading that. Especially the part about "Isn't dressing less slutty on a basic level good advice". As if the label slut was an actual valid one pertinent to anything, let alone one that is applied solely to women. And think about the reality of how one dresses is NOT an excuse/reason to allow RAPE.

YOU blammed the victims pure and simple and when we reacted to your sexism and bias, as we had every right to, you now you want us to grow the fuck up and give our heads a shake....

Heads up, what you said is no different than what the man who did this to your children's mother and his lawyer said about her in court.

Mon, 2011-04-18 18:50

Searosia

I dunno P4....going into the fem forum on a topic about men somehow getting a free ride for rape based on what a woman is wearing...then letting the females know what a man feels they should do:

Quote:
If I was a woman I would be really consciencious of what I was wearing and where.

and then repeating

Quote:
While no man has a right to put his hands on a woman we all know how some men in soceity think and act.

when the point of the event is to address how "some men in society" think and act.
So I assume you missed the point of the thread and felt you should comment anyway...Deb's response asking you what you think the minimum clothing you feel acceptable for a man to be able to get away with rape seemed appropriate given your post.
Did you read the quote Maysie posted?

Quote:

Women's groups and activists get too brief sound bites to explain that rape mythology is a systemic issue within and beyond policing, and not about one bad apple or misguided cop, one isolated crime or comment. Nor, for that matter, is it about one good cop, a "happy" victim or a "sensitivity" course. Instead, there are many integrations and manifestations of rape mythology that show up in evidence-gathering, training content and structure, as well as in the police military culture.

Why would you goto a thread addressing the systemic issue and post what amounts to a repetition of the issue being addressed? I would suggest spending more time reading the forum than posting on it.

(eta: in hindsight the FF on babble can handle itself...I don't know why I felt the need to post this?)

Tue, 2011-04-19 07:26

Caissa

Regardless of P4's comments, Deb's were improper and should have been censured by the mods rather than defended by them.

Tue, 2011-04-19 08:44

Slumberjack

I think that when an account of rape appears in the FF, one might very well expect there to be victims of rape involved as participants to the discussion. When someone subsequently enters the discussion with a 'cause and effect' remark about the way victims may have presented themselves in public, it is difficult to avoid such an instance being interpreted at face value as an utterly ignorant comment and a complete re-victimization of those already present. To then turn around and plead the victim because of the subsequent and completely justifiable outrage over the remarks frankly just piles it on. Apparently victims are expected to apologize for remarks that flow from traumatic crimes that bear life-long implications.

Tue, 2011-04-19 09:13

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

It's really far more simple than that. P4 needs to understand that, for the most part, the feminist forum is a place where men should think at least twice before posting. It is a place where we can learn much, but where our input is seldom useful.

Tue, 2011-04-19 09:38

Catchfire

Here is a common scenario: man enters feminism forum. Man says something ignorant and offensive. Woman responds with poise and humor (rather than, incredibly, with hurt and anger) and reveals ignorant, offensive comment for what it is. Man, instead of realizing his error, responds hurt and angered, thus perverting the original dynamic and the whole point of the feminism forum. I know many babblers think this is complicated, or wrongheaded, but it is the way the feminist forum has been run for as long as I've been here, and it will stay this way for the foreseeable future. So get your lead out if you must, but this is the way things are.

Tue, 2011-04-19 09:44

remind

Caissa wrote:
Regardless of P4's comments, Deb's were improper and should have been censured by the mods rather than defended by them.

"Regardless of P4's comments"? Is a statement beyond belief. One cannot disregard P4's words as they were the causal agent behind Deb's appropriately sarcastic response.

The words that were improper were in fact P4's.

We need NOT tolerate that kind of sexist crap in the feminist forum, nor anywhere at rabble, about rape. Just like we do not need to tolerate this latest misogynist crap of his either.

Tue, 2011-04-19 09:45

Caissa

Deb infered P4 was a rapist that is a personal attack. all dfenses of her words are beyong belief.

Tue, 2011-04-19 09:52

#10

remind

P4 told us women that we are at fault for our being raped and that women are slutty who dress a certain way and that if we do what do we expect other than to get raped. This was here at rabble babble not some CBC response thread.

Anyone who defends his words and thinks the woman who humourfully tackled him on it is out of line is just as gobbsmackingly sexist as P4. As apparently you cannot get your head around what a misogynist attack his words were. This means your patriarchial lens is so firmly in place that you do not see misogyny for what it is and does.

Tue, 2011-04-19 10:01

#11

Caissa

I have never defended P4s words. The woman who attacked him was out of line.

Tue, 2011-04-19 10:02

#12

Catchfire

Nobody called or inferred that P4 is or was a rapist. To convince oneself that she did so requires an enormous amount of self-righteousness and self-delusion. Perhaps they don't teach satire in schools anymore. The entire post is based on the premise that P4 is *not* a rapist. But of course, that's obvious. That's the last I'll say of the matter.

Tue, 2011-04-19 10:02

#13

Slumberjack

The issue surrounding ones attire is an extremely inappropriate non-sequitur line of reasoning to begin with. When you have females of all age groups represented as victims of rape no matter how they were dressed, it isn't about clothing, and never was.

Tue, 2011-04-19 10:09

#14

Caissa

Oh so its open season on satire at babble. as long as you use satire you can be excused personal attacks. I'm glad to know this. It will come in handy in the future. The mofderators are setting a dangerous precedent here.

Tue, 2011-04-19 11:26

#15

deb93

Due to 'technical difficulties', I have not been able to view or respond until now.

I do apologize if my hypothetical and sarcastic response seemed to be a personal attack, P4.

That was not my intent but I see how you could take it that way.

Being called responsible for being raped because of what one wears "isn't funny" either.

Pedophiles claim that babies and children dress or act provocatively too. Do 'we' excuse them too?

Point being ... some men rape and some don't and men should not be making excuses for rapists by blaming victims.

Please pardon me if I was outside the forum rules.

Tue, 2011-04-19 11:30

#16

Maysie

Greetings from somewhere between Kingston and Toronto.

I'm not sure how helpful any contribution of mine will be to this discussion at this point, but what the hell.

In the original thread, I responded nicely, kindly, pretty damn smartly and with an assumption (it's a correct assumption, by the way) that PraetorianFour's offensive and extremely ignorant questions were asked not out of malice or provocation, but from a basic place of ignorance. A private message exchange confirmed that for me.

I chose to respond the way I did, but I could very well have responded the way that Deb did. I know I've said this a million times, but my decade+ of work in the violence against women (VAW) sector has left me with precious little tolerance for men who can easily find information without asking real live feminists in 2011 about rape, rape myths, and societally perpetuated bullshit about what women wear, etc. The Jane Doe piece linked in the original thread shows that better than I could ever express it.

I was in a mellow mood in that thread, at that time. While nobody in this thread has said anything about my response, I will probably respond like that to someone in the future. It's being an educator I think. Sometimes it's a damn curse.

But ya know, I might also say "Fuck you", which I believe I DID say to someone recently in another thread about a woman who killed her husband after years of abuse from him with no helpful response from the police.

P4's real life example of the abuse his partner suffered at the hands of the legal system should have some of the pieces falling into place for him. Maybe.

Violence against women, which includes rape, is not only the acts of individuals. It's systemic. Read about it. There are first person accounts that women have chosen to put out there in the wilds of the interwebs, in the hopes of reaching other women to help them, and possibly with the ancillary effect of educating well-meaning men.

Tue, 2011-04-19 17:10

#17

MegB

P4 most, I repeat MOST women I know have been sexually assaulted at some point in their life. Your comments re-victimize them.

Your crying victim here is, at best disingenuous. That's the least offensive word I can come up with, though I sacrifice acurracy by using it. If you refuse to understand why your comments in the feminist forum are an outrage to women, then I strongly suggest you educate yourself before wading in to territory that is obviously a complete mystery to you.

Deb, those of us who are informed know the purpose and intent of your post, and know it is not an accusation of any kind.

P.S. Total drift - hi to Maysie from somewhere between Toronto and London!

Wed, 2011-04-20 02:52

#18

milo204

personally, i think both comments were in bad taste and neither really gels with the policies here on babble. P4's was clearly offensive and totally uninformed. But at the same time, the sarcastic personal attack isn't cool either, even if the poster kinda deserved a ripping, i think there's plenty of ways to do it within the limits of babbles stated rules.

Wed, 2011-04-20 04:07

#19

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

milo, you obviously don't get the Feminism Forum, I'm listening. Could Deb have taken it easier? Nope, and I'm glad she didn't. You males should Fuck off with your dispute.

Suck it up nancy.

Wed, 2011-04-20 04:09

#20

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

hyperbole meant sarcastic, apologies sisters.

Wed, 2011-04-20 04:11

#21

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

my sister loves the phrase to use towards us guys.

Wed, 2011-04-20 07:39

#22

Caissa

This is rabble reactions. It is sad that the moderators think personal attacks are excusable just because they are in the FF. I though Deb 93's apology would put an end to this discussion. Instead it seems the moderators want to continue to justify their inaction.

Wed, 2011-04-20 08:09

#23

Slumberjack

Settling on this particular issue the way you have only highlights an alarmingly narrow understanding of what actually transpired.

Wed, 2011-04-20 18:04

#24

milo204

RP, judging by your response to me, i'm not surprised you don't find the comments in bad taste.

"suck it up nancy"?? that's a borderline homophobic slur, by the way. Can't you respond without calling people names?

Thu, 2011-04-21 18:18

#25

PraetorianFour

deb93 wrote:

Due to 'technical difficulties', I have not been able to view or respond until now.

I do apologize if my hypothetical and sarcastic response seemed to be a personal attack, P4.

That was not my intent but I see how you could take it that way.

Being called responsible for being raped because of what one wears "isn't funny" either.

Pedophiles claim that babies and children dress or act provocatively too. Do 'we' excuse them too?

Point being ... some men rape and some don't and men should not be making excuses for rapists by blaming victims.

Please pardon me if I was outside the forum rules.

Appology accepted, thank you Deb. I know you weren't implying that I really was a rapist but you did insinuate I was with your comments. I knew some would play down your comments as no big deal. I however feel that it is a big deal and hopefully this thread will make someone think twice before making "harmless and good natured" insinuations that fellow babble posters rape women. Not because for fear of punishment but because it really isn't funny or respectful.

for sure, what someone wears doesn't mean they are somehow responsible for being raped. I don't believe I said someone who dresses in a proctive manner is either "asking for it" or "responsible for being assaulted". I WAS under the impression of and the opinion that if a woman dresses in a very proctive manner they may be more inclined to recieve unwanted attention. Like it was pointed out, it has no real impact on the % or chances of someone being assaulted.

Quote:
Pedophiles claim that babies and children dress or act provocatively too. Do 'we' excuse them too?

No of course not. But let me ask you this. What do YOU think about parents of 9 and 10 year old girls who dress them like "sexy adults" for lack of a beater term.

Dress them up like adults and make websites with their 9 year old pictures on it. "Totally innocent" websites charging $100 a month for subscribers to join and thumb through the pictures. Subscribers which include Lawyers, police officers, judges, doctors.

Do we excuse the pedophiles? No. But what about parents who dress their kids that way and parade them around?

This has nothing to do with the topic of women and being raped but you mentioned pedophiles, children and making excuses so I'm curious to hear what you think of those sickening sites.

milo204 wrote:

RP, judging by your response to me, i'm not surprised you don't find the comments in bad taste.

"suck it up nancy"?? that's a borderline homophobic slur, by the way. Can't you respond without calling people names?

Funny isn't it.

</p> <p><a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nancy+boy">http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nancy+boy</a></p> <p>[quote wrote:

Nancy Boy

A homosexual male or an effeminate man, also written nancy-boy, nancy.

usage: derogatory slag

Is calling someone a Nancy a politer version of calling them a queer or fag? Or is it okay because your sister says it?

Thu, 2011-04-21 18:28

#26

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

I wasn't aware of that connotation of the phrase nor word. Thanks for pointing it out and please accept my apologies as I did not mean it in that way at all. We picked it up from Everybody Loves Raymond and just use it in jest when we're complaining about something to each other.

Thu, 2011-04-21 18:56

#27

Catchfire

P4, you have, again, totally and utterly missed the point. Your comments are incredibly offensive and come close to excusing pedophilia. I know you don't understand this, and despite the many ways this has been explained to you, some nice, some not-so-nice, you have opted to refuse to reconsider your ignorance. You are no longer welcome in the feminism forum. You are no longer welcome to comment on cases of sexual assault. If you do, you will be banned. I hope that's clear.

Thanks for your apology and retraction, RP.

Fri, 2011-04-22 00:47

#28

milo204

no hard feelings RP!

Fri, 2011-04-22 09:55

#29

PraetorianFour

Ya ya Catchfire, keep rocking that double standard. Being called a rapist is good natured fun but I still manage to be INCREDIBLY offensive by what, suggesting parents that dress 9 year olds like 25 year olds are stupid and putting their children in possible harms way.

Of COURSE you would turn that around and get offended. I'm not excusing pedophiles, I think they should be locked up for life. Actually what I REALLY think should happen to them is far more physical. Rapes aren't taken seriously enough and the sentences should be three times as long.

I have some perfect examples from this weekend about how you dress can increase unwanted attention but you'll just turn it around I'm sure. I never said it's an excuse to be raped but thinking long and hard about it I still believe that how you dress and present yourself can and does influence someones behavior towards you. In a perfect world a woman could wear a fig leaf and be treated the same way as one in a business suit. News flash, that isn't our soceity. It's sad that men take seeing a scantaly clad women as an invitation, wrong as it is. There is never an excuse when a man rapes a woman, it's never the womans fault. Ever. But women CAN help avoid putting themselves in situations where they are more likely to be assaulted. Walking alone at night, which routes they take? At parties never putting their drinks down where it can be drugged.

Side note- I always used to wonder years ago, I was on a dating site when i was single and I would see girls dressed in mini skirts & bras, tons of pictures like that with their interests being sex, threesomes, drinking, partying etc..names like hotbabygurl69 then they would fill in their description and say "I hate when guys treat me like a slut". Really? Im such an asshole.

If I show up at a rabble.ca party in combat pants, a "feel free to stand infront of our soldiers if you don't stand behind them" t-shirt and a VOTE HARPER button on my jacket how is everyone going to treat me? Even before I open my mouth and say hello, you're going to instantly judge me just because of how I am dressed and treat me a certain way (at least initally). When i first got here aside from saying what i did for a living I made a point of not really talking about it, but that didn't stop people from lining up to get jabs in and try to paint me in a certain light.

I really don't have a clue I guess.

Catchfire do me and the rest of the board a favor and delete my account and please take me off the mailing list. Thanks

Fri, 2011-04-22 11:56

#30

Catchfire

P4, I'm giving you three days to cool off, and I'm closing this thread.

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