I didn't endorse this Parliament. Did you? (3)

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Sun, 2011-05-08 12:08

Tobold Rollo

Quote:

George Victor wrote:

You "don't get" lots of things, TR, because of your foreshortened view of historical change. From your description of the decimation of labour - "they've been eroding slowly for decades" - one would think that supranatural forces were at work, not the concerted effort of capital to make destruction of bargaining power certain, beginning in the 1970s.

When I say economic rights have been eroding for decades I mean precisely that there has been a concerted effort on the part of business elites to erode them. I've said it a million times.

The issue is that political parties have been proxies, not agents, of both the emergence and erosion of labour rights. This is a contest between labour activists and business elites.With the labour activists all but gone, business elites can do whatever they want and all the parties, including the NDP, are willing servants.

Issues Pages:

Elections

Regions:

Sun, 2011-05-08 12:24

Tobold Rollo

...

Sun, 2011-05-08 12:29

Tobold Rollo

Quote:

Lard Tunderin Jeezus wrote:

The indefensible argument being made here is that 'direct action', on its own, can accomplish political goals without the support of (and without supporting) political parties - which require the vote.

I've already demonstrated that the alternate premise, that parties are necessary, is false. For not only did we received the most basic economic right, eg, collective bargaining rights, in the complete absence of a progressive party in Parliament (1872), we have also seen the erosion of economic rights (NAFTA) at the same time as we have had the strongest presence in Parliament (NDP 43 seats, 1988-1993). So the evidence suggests just the opposite of what you are trying to claim. This is the uncomfortable set of circumstances you have yet to deal with: We saw the greatest surge in economic rights at a time when progressive parties were their weakest, and the greatest erosion of economic rights at a time when progressive parties were their strongest.

Sun, 2011-05-08 14:29

Slumberjack

Tobold Rollo wrote:
With the labour activists all but gone, business elites can do whatever they want...

They're not entirely absent. Everything suggests that its been a rather difficult task to motivate the upper middle class leadership echelon of the larger organizatons which continue to enjoy the successes of the past, toward the realities of a future that awaits everyone in turn, once the comfortable status quo has run its course and neo-liberalism comes calling once again for more concessions. They remain unconvinced that their survival will ultimately depend on the vast majority of the working poor who were forsaken by organized labour decades ago to the exigencies of the free market. Activism in that regard has become an insular arrangement of limited scope, designed to perpetuate and maintain as many of the advantages inherent to an accustomed lifestyle of a dwindling membership for as long as possible.

Sun, 2011-05-08 14:50

Tobold Rollo

Slumberjack wrote:

Tobold Rollo wrote:
With the labour activists all but gone, business elites can do whatever they want...

They're not entirely absent.

While it is true that labour activims isn't dead, it is true that there is a complete absence of the kind of labour activism that propelled change. There is nobody getting killed on picket-lines, no systematic sabotage, no general strikes, etc. Again, I'm not advocating a return to tthis kind of confrontation, I'm simply pointing to the conditions that did result in change. What will work now or in the future, I don't know. BUt it's pretty clear that political parties, weekend protests, petitions, and similar strategies have been throroughly co-opted.

Sun, 2011-05-08 14:56

George Victor

quote: "What will work now or in the future, I don't know"

How could you?

Sun, 2011-05-08 15:11

Merowe

Slumberjack wrote:

Tobold Rollo wrote:
With the labour activists all but gone, business elites can do whatever they want...

They're not entirely absent. Everything suggests that its been a rather difficult task to motivate the upper middle class leadership echelon of the larger organizatons which continue to enjoy the successes of the past, toward the realities of a future that awaits everyone in turn, once the comfortable status quo has run its course and neo-liberalism comes calling once again for more concessions. They remain unconvinced that their survival will ultimately depend on the vast majority of the working poor who were forsaken by organized labour decades ago to the exigencies of the free market. Activism in that regard has become an insular arrangement of limited scope, designed to perpetuate and maintain as many of the advantages inherent to an accustomed lifestyle of a dwindling membership for as long as possible.

Wow. Well said.

Sun, 2011-05-08 15:22

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

When unions figure out how to organize our youth then progress will be made.

The above statement is an example of upside down thinking. The reason why young people ignore both unions and politicians is neither are offering them very much. I said 15 years ago when the two tiered contracts started appearing that the labour movement had lost. Solidarity is not having a two tiered system were some people have been grandfathered into a middle class income and benefit package and the young people behind them are worse off than at non union stores.

The only thing that has ever brought change is the collective actions of motivated individuals. I was listening to some Anne Feeney and thought about this thread. I believe that the sit down strikes in Oshawa had far more of an effect than any parliamentary action. I think that the protracted strikes at INCO in the 50's and 60's for pensions had far more of an effect on getting those things than parliamentary action. Getting gains formalized is a benefit of electing MP's but they do not drive the change. I vote because I can't stand to leave any field of battle to the right however I think that parliament and social democratic parties are after the fact not the cutting edge. The real change happens first.

Quote:

When they tie the can to a union man,
Sit down! Sit down!
When they give him the sack, they'll take him back.
Sit down! Sit down!

Chorus:
Sit down, just take a seat,
Sit down, and rest your feet,
Sit down, you've got 'em beat.
Sit down! Sit down!

When they smile and say, "No raise in pay,"
Sit down! Sit down!
When you want the boss to come across,
Sit down! Sit down!

When the speed-up comes, just twiddle your thumbs,
Sit down! Sit down!
When you want'em to know, they'd better go slow,
Sit down! Sit down!

When the boss won't talk, don't take a walk,
Sit down! Sit down!
When the boss sees that, he'll want a little chat,
Sit down! Sit down!

Quote:

Have You Been To Jail For Justice lyrics

Was it Cesar Chavez? Maybe it was Dorothy Day
Some will say Dr. King or Gandhi set them on their way
No matter who your mentors are it's pretty plain to see
That, if you've been to jail for justice, you're in good company

Have you been to jail for justice? I want to shake your hand
Cause sitting in and lyin' down are ways to take a stand
Have you sung a song for freedom? or marched that picket line?
Have you been to jail for justice? Then you're a friend of mine

You law abiding citizens, come listen to this song
Laws were made by people, and people can be wrong
Once unions were against the law, but slavery was fine
Women were denied the vote and children worked the mine
The more you study history the less you can deny it
A rotten law stays on the books til folks like us defy it

The law's supposed to serve us, and so are the police
And when the system fails, it's up to us to speak our peace
It takes eternal vigilancefor justice to prevail
So get courage from your convictions
Let them haul you off to jail!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGUCUtCCIhU

http://www.annefeeney.com/

Sun, 2011-05-08 16:28

Catchfire

George Victor wrote:

quote: "What will work now or in the future, I don't know"

How could you?

George, Rebecca and I have given you ample warning. You can't seem to post without insulting someone. I can't recall the last time you put your well-read knoweldge to productive and positive use. I told you the next time you attacked another babbler, you'd be suspended for a week. So, you are. See you in a week.

Sun, 2011-05-08 17:08

#10

NDPP

The people must become aware of and concentrate their own powers, to either control their political agents and intermediaries, or replace them altogether. As it is they are treated as cattle, milk and meat by political parties that exploit them, lie to them, and misrepresent them. Stick before carrot and never, ever trust any of them. Best and safest to count them all as enemies and act accordingly. The ones that claim to be friends are the most treacherous of all.

Sun, 2011-05-08 17:36

#11

Fidel

Just thought I'd comment on the Canada is pregnant with revolution narrative, which is just not true as much as we'd like it to be:

<a href="http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/i-didnt-endorse-parliament-did-you-2#comment-1252983">Slumberjack</a> wrote:
If the preference of the elite involves having peaceful citizen protestors beaten, tear gassed and arrested in the streets, that is what transpires. The G20 was just another warning that they are no longer prepared to even entertain the localized nusiances of the past, such as the anti-globalization movement, or peace activism. The elite didn't just drop the gauntlet. They used it to lay about the heads of the citizenry. They tolerate the NDP because the futility of it amuses them.

What the elites don't want are legitimate left wing political opposition groups gaining momentum. This is true, for example, of the USA's creations: the Mujahideen, Taliban, Hamas, Contras, etc. They even propped-up the Khmer Rouge due their lust for blood and violence. Their goals have been to prop-up extremists in order to destabilize those parts of the world. Destabilizing countries prevents democracy from happening and creates an invitation for more violence and western world miltiary intervention.

But this is Canada, a legitimate democracy in the eyes of the empire. The elites and their chicken little hirelings in Ottawa don't want to destabilize us. And any electoral victories for the left here must be recognized throughout the western world as they are in several Nordic social democracies. There has been no blood in the streets or army snipers on roof tops watching over G20 protests in Sweden, Norway, or Denmark.

Slumberjack wrote:
To see dissent being drawn into and folded over and over on itself within an apparatus where they control all the levers must be a source of comfort for them.

Now youre rambling again. We just have to beat these vicious toadies in Ottawa in four year's time. And they are very beatable. What we don't need now is to delegitimize ourselves or send out any invitations for the army or cops to intervene. The NDP is a legitimate social democratic party, and they will have to recognize any future electoral victories. We are the official and effective opposition in Ottawa as things stand now. Nothing's stopping us from electing Canada's first NDP government in this decade. This is the goal- to win the battle for democracy. Eyes on the prize.

NDP? It's a [size=16]PRO DEMOCRACY[/size] Party, and we are gaining momentum.

Sun, 2011-05-08 17:40

#12

NDPP

which will be used over and over again in the next 4 years to explain away all their silences and/or compromises on key issues.

Sun, 2011-05-08 17:51

#13

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Fidel wrote:

We just have to beat these vicious toadies in Ottawa in four year's time. And they are very beatable. That's the goal - keep our eyes on the prize.

That is not the goal. The goal is a just society where people don't starve or have to line up for their daily bread. I don't want a fucking prize I want a better world.

At the slow pace that everyone seems to acknowledge is the best case scenario it will be a decade after the NDP gets into power before we get those lines down to the grotesque levels they are at now. That is unless you believe that after four more years of Harper rule the rate will have dropped from current levels.

To little too late is the reason many poor people ignore all parties. None of them are offering to fix their problems. Bankrupt people living in their cars don't pay credit card interest. I suspect the idea of using tax breaks to create employment is a better selling point to the middle and upper class than it is to people on the fringes of our economy. Bold employment programs are not merely tax breaks.

So Fidel I hope you find a good prize in your cracker Jack box. A plastic whistle for everyone sounds like a great campaign slogan.

Quote:

here IS hunger in Canada

In 2010, close to 900,000 people were assisted each month by a food bank in Canada. This was 9% higher than in 2009 and 28% higher than in 2008. Thanks in large part to the effects of the recession, in 2009, 72,000 people per month walked through the doors of a food bank for the first time.

Sun, 2011-05-08 18:17

#14

Fidel

Northern Shoveler wrote:
That is not the goal. The goal is a just society where people don't starve or have to line up for their daily bread. I don't want a fucking prize I want a better world.

Democracy and bread for sure.

Northern Shovller wrote:
At the slow pace that everyone seems to acknowledge is the best case scenario it will be a decade after the NDP gets into power before we get those lines down to the grotesque levels they are at now. That is unless you believe that after four more years of Harper rule the rate will have dropped from current levels.

The way I see it is that the two old line parties are losing ground not gaining as their neoliberal ideology wanes. Yes, 30 years is a long time to have to wait for collapse of laissez-faire made new again under neoliberalism. But we have to concede that they were able to create an illusion of success in the late 90s. It's over now, and like the big swan dive in 1929, they won't be fixing Humpty Dumpty anytime soon. Three decades three recessions. It's really broken this time. Enter the NDP in official opposition status for the first time in history of the party.

Northern Shovller wrote:
To little too late is the reason many poor people ignore all parties. None of them are offering to fix their problems. Bankrupt people living in their cars don't pay credit card interest. I suspect the idea of using tax breaks to create employment is a better selling point to the middle and upper class than it is to people on the fringes of our economy. Bold employment programs are not merely tax breaks.

The NDP will not be offering Liberal Party slogans or Red Book promises over the next four years. In fact, the Harpers will likely try and steal the NDP's thunder whenever. Harpers are going to look somewhat pink in four year's time. It's either that or they will blow their chances for re-election in 2015. My guess is that they won't do a Brian Mulroney of things. USSA was a somewhat prosperous trade partner then with prospects for the future. That's all changed now. The NDP will be pushing for poverty relief, social housing, child care and all kinds of things to de-Puerto Ricanize this northern colony. It will be almost as if the NDP has a cabinet seat in government their ideas will be that difficult for the Harpers to ignore.

Sun, 2011-05-08 19:09

#15

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

I try to believe but like my catholic mother used to say, "in the end it comes down to faith." If you don''t have the faith all preaching falls on closed ears. I get your preachy message I just don't share your faith. I'd like to believe the NDP will lead us to a New Jerusalem but I don't.

Sun, 2011-05-08 19:58

#16

Fidel

And sometimes you just have to vote against the stoogeaucracy and their bad record of government lest you receive more of the same old same-old. Abstaining from voting leads to no good - just ask the Liberal Party.

Sun, 2011-05-08 21:31

#17

Slumberjack

Northern Shoveler wrote:
The reason why young people ignore both unions and politicians is neither are offering them very much. I said 15 years ago when the two tiered contracts started appearing that the labour movement had lost. Solidarity is not having a two tiered system were some people have been grandfathered into a middle class income and benefit package and the young people behind them are worse off than at non union stores.

Most of the youth in this country aren't offered anything in the way of a calling into the ranks of unionized labour. For them second tier contracts within a labour movement would represent a vast improvement over the drudgery of big box retail, fast food, call centers, and being skimmed by parasitic employment agencies. No one is engaging youth on these issues where they live and work. Billionaire owners of the McWage industries wouldn't be amused by such stirrings in any event. As a result, the youth have already been handed a glimpse into a future where the prospects look remarkably similar to the present circumstances. They certainly won't be convinced by the spectacle of vote mob bandwagons largely organized by offspring of the political establishment and other hangers on, and spun by the corporate media as a legitimate outpouring of youthful angst resonating all over the place.

Sun, 2011-05-08 21:49

#18

Slumberjack

Fidel wrote:
What the elites don't want are legitimate left wing political opposition groups gaining momentum.

True enough. Which is why the NDP have gained a measure of acceptance from the ruling class as a relatively harmless vehicle for channeling much of the non-conforming sentiments out there into the confines of an organization where a few dangling carrots suffices to muffle even the dullest of roars. It still doesn't prevent them from being the object of ridicule by the reactionary media, if only as a reminder of who calls the shots. The not so subtle message being that a little poking fun could always change into something else, so mind your Ps and Qs.

Fidel wrote:
Now youre rambling again.

I'm rambling? This from someone who desperately needs some new material so those hard ridden toadies can catch a break.

Sun, 2011-05-08 22:03

#19

Slumberjack

Catchfire wrote:
See you in a week.

I'm certainly not in any race to become President of George's fan club around here, and I doubt if I'll make it on his Christmas card list for yet another year running....ah well. A week though for a relatively innocuous one liner. The whole place is full of back and forth barbs of varying wit and intensity.

Sun, 2011-05-08 22:26

#20

Fidel

Slumberjack wrote:

Fidel wrote:
What the elites don't want are legitimate left wing political opposition groups gaining momentum.

True enough. Which is why the NDP have gained a measure of acceptance from the ruling class as a relatively harmless vehicle for channeling much of the non-conforming sentiments out there into the confines of an organization where a few dangling carrots suffices to muffle even the dullest of roars. It still doesn't prevent them from being the object of ridicule by the reactionary media, if only as a reminder of who calls the shots. The not so subtle message being that a little poking fun could always change into something else, so mind your Ps and Qs.

Yes, and now Jack and Olivia are moving into Stornoway. Imagine that.

Your coincidence theory that the NDP must have sold their souls for legitimacy in the eyes of Canadians doesn't hold water though. This is the party that introduced so many progressive bills in the House of Commons that the two old line partiers needed to pop gravols they were so dizzy'd by it all. Iggy felt so uncompetitive he didn't show up for work 70% of the time.

And you've completely ignored the fact that Nordic social democracies have existed for many years. Swede's are happy with their economically competitive social democracy. Danes too. And besides having a sovereign wealth/national pension fund worth somewhere around $400 billion, Norwegians are enjoying:

- well funded socialized medicine

- national daycare

- free education from K-12 to university for all Norwegians

- high average incomes

- Zero national debt/net creditor nation

And yet people in those countries aren't crying and whining over an all-powerful grim reaper on the right you say we have no alternative but to hide under our beds and cower from. That's strange, don't you think? Who's afraid of the big bad wolf besides you? The cracken ain't real, and I'm goin' fishin'.

Slumberjack wrote:
Fidel wrote:
Now youre rambling again.

I'm rambling? This from someone who desperately needs some new material so those hard ridden toadies can catch a break.

[/quote]

Right. Whenever you have something real to say, just spit it out. No need to blither. And besides, they won't pay us for being junior mint toadies to a bunch of vicious toadies in Ottawa. I could never get used to being one of those anyway. ;-

Sun, 2011-05-08 22:27

#21

Slumberjack

Fidel wrote:
It's over now, and like the big swan dive in 1929, they won't be fixing Humpty Dumpty anytime soon. Three decades three recessions. It's really broken this time. .... My guess is that they won't do a Brian Mulroney of things.

It will be almost as if the NDP has a cabinet seat in government their ideas will be that difficult for the Harpers to ignore.

It's not over by a long shot. There's still pension and health care systems in North America to dismantle. Once the project of serfdom has reached its final conclusion in the USA, the free flow of commodities and the remaining fly by night manufacturing base will ensure that our turn will come via the battle for competitiveness under the borderless NAFTA agreement. The Harper minority managed to ignore everything before. Now they'll just steamroll their agenda like a smash and grab where everything is within easy reach. Once they've had their run and the media has had four years to make a circus act out of the NDP, the elite will be ready with a reformed liberal organization ready to tag up and slam us once again to the mat.

Sun, 2011-05-08 22:29

#22

NDPP

re: George V etc

I agree - I have always been quietly appalled by the acquiescence on a supposedly progressive board to these arbitrary plug pullings. It should most certainly be a developmental task of Babblers to improve upon this frequently undeserved and offensive practise and review the powers granted to those who exercise them. We're not unruly children here.

Sun, 2011-05-08 22:33

#23

Slumberjack

Fidel wrote:
And you've completely ignored the fact that Nordic social democracies have existed for many years. Swede's are happy with their economically competitive social democracy. Danes too. And besides having a sovereign wealth/national pension fund worth somewhere around $400 billion, Norwegians are enjoying....

We're not any of those peripheral countries. There's far more loot at stake around the G8 table. Their turn will come eventually though. The baltics have already had their fill.

Sun, 2011-05-08 23:13

#24

Fidel

Slumberjack wrote:

Fidel wrote:
And you've completely ignored the fact that Nordic social democracies have existed for many years. Swede's are happy with their economically competitive social democracy. Danes too. And besides having a sovereign wealth/national pension fund worth somewhere around $400 billion, Norwegians are enjoying....

We're not any of those peripheral countries. There's far more loot at stake around the G8 table. Their turn will come eventually though. The baltics have already had their fill.

Did you know that in Sweden 80% of two year olds attend pre-school?

Were you aware that In 2009, all the following countries had a higher rate of government spending as a % of GDP than Canada: Austria, Belgium, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Spain and Sweden. Canada was at 43.8%. The top OECD countries averaged 47.7%.

Or that according to government spending per person the same year, all of the following were higher than Canada: Netherlands, Austria, France, Belgium, Switzerland, Sweden, Germany, United States and Italy?

Did you know that All these countries have far more women as a percentage in their main national legislatures than Canada, some more than twice as many: Rwanda, Sweden, South Africa, Argentina, Germany, Mexico, Iraq, and the UAE. China is just about the same as we are, just over 20%. The U.S. is just about 18%?

Did you know that the percentage of Canada's male labour force are workers covered by a registered pension plan in 2009 was only 31.7%, down 11% since 1992?

Did we realize that the OECD and The Economist show that of all the developed nations, Canada closely follows the U.S. in the heavy dependency by newspapers on advertising as a % of total revenue, far, far ahead of countries like Japan, Britain, Italy, Germany, Sweden, for example. Interesting.

(Statistics and info from Mel Hurtig, former Liberal Party Member)

And not all of those countries are even Nordic social democracies. Canada could be doing a lot better as G8/20 comparisons go. Those countries aren't even afraid of the bogey man.

Slumberjack wrote:
The baltics have already had their fill.

The EU and US-based IMF and WB are using Latvia as a model for wildly successful neoliberal reforms. The only problem with Latvia is that they didn't vote for neoliberalism so much as they voted against Russian ethnics living in Latvia and their political candidates. It won't last. Some large percentage of Latvian youth are emigrating due to the poverty.

Sun, 2011-05-08 23:27

#25

Boom Boom

Slumberjack wrote:

Catchfire wrote:
See you in a week.

I'm certainly not in any race to become President of George's fan club around here, and I doubt if I'll make it on his Christmas card list for yet another year running....ah well. A week though for a relatively innocuous one liner. The whole place is full of back and forth barbs of varying wit and intensity.

I was about to post basically the same comment as George, before I saw that he's been suspended. Seemed innocent enough. I've asked the same type of question in some politics threads - "who knows what will happen in 2015". I didn't think I was insulting anyone with it.

Sun, 2011-05-08 23:41

#26

Fidel

¿A dónde tomaron ellos George? George?

Mon, 2011-05-09 01:24

#27

Catchfire

George has been given countless--and I mean I can literally not recall the number of times I have asked him to stop insulting other babblers--warnings to cease his habitual and gratuitous attacks. He has been warned, and he has been suspended several times. It's not sticking. George is a smart guy. He knows he is breaking the rules, and is duing so repeatedly and deliberately. I don't have much at my disposal other than asking people to respect each other, but when one shows utter disregard to include themselves in this community, there's not much else I can do. So unfortunately I will have to leave you with your "appalled acquiescence."

Mon, 2011-05-09 02:00

#28

Frmrsldr

My friend George was done wrong.

Mon, 2011-05-09 02:16

#29

NDPP

indeed I am appalled at the acquiescence - people can and have been popped off for nothing at all. The situation is unsatisfactory and oppressive and needs to be seriously looked at as abuses have most definitely occurred. Babblers have been 'zapped' undeservedly. There should be veto power of these decisions. My suggestion would be that if 3 Babblers agree the 'zap' was unwarranted, then it is rescinded. I understand the case for the taser but there must also be accountability, review and rescindment as well. I will not long continue participating if this arbitrary and unacceptable status quo continues.

Mon, 2011-05-09 06:35

#30

Slumberjack

Suddenly, the much sought after quietness and acquiescence has turned into downright rowdiness. Unless you're staring at a stack of flags from people who were perturbed enough along the way to indicate offense, including the last half-liner at #5, those reading list to-ing and fro-ing occasions, when left undisturbed, appear to be relatively self governing affairs for the most part.

Mon, 2011-05-09 08:24

#31

Slumberjack

Difficult to know what to make of that last statement Fidel. Is it an example of what centrist politics teaches us about solidarity and stickin ones neck out for someone, or is it merely the latest invention from the conspiracy mill? I recall going to bat for you as well on occasion, and receive a dildo in the mail for the effort.

Mon, 2011-05-09 08:30

#32

Caissa

I concur. George should not have been suspended for a week.

Mon, 2011-05-09 08:34

#33

NDPP

So is there any will here to take on the tasering?

Are there others here who find it unnecessarily used and oppressive?

I agree with Slumberjack that threads are and should be 'self governing' and the use of the zap must be curtailed dramatically, or eliminated entirely.

It is highly objectionable to see people suddenly eliminated and have the conversation continue as if nothing happened and no questions asked. I think the time has come to regulate this.

Thoughts?

Mon, 2011-05-09 08:36

#34

Caissa

Well, NDPP, with a Harper majority we should be expecting mandatory minimums and more jail sentences (I mean suspensions.)

Mon, 2011-05-09 08:51

#35

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Tobold Rollo wrote:

I've already demonstrated that the alternate premise, that parties are necessary, is false. For not only did we received the most basic economic right, eg, collective bargaining rights, in the complete absence of a progressive party in Parliament (1872), we have also seen the erosion of economic rights (NAFTA) at the same time as we have had the strongest presence in Parliament (NDP 43 seats, 1988-1993).

You've proven nothing. your analysis is to be kind, selective; and to be blunt, completely ahistorical.

George Brown led the fight to bring us collective bargaining rights, and he was certainly politically engaged, first elected in 1851.

And you ignore both the false majority mandates of the Conservatives that brought us the FTA, and the Liberals that brought us NAFTA. A "presence" in a majority Parliament is only a voice - how can you claim otherwise? Speaking of voices, you also ignore corporate consolidation of the media globally, and the corresponding trend here - while George Brown had the printing press, we had Conrad Black and the National Post.

Mon, 2011-05-09 08:53

#36

NDPP

Are you content with this?

Mon, 2011-05-09 08:54

#37

Caissa

LTJ wrote:

George Brown led the fight to bring us collective bargaining rights, and he was certainly politically engaged, first elected in 1851.

Ironic, that Brown was shot by a disgruntled employee.

Mon, 2011-05-09 08:58

#38

Slumberjack

I've never quite grasped any positives from the public trips behind the woodshed approach employed here over the years. I've always felt that the demeaning nature of some interactions between posters is further demeaned by public spankings. Probably something residule out of my catholic school years. As far as mobilizing to regulate this or that, i'd be wary about personalizing it to the fine folks admining the joint. They signed on to an existing culture from way back, like we all did. It doesn't mean we have to like it...or maintain our dislike in perpetual silence.

Mon, 2011-05-09 09:20

#39

NDPP

Slumberjack wrote:

As far as mobilizing to regulate this or that, i'd be wary about personalizing it to the fine folks admining the joint. They signed on to an existing culture from way back, like we all did. It doesn't mean we have to like it...or maintain our dislike in perpetual silence.

NDPP

I concur. So let us make the necessary changes and improvements. Others in support?

Mon, 2011-05-09 09:41

#40

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Catchfire wrote:

George has been given countless--and I mean I can literally not recall the number of times I have asked him to stop insulting other babblers--warnings to cease his habitual and gratuitous attacks. He has been warned, and he has been suspended several times. It's not sticking. George is a smart guy. He knows he is breaking the rules, and is duing so repeatedly and deliberately. I don't have much at my disposal other than asking people to respect each other, but when one shows utter disregard to include themselves in this community, there's not much else I can do. So unfortunately I will have to leave you with your "appalled acquiescence."

I hadn't seen that George had been censured.

I've been trying to stay out of these threads since I determined for myself that Tobold Rollo is completely dishonest, and purely engaged in trolling with outrageous and never-substantiated claims. But George took him on, rather than allowing him to taint this forum with his trail of slippery sewage, and if George got frustrated with TB's antics and insulted his warty green ass, it's completely understandable.

George was entirely correct in his dissection of TB's nonsense. In response, TB simply repeated his ignorance over and over with the most minor of variations, and never a "true fact" to be seen. And he was encouraged to open thread after thread after thread to do so.

TB doesn't belong here. He clearly has nothing useful whatsoever to contribute.

George's record stands on its own, and he has nothing whatsoever to apologize for.

My apologies for wading in on this, but I think perhaps in this case our moderators have shown that they may still be a bit green themselves - but not in a bad way.

Mon, 2011-05-09 09:51

#41

NDPP

NDP Takes A Hawkish Turn - by Kevin Libin

http://www.nationalpost.com/todays-paper/takes+hawkish+turn/4748678/stor...

"There are those in the antiwar left who accuse the NDP of choosing 'guns over butter' because Mr Layton has been undisguised in his panders to the pro-military zeitgeist.

You don't have to dwell on the fringes to recognize Mr. Layton's election promise to 'maintain the current planned levels of Defence spending commitments' - roughly $21 billion annually - as an affirmation of a muscular military...

That can alienate the most radical, peacenik rump of the NDP base. But having so far won such political success while doing precisely that, its hard to see why Mr. Layton should care."

Let them go to no difference party heaven where they're obviously heading anyway and out of the left where they've no business being anyway.

Mon, 2011-05-09 10:09

#42

Uncle John

As the Political Middle seems to be the Holy Grail Fat Part Of A Bell Curve, how many Middle Voters are you going to gain for each Leftist Socialist person you lose?

Mon, 2011-05-09 10:12

#43

Slumberjack

Just enough to make it all worthwhile. In some quarters, the happy dance still hasn't subsided.

Mon, 2011-05-09 10:21

#44

Freedom 55

Lard Tunderin Jeezus wrote:

TB doesn't belong here. He clearly has nothing useful whatsoever to contribute.

Here's a suggestion: start your own messageboard if you want to be the Decider on who does or doesn't belong. Your opinion, which may be "clear" to you, is certainly not shared by everyone. If you've got a problem with Tobold Rollo, ignore him.

Mon, 2011-05-09 10:26

#45

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Good people ignoring dishonesty just got us a Harper majority, so fuck that.

Mon, 2011-05-09 10:55

#46

NDPP

but what about the current suspension policy?

Mon, 2011-05-09 10:58

#47

lombar

"Good people ignoring dishonesty just got us a Harper majority, so fuck that."

Funny, I thought it was the dysfunctional FPTP system.

Mon, 2011-05-09 11:31

#48

Catchfire

NDPP, please take your revolutionary stirrings to a rabble reaction thread. And for others who object to GV's suspension, I urge you to do the same. I've registered your concern, and have made the decision I thought was the right one. But leave this thread to talk of voting and non-voting.

Mon, 2011-05-09 13:15

#49

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Slumberjack wrote:

Northern Shoveler wrote:
The reason why young people ignore both unions and politicians is neither are offering them very much. I said 15 years ago when the two tiered contracts started appearing that the labour movement had lost. Solidarity is not having a two tiered system were some people have been grandfathered into a middle class income and benefit package and the young people behind them are worse off than at non union stores.

Most of the youth in this country aren't offered anything in the way of a calling into the ranks of unionized labour. For them second tier contracts within a labour movement would represent a vast improvement over the drudgery of big box retail, fast food, call centers, and being skimmed by parasitic employment agencies.

Actually my point was that this is not the reality. I was referring to the difference in union and non-union jobs in the service industries our youth toil in, not INCO where the brave workers there were recently forced to agree to a two tiered pension fund. Local 6500 was starved into compliance while the union bureaucracy shook their heads and bemoaned such a state of affairs. The CLC petitioned Harper.

The retail industry union jobs have less benefits than many of the non-union jobs. If you work for Home Depot you have a better job than working at Price Smart. If your in a dead end job at Price Smart you get to pay union dues and pay into a pension fund. The only problem is the vesting is now 6 or 8 years. If you don't vest you have only funded some boomers pension.

I have watched my son and his friends work in that sector for the last 5 years and I believe that unions are irrelevant to most young people because their first experience with them is in the retail sector. The union movement sat on its hands when the UFCW was forced into two tiered contracts almost two decades ago. Unions are more interested in their members short term bargaining objectives than cross union solidarity. Unfortunately over the last 15 years the main objective of the unions has been to concede as few things as possible at the bargaining table.

In BC the HEU stood up by themselves and lost. The BC Liberals ripped up a signed collective agreement and still they stood alone. The Ferry Workers took on the government at the bargaining table and they like the HEU lost because they stood alone. The union bureaucrats in the BC Fed offered the tiny Ferry Workers LOANS when it was approached for monetary support for a legal defence fund to go toe to toe with a Campbell government engaged in dismantling our public sector. Their long term strategy was to wait until the next election and get the NDP back in power. That was 8 years ago now and in the meantime the privatization and contracting out in our health care has continued.

Mon, 2011-05-09 15:42

#50

epaulo13

..i believe this discussion to be incredibly important no matter who Tobold Rollo is. ever since the early 70‘s i have been involved in unions and the non vanguard left. the issues back then were basically the same as the are today. the difference today is that the destruction of the earth has intensified.

..many discussions back then revolved around ndp and mass movements. since then enormous resources, time and energy has gone into the ndp while in comparison little has been done to build movements to broaden the decision making base. this while most on the left in general acknowledge the need to build movements. this in the face of umpteen demands by rank and file that this happen not only to resist attack but to create a different way of life.

..i am coming to believe that in the economic pyramid scheme we live under many who play leadership roles on the left, find that they are doing ok..considering. and there is no need to change the system or seriously address the contradictions withing the ndp and unions. i suspect that this left leadership in the west will need to be dragged kicking and screaming into a different world by events taking place elsewhere. because today i see lessons have not been learned. the priority is backwards. it’s the dog that needs needs to wag the tail.

Mon, 2011-05-09 16:45

#51

Freedom 55

I couldn't agree more, epaulo13. And I hope that isn't interpreted as anti-union. I have worked with many amazing allies in the trade union movement over the years, and joined many a picket-line in solidarity with striking and locked-out workers. But when you're living in poverty, and trying to organize some of the poorest and most marginalized people in your community; and then you hear about things like "car wash allowances" being negotiated into the contracts of staff unions, you can't help but wonder if you're really all part of the same struggle.

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