Liberals look to overturn results in Berthier-Maskinongé - Continue

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Sun, 2011-05-08 00:40

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Liberals look to overturn results in Berthier-Maskinongé - Continue

So, this continues. At the Free Press, she is still taking shots over not living in the riding, and for not having visited the riding.

I have to admit, I wish she would get out to the riding and start establishing herself. I guess the National NDP have some kind of plan for her, but first appearances can be hard to shake.

I have no dount she will work hard for her riding and win respect. I also am sure she is going to do well, and I bet she will surprise a lot of people. But this is hard to take. On the Free Press No one will answer my question about my MP, who ran against Pat Martin, even though my MP didn't live in the riding. When you ask them to explain themselves, they refuse to do so. It is infuriating. I can tell you that I am probably the only New Dem posting there. In Winnipeg, the New Dems tend to stay away from the media. It is a waste of time, and you have to take a ton of abuse and insults.

Anyone have any updates about our new MP? I am still very excited for her, but anxious to see her start to make her mark.

Sun, 2011-05-08 11:56

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Well, now I have seen everything. The Tories, through their supporters just brought up Erin Larson, the U of W valedictorian who spoke out against giving that monster Vic Toews an honourary degree at the U of W grad ceremonies. The commentary went on to say that the NDP is going to embarass itself in the house and that Jack Layton is going to rue the day these candidates such as Ruth, were elected.

I hate those guys!

Sun, 2011-05-08 13:00

edmundoconnor

As opposed to the Tory candidate (now MP) who actively ran away when confronted with a member of the media with a camera, and attended no all candidates' debates? Pffft.

Sun, 2011-05-08 14:03

Stockholm

Much as I don't want to add any fuel to the fire about Ruth-Ellen Brousseau - and I get the sense that the media is already starting to sense that they've pushed this story too far - and more and more commentary and columns about her are now quite sympathetic - I can't help but this - WOULDN'T THIS BE A GREAT IDEA FOR A NEW CBC SITCOM! In the same way that Little Mosque on the Prairie was a clever show exploring stereotypes and interaction between Muslims and others in a small Canadian town - Imagine for a moment a weekly intelligently written sitcom about a young English-apeaking women who puts her name on the ballot just to be a sacrifical lamb in a 99% francophone riding in Quebec - and shocks everyone by getting elected. There could be all kinds of neat vignettes about her interacting with all the local yokels and notables in Bethier-Maskinonge and the whole thing could become a metaphor for how English and French-speakers interact with one another in so many settings in Canada!

There would be humour to be sure - but in the end it would probably be a sympathetic portrayal of someone doing their best in unforeseen circumstances and rising to the challenge with many amusing bumps on the road.

Sun, 2011-05-08 14:04

adma

Almost like a "Legally Blonde" plot/theme scenario. (I'm just stating. Don't read too much into it.)

Sun, 2011-05-08 14:04

edmundoconnor

Paul Gross as the PM? Eastwick shows he does a nice line in villainy …

Sun, 2011-05-08 14:11

writer

http://www.cbc.ca/backbencher/

Sun, 2011-05-08 18:23

Vansterdam Kid

Ruth Ellen Brosseau s'adresse à ses électeurs... dans un message enregistré.

I think this was a reasonably good message. The fact that she has experience in the service industry, which is a huge sector of our economy where most working and middle class younger to middle aged people have had to spend at least some time, helps underline the fact that if anything she at least understands the concept of service. I think the fact that the house of commons has been filled with rich middle aged to old people, who have either never had a service industry job, or haven't had one in years, has been part of the problem with politics.

Sun, 2011-05-08 18:33

Unionist

Stockholm wrote:

Imagine for a moment a weekly intelligently written sitcom about a young English-apeaking women who puts her name on the ballot just to be a sacrifical lamb in a 99% francophone riding in Quebec - and shocks everyone by getting elected. There could be all kinds of neat vignettes about her interacting with all the local yokels [...]

[...] and rising to the challenge with many amusing bumps on the road.

Stock, if you were to star as the sacrificial lamb and local yokel, I'd watch it just see how many bumps you got on the road! Deal?

Sun, 2011-05-08 23:41

#10

adma

In case anyone's interested, here's the combined 2004-06-08-11 vote totals...

BERTHIER-MASKINONGE

BQ 97236 (45.40)

Con 42475 (19.83)

Lib 34898 (16.29)

NDP 33060 (15.44)

GP 6126 (2.86)

Rhi 373 (.17)

Total 214168

Mon, 2011-05-09 00:30

#11

Policywonk

adma wrote:

In case anyone's interested, here's the combined 2004-06-08-11 vote totals...

BERTHIER-MASKINONGE

BQ 97236 (45.40)

Con 42475 (19.83)

Lib 34898 (16.29)

NDP 33060 (15.44)

GP 6126 (2.86)

Rhi 373 (.17)

Total 214168

Obviously skewed by 2011.

Mon, 2011-05-09 07:40

#12

adma

Policywonk wrote:
Obviously skewed by 2011.

I know; and skewed by other factors before that (2006's Tory surge, et al). Just for academic purposes, colliding all those tallies together, regardless of individual electoral dynamics...

Mon, 2011-05-09 12:33

#13

Lou Arab

Turns out Denis Coderre didn't do such a great job on his own paperworkwith Elections Canada.

Mon, 2011-05-09 12:40

#14

edmundoconnor

Couldn't have happened to a nicer fellow. The phrase, "hoist by your own petard", comes to mind.

Mon, 2011-05-09 13:14

#15

Policywonk

So when will the MSM be covering this?

Mon, 2011-05-09 13:45

#16

Malcolm

They won't.

Mon, 2011-05-09 13:53

#17

remind

policywonk I would say never.....

But just keep printing Brosseau and Coderre nomination papers altogether in this link and anyone googling their names will get this hit first.

perhaps they will be shamed into reporting it...

Mon, 2011-05-09 14:45

#18

Policywonk

Malcolm wrote:

They won't.

It was a rhetorical question. I don't expect them to, or to do a general story on screwups in the nomination procedure.

Mon, 2011-05-09 14:55

#19

jfb

or people who live in glass houses should never throw stones!

Mon, 2011-05-09 14:59

#20

SRB

Policywonk wrote:

So when will the MSM be covering this?

If the mainstream media doesn't, members of the NDP (especially Quebec members) should definitely point this ironic situation out if they are asked again about irregularities with Brousseau's nomination papers.

Personally, I think this is hilarious. Even if no one mentions it again (and they should, if they love irony), I'm glad that Anthony from Fact Checker blogged about it and posted photographs of the relevant pages.

Mon, 2011-05-09 15:45

#21

Malcolm

New Democrat commentators - both those of us who comment in the discussion section of media sites and the party panel "representatives" on shows like Power PLay should have this in their pocket every time any Liberal mentions the "irregularities" in Berthier - Maskinongé.

(Observation 1 - I put "representatives" in quotation marks because, on most political panels, the partisans do not formally represent their parties.)

(Observation 2 - I find it vaguely surreal that I no longer have to double check how to spell "Maskinongé.")

Mon, 2011-05-09 16:08

#22

Unionist

Unfortunately, defeated incumbent Bloc MP Guy André has [url=http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites/elections-federales/201105/09/01-43... the bandwagon[/url] in challenging Brosseau's nomination:

Quote:

M. André soutient que 12 des 127 signataires ne résident pas dans la circonscription de Berthier-Maskinongé. «Sur les 99 adresses que nous pouvions définir, nous avons fait 50 appels: onze personnes nous ont dit n'avoir jamais signé le document et une dizaine ne s'en souviennent pas», a-t-il dit. Cinq électeurs ont accepté de signer un affidavit attestant qu'ils n'ont pas signé le document.

Anyway, what do I know for sure? Maybe Brosseau's nomination papers were fatally flawed - maybe even some fraud involved - I sure hope not. What I know for sure is that the old established order is furiously sandbagging against this tide of change, and we need to let the flood pour through. Or some such metaphor.

Mon, 2011-05-09 16:27

#23

SRB

Unionist wrote:

Unfortunately, defeated incumbent Bloc MP Guy André has [url=http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites/elections-federales/201105/09/01-43... the bandwagon[/url] in challenging Brosseau's nomination:

Quote:

M. André soutient que 12 des 127 signataires ne résident pas dans la circonscription de Berthier-Maskinongé. «Sur les 99 adresses que nous pouvions définir, nous avons fait 50 appels: onze personnes nous ont dit n'avoir jamais signé le document et une dizaine ne s'en souviennent pas», a-t-il dit. Cinq électeurs ont accepté de signer un affidavit attestant qu'ils n'ont pas signé le document.

Anyway, what do I know for sure? Maybe Brosseau's nomination papers were fatally flawed - maybe even some fraud involved - I sure hope not. What I know for sure is that the old established order is furiously sandbagging against this tide of change, and we need to let the flood pour through. Or some such metaphor.

I didn't read the article, but does this mean there is going to be a lawsuit to overturn the result? Has such a thing ever happened before?

Mon, 2011-05-09 17:06

#24

Stockholm

I've heard of lawsuits to overturn results and force a byelection - but it has ALWAYS been in the context of an extremely close election with multiple recounts and disputes over rejected ballots and the possibility that some people might have voted illegally. I have NEVER heard of any election being overturned based on someone trying to retroactively disqualify a candidate based on their nomination paperwork

Mon, 2011-05-09 17:15

#25

Unionist

SRB wrote:

I didn't read the article, but does this mean there is going to be a lawsuit to overturn the result? Has such a thing ever happened before?

The story says he will file a complaint "on Monday" (I guess today) with the Commissioner of Canada Elections. If the Commissioner finds there's a breach of the Elections Act, he (William H. Corbett) can ask the Director of Public Prosecutions to decide whether or not to prosecute in court.

The whole process is described [url=http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=abo&dir=com/bck&document=in....

ETA: To Stockholm's point, I have no idea whether deliberately or accidentally flawed nomination papers constitute an offence under the Act (one would guess "yes", just on common sense), or still more, grounds to invalidate an election.

Mon, 2011-05-09 18:34

#26

Malcolm

I would suspect that deliberately flawed nomination papers would be an offense, while accidentally flawed papers would not be an offence. That said, there are frequently investigations of irredularities after elections. If the irregularities are serious enough, the MP ends up sitting outside of caucus for a time.

Then it gets in to the "speed limit" question. Assuming the Bloc can provide evidence that at least 29 of Brosseau's 128 signatures were invalid, would a court invalidate the election? It's rather like the Mountie (SQ / OPP) giving you a ticket for driving 101 in a 100 zone.

It would strike me that the affidavits aren't sufficient on their own, but their argument needs to be credible. The complainant the Liberals dragged up seemed awfully weak when a) he admitted the signature looked like his and b) his neighbours on either side indicated the NDP had approached them two and had been clear about what they were asking for.

Indeed, will the court even agree to look at the question, since the other parties had the opportunity to vett the NDP's signatures and didn't bother?

Mon, 2011-05-09 18:39

#27

remind

Just never undersestimate the egos of some middle age white men, I see. As it appears they just cannot get over the reality that the populace would rather have a single mother not from the riding, over them.

hell hath no fury, takes on a whole other perspective from historically how it has been used. Seems ome men just can't take the blows to their sense of privilege and entitlement. They serve as an example of just how bad it is still today for women in politics.

Funny though, that The Bloc woulld want to take another hit in the face, if a by-election is held and the blowback is even more significant against when they lose again. but given that they have no leader, I guess they are in freefall self destruct mode.

Cause they are not on a rational wave length.

Mon, 2011-05-09 18:40

#28

Ghislaine

I just still cannot comprehend the desire to challenge the results in this riding. Even if enough signatures were falsified/non-residents, etc., she won by a wide margin! The residents of this riding voted for Ruth Ellen Brosseau. Her name and party were on the ballot and she is who they chose. Fair and Square. I mean, they all just sound like sore losers! Or just so sure of themselves and what the electorate was going to do and know they feel like they need to come in and rescue the electorate from their own choice.

Mon, 2011-05-09 18:57

#29

Steve_Shutt Steve_Shutt's picture

Next election she can make a big show of signing the nomination papers - getting photos taken with all the nominators. The bigger they make this the more it will blow up in their faces next time out.

Seriously, I have never met this woman but if she has even a modicum of common sense about her and a good deal of humour and humility to boot - she is going to be just fine.

I can just see the get to know you campaign of her meeting her constituents by taking drink orders and talking politics at every bar in the riding (tips going to the local animal shelter or to support single mom's like herself). Practicing her French and getting to meet the locals.

If she is genuine, sincere and honest about her challenges to learn about her constituency she could become a folk hero.

And yes, make her re-election fundraisers Vegas-themed!

Mon, 2011-05-09 19:32

#30

edmundoconnor

This is just one big ol' Hail Mary pass from the Bloc and the Liberals (you notice that even the Tories aren't getting involved, a sure sign they're on a hiding to nothing). What makes them think they can change the results when both are facing real existential issues? Desperation? Fear?

Mon, 2011-05-09 19:33

#31

NicHull

Policywonk wrote:

So when will the MSM be covering this?

La Presse is now covering the story:

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites/quebec-canada/politique-canadienne/...

Mon, 2011-05-09 19:36

#32

edmundoconnor

Woohoo!

I twittered @DenisCoderre to ask him about the nomination papers, and here's his response:

@edmundoconnor everybody sign my original and I was there next to it. They saw me and my signature

I smell an MP who does their own tweets! I'm going to ask him about why his name isn't on the nomination papers.

I suggest everyone ask him why his nomination papers are okay, and if he's heard of throwing stones in glass houses.

Mon, 2011-05-09 19:51

#33

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

I can't see how this helps the Libs. It seems to me that people alway have long memories about things like this. Combine old white men with a sense of entitlement, with a innocent young female newcomer to politics, and I can't think the outcome is going to be good for the old white guys. Plus, I get the impression that Quebecors don't like being treated like they are stupid, and that generally speaking, they remember things like this.

I can't for the life of me understand how the Libs aren't able to see the big picture on this. I would bet this is really going to only make things worse for them. Is there anyone who posts here who can tell me if I am off on this? I don't pretend to really know much about Quebec's political culture, but I am inclined to think this is a really bad idea!

Mon, 2011-05-09 20:02

#34

edmundoconnor

Is it me, or does Coderre sounds more than a tad defensive/rattled in that tweet?

Mon, 2011-05-09 20:05

#35

vermonster

Arthur Cramer wrote:

I can't see how this helps the Libs....I can't for the life of me understand how the Libs aren't able to see the big picture on this. I would bet this is really going to only make things worse for them....

This isn't about a well thought-out strategic move on their part, this is simply them lashing out in anger and frustration.

They are incredibly hurt and frustrated at ending up with 18% of the votes and seeing their entitlement as the "natural governing party" flushed away. In their anger, they are simply taking pot-shots at the NDP, and this is the only thing coming out of the election that even suggests a vulnerability.

Mon, 2011-05-09 20:14

#36

edmundoconnor

If the Coderre story has legs (and the Cyber Presse article suggests its does), expect the Liberals to drop this in a hurry. One thing to lash out at your enemies, quite another to have the attack blow up in your face.

Mon, 2011-05-09 20:45

#37

Krago

In high school, Denis Coderre was voted 'most likely to receive an envelope stuffed with cash'.

Mon, 2011-05-09 20:48

#38

Unionist

edmundoconnor wrote:

This is just one big ol' Hail Mary pass from the Bloc and the Liberals (you notice that even the Tories aren't getting involved, a sure sign they're on a hiding to nothing).

Just for historical accuracy, the Conservative candidate was actually [url=http://www.cyberpresse.ca/le-nouvelliste/actualites/201105/04/01-4396168... first to raise allegations of impropriety[/url], and called for a byelection as early as May 4. I don't know whether she has or will follow through with a complaint, but she definitely triggered the hue and cry.

Mon, 2011-05-09 20:55

#39

Life, the unive...

edmundoconnor wrote:

Woohoo!

I twittered @DenisCoderre to ask him about the nomination papers, and here's his response:

@edmundoconnor everybody sign my original and I was there next to it. They saw me and my signature

I smell an MP who does their own tweets! I'm going to ask him about why his name isn't on the nomination papers.

I suggest everyone ask him why his nomination papers are okay, and if he's heard of throwing stones in glass houses.

That could be true because candidates themselves are not allowed to witness their own nomination papers. It is a weird little rule that I once ran afoul of many years ago. So he might have been there, or not. It would be hard to prove- and seems a bit unlikely unless it was done at an event. Far more likley that they collected signatures in the regular way since more than one person witnessed them.

Mon, 2011-05-09 22:25

#40

Lachine Scot

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Quebecors

Heh, probably not a typo to make around too many Quebecers on this board

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebecor

Mon, 2011-05-09 23:27

#41

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

@Lachine Scot:

Oh, I am so sorry! As soon as you pointed that out it was oh, oh. I am very sorry for that mistake and I sincerely apologize. That is some error.

My apologies to anyone I may have inadvertently insulted. I am so very sorry!

Tue, 2011-05-10 01:01

#42

Lachine Scot

Haha, I'm sure no one was offended by it. I just thought I'd point it out

Tue, 2011-05-10 07:52

#43

adma

http://ruthellenbrosseau.ndp.ca/

Finally, a new picture.

Tue, 2011-05-10 08:13

#44

writer

According to an update on factchecker, which Lou Arab linked to above:

Quote:

UPDATE:

You got to give Mr. Coderre credit for being quick in responding.

He told me that unlike the candidate in Berthier, his nomination papers were signed in his presence at his nomination meeting, therefore they knew who they were supporting. He also noted that he brought the documents to the returning officer himself in the presence of his official agent. I would like to add that Ms.Brosseau did not bring the documents to her local returning office as she has stated she still has not been to the riding.

Tue, 2011-05-10 08:15

#45

Caissa

The attack on Ms. Brosseau has been sexist, classist, ageist and undemocratic. Of course the MSM won't report those aspects of the story.

Tue, 2011-05-10 14:15

#46

robbie_dee

[url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/new-democrat-doesnt-have-di... and Mail: New Democrat doesn’t have diploma, despite inclusion in biography[/url]

Quote:
An official at a Kingston college says that NDP MP Ruth Ellen Brosseau is not a graduate from the school, despite saying on her party biography that she has a diploma from the institution. For a week now, after her May 2 surprise election as the MP for Berthier-Maskinongé, Ms. Brosseau has kept a low profile in the face of complaints that she speaks little French and vacationed in Las Vegas rather than campaigning in her Quebec constituency. In addition, her political rivals alleged there were bogus signatures in her nomination papers. On the NDP’s website, Ms. Brosseau’s biography says that she is an assistant pub manager and a community activist with an interest in animal welfare. “Ruth has a diploma in Advertising and Integrated Marketing Communications from St. Lawrence College in Kingston,” the biography adds. However, the Ontario school said that is not the case. “She doesn’t have that credential from St. Lawrence College. She didn’t complete her studies for that program and therefore does not have a diploma,” said Gord MacDougall, the college’s vice-president for Student and External Affairs.

Tue, 2011-05-10 14:33

#47

gyor

Good Gods when will the targeting of this girl stop. This has gone from a mildly curious and humerous story to a obscene level of cruelity. I've never seen anything so viscous and disgusting as the none stop attacks on her. I've seen politicians up on criminal charges receive better treatment. It is beyond criticsim and has become harrassment. Does anyone believe this is hurting the NDP more then it is the liberals. She has become the whipping girl of all the political frustrations of the elites. If I was a journalist I would be so ashamed of my profession now. You always think the media can't sink any lower, it just isn't possible, yet they manage to do it. The attacks are starting to seem like personal not political attacks and I hope more people in the media start saying enough is enough this is hateful and spiteful and no other MP has to deal with it to this degree.

Tue, 2011-05-10 14:48

#48

Caissa

Is this a piece of information which belongs in the public domain or is this a violation of her privacy rights?

However, the Ontario school said that is not the case. "She doesn't have that credential from St. Lawrence College. She didn't complete her studies for that program and therefore does not have a diploma," said Gord MacDougall, the college's vice-president for Student and External Affairs.

Tue, 2011-05-10 15:03

#49

Vansterdam Kid

I've always understood, as a University employee, that giving out information about students to anyone other than the student themselves is not allowed. Period. Not that it's only against University policy, but that it is a violation of privacy rights. Then again, I've never heard of that school so I'm not surprised that they're sketchy at best with regards to rules and regulations.

Tue, 2011-05-10 15:06

#50

Stockholm

One thing I've noticed is that every attack on her always seems to be totally hyperbolic and then the facts end up being not even 1% of what was initially claimed:

"She spent the whole campaign in Las Vegas"

Well no, she went there for a long weekend during the campaign...the fact is she did no campaigning in the riding - does it matter what proportion of the time she didn't spend in Berthier-Maskinonge was spent in Las Vegas or at her job in Ottawa?

"She speaks no French whatsoever"

Well no, it turns out that she did go through several years of French immersion and she probably just needs a bit of a refresher course.

"She FORGED her nomination papers."

Well no, it turns out that her nomination papers were in order and were accepted by Elections Canada. In any case she did not personally get anyone to sign anything (most candidates of all parties leave that stuff to low level minions) and the more probing there is, the more it looks like the whole nomination papers issue is just a Liberal diversionary tactic.

The latest is "She LIED on her RESUME"

Well no, first of all a one paragraph bio is not a "resume" and apparently she never claimed to have a diploma - it was a mistake by someone in the party who was assembling bios for the candidates. Perhaps the Liberals will now start knocking on dorrs in the riding to see how many people will sign an affidavit that the ONLY reason they voted for her was that they were under the false impression that she had a DIPLOMA from an obscure community college in Ontario - and that they NEVER would have voted for her if they didn't think she had completed the program.

Her bio also says she's an animal lover and that she is involved in animal rescue. How long before we see a screaming headline that according to her cat - she doesn't clean the kitty litter box often enough???

The poor woman has been called a compuslive gambler, a barmaid, someone who committed electoral fraud and a liar. I can't help but wonder why this one individual is the subject of such a feeding frenzy.

Tue, 2011-05-10 15:06

#51

Caissa

As a university employee, I have always understood the same, in general. I wonder since graduation lists are published was the rationale MacDougall use for responding as he did.

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