If these uprisings were happening in for an example, Bavaria, would activists here be saying that the Bavarians are being steered by intelligence agencies outside their borders, or would we simply be happy for those people living in northern Germany and congratulate them on a job well done?
The USA Manufactured the Arab Spring
Sun, 2011-06-19 21:11
#52
Sun, 2011-06-19 21:43
#53
Apparently junior toadies to the two old line colonial administrative parties want to attack the NDP at every turn for not being left enough.
But when it comes to actual left wing global politics and cold war baloney, they turn around and apologize all over the place for team gladio with delirious drivel about the CIA and US Military being run by Elmer Fudd and Barney Fife clones and who just so happen to be awarded black budgets every year that run in the tens of billions of dollars to, apparently, carry our Elmer Fudd black ops that never amount to anything. Because as we know, Elmer Fudd is this innocent character who makes a lot of mistakes but never cashes in on them. Why? Because they are legit Elmer Fudd clones who just wanna do some private enterprising along the way without intentionally murdering or, pulling a Gleiwitz incident(apparently hawks never learned anything from their friends during or after the war, the NAZIS) torturing anybody along the way. Too funny. A real knee-slapper.
babble it's, a social forum for those hostile to the new official opposition party and mildly anti-imperialists. A public for-comments watering hole where closet lunatic right wing fringeists congregate.
And God bless Eisenhimey and JF Dulles, because how else would we refer to "The Middle East" using the imperialists' own terms?
Sun, 2011-06-19 21:56
#54
Don't mind them, NDPP. They don't appreciate us bashing their cold and colder war heroes very much at all. You can sense the bad vibes. For some of us there is no such thing as fascism. It's just normal every day goings on as far as they are concerned.
God bless the CIA and Gladio Gangsters Inc.
And down with the NDP!!
Is it just me or is it very Liberal/Tory in this thread?
Hostility watch continues...
Sun, 2011-06-19 22:10
#55
re: #51 CMOT
Western interest, involvement and influence should be assumed in any and every movement of any consequence anywhere, including Bavaria. Not very long ago, some here were still insisting up and down that Spring had spontaneously come to Libya too. My point is that these things are frequently complex mixtures and competing interests of which CIA involvement or elite planning is not necessarily 'conspiracy theory' 'half baked' or 'racist'.
Sun, 2011-06-19 22:11
#56
I'm gome, I can't take it anymore.
Sun, 2011-06-19 22:15
#57
Catchfire
NDPP, the OP is a paradigmatic example of conspiracy theory: supernatural intent; paper-thin evidence; broad, totalitarian consequences and the usual appeal to critical thinking etc against all common sense and proof. Thus, it is easy to conclude that it is indeed racist, imperialist and half baked. Of course, the incompetent American empire has its hands in all sorts of pots worldwide, but that is not the contention of the OP, the main force of which is classic orientalist myths and tropes.
Sun, 2011-06-19 22:24
#58
@ Fidelio
I'm delighted that the NDP is getting out of the 'left' business. They'll go farther this way, you'll see
Sun, 2011-06-19 23:04
#59
Catch could you toss me your e mail adress via pm.
Sun, 2011-06-19 23:09
#60
Whoa, what the...when I first saw this thread title I thought it was either a) referring to the impetus for the uprisings (i.e. Western hegemony) or b) was satirical. Instead, it is offering some seedy, half-baked "evidence" meant to undercut the pan-Arab popular movement. "Thinking critically" doesn't mean ignoring the incredible evidence which shows an entire group of people refusing to accept the yokes of their dictators. Posts like the OP are based on racist, orientalist assumptions, and have no place on babble. Notaradical, keep your conspiracy theories to yourself in the future, thanks.
OTPOR and CANVAS are probably funded by the US Government according to independent investigative journalist William Engdahl. And the video shows people in Ukraine acknowledging Gene Sharp's step by step book on regime change. The orange revolutionaries used Sharp's methods to help reign in the corrupt Yushenko government friendly to the west.
OTPOR's Popovic says they were behind the Rose revolution in Georgia that has given them the corrupt and militant Sakashvilli government that attacked civilians in S. Ossetia without provocation.
They were behind the tulip revolution in Khyrgyzstan, and a denim revolution in Belarus.
OTPOR and CANVAS are surely funded by the U.S. Government. They've pulled this crap in Venezuela and Cuba before without using OTPOR's formulaic regime change strategy.
Is babble now a watering hole for closet right wingers and advocates for globalization of neoliberal economic fundamentalism?
Mon, 2011-06-20 00:06
#61
NDPP, the OP is a paradigmatic example of conspiracy theory: supernatural intent; paper-thin evidence; broad, totalitarian consequences and the usual appeal to critical thinking etc against all common sense and proof. Thus, it is easy to conclude that it is indeed racist, imperialist and half baked. Of course, the incompetent American empire has its hands in all sorts of pots worldwide, but that is not the contention of the OP, the main force of which is classic orientalist myths and tropes.
The CIA is a long time racist, imperialist tool of the west. You can't get any more racist than the NAZI sympathizing CIA once headed by the likes of William Colby, Allen Dulles, and George H.W. Bush.
Why should we believe that secretive intel agency is any more democratically minded today? Regime change and torture and political assassinations are their specialties since 1947. Why should we trust them more than U.S. dissident William Engdahl and his sources for this story?
Mon, 2011-06-20 00:32
#62
I'm thankful for the few forum members in this thread who have voiced reason and not, as I now reiterate for the umpteenth time, simply projected their well-wishing onto the events in North Africa/Middle East. I am truly, truly appreciative.
@Catchfire
I didn't realize moderators were given free reign to insult regular Babblers. I have shown the utmost civility amidst overt hostility, and have not once insulted anyone's intelligence. I have not disseminated "racist, orientalist" opinions. You may want to double-check your use of the word "orientalist". I don't think it jives. I am only guilty of throwing a fork into the gears of the massive machine that is status quo. I do not discredit the Arab people. I recognize that they carried out an unpredented show of solidarity (revolution, if you will). I question the underpinnings of its creation and its probable manipulation from the shadows. To the contrary, I believe some participants in this conversation are ignoring the "incredible evidence" that is free for the taking, should one have the audacity to partake. I fail to understand what is offensive about suggesting that there is an element of intrigue.
Through my digging, I continually redefine my perspective on this issue. I don't see this as a weakness, but I foresee others attacking the argument on this basis. I now believe that "liberal" American think tanks played a major role in the manipulations, presumably in pursuit of financial gain, which I will get into below. Constant is my belief that there were forces that sought to subvert the potential energy of a popular uprising, right from the very onset (or sooner) of the revolutions.
I encourage everyone who challenges the official record not to solely rely on historical parallels, as I was wont to do. They may contain points of relevance but they are usually dismissed regardless of their viability.
- - - - -
An article in the New York Times links the International Center on Nonviolent Conflict to the training of the revolutionary leaders in the April 6 movement.
When Egypt's April 6 Youth Movement was struggling to recover from a failed effort in 2005, its leaders tossed around "crazy ideas" about bringing down the government, said Ahmed Maher, a leading strategist. They stumbled on Mr. Sharp while examining the Serbian movement Otpor, which he had influenced....
When the nonpartisan International Center on Nonviolent Conflict, which trains democracy activists, slipped into Cairo several years ago to conduct a workshop, among the papers it distributed was Mr. Sharp's "198 Methods of Nonviolent Action,"... Dalia Ziada, an Egyptian blogger and activist who attended the workshop and later organized similar sessions on her own, said trainees were active in both the Tunisia and Egypt revolts.
Gene Sharp had a protegee, Peter Ackerman, who became a multi-millionaire and went on to found the ICNC. From an article in the Washington Post:
Mr. Ackerman cut the funding of the Albert Einstein Institution and turned to the International Center on Nonviolent Conflict, or ICNC, which he founded in Washington, D.C. in 2002.
...
The Otpor alumni now run the Belgrade-based Center for Applied Nonviolent Action and Strategies, or Canvas, which is funded by Mr. Ackerman's ICNC. Canvas has trained activists from Venezuela, Nigeria and the Palestinian territories, among many others.
SourceWatch, a corporate watchdog wiki, has this to say about the ICNC:
The International Center on Nonviolent Conflict (ICNC) has been accused by critics of acting in the service of imperialism, and was founded by Council on Foreign Relations board member, Peter Ackerman.
And more from the Wikipedia page:
ICNC involvement in seminars and workshops involving activists in human rights, pro-democracy and social justice campaigns overseas have led to charges from some governments of foreign intervention, though ICNC policy prohibits its presenters from giving specific advice regarding any particular struggle.
Green Left, an independent Australian news source, continues:
...it is clear that Sharp has no problems of accepting support from the US military. Even Sharp's major theoretical contribution to non-violent scholarship - his trilogy, The Politics of Nonviolent Action (1972) - was written with the indirect support of the military, as he openly obtained funding from Professor Thomas C. Schellings grants. Grants that in turn were obtained from the Advanced Research Projects Agency of the US Department of Defense, and from the Ford Foundation (whose work was intimately linked with that of the CIA). (Incidentally this information was openly revealed in the acknowledgements of Sharp's book.)
...
the ICNC's apparently progressive politics actually serves to insulate many of its anti-democratic funders from serious criticism, which helps prevent progressive activists from restricting the cynical abuse of civil disobedience by imperial interests.
Another article by the same author exposes the many links between the ICNC and the American neoconservative establishment:
...the ICNC's president, Jack DuVall, and the former head of the CIA, James Woolsey, briefly concurrently served on the board of directors of the Arlington Institute...it was significant that someone at the Arlington Institute saw fit to have both of them on their board of directors at the same time. Moreover given the ICNC's fleeting acquaintance with the CIA at the Arlington Institute, it is intriguing to observe that in late 2005 the ICNC's founding chair, Peter Ackerman, became chair of the neo-conservative Freedom House, replacing none other than Woolsey (who had served in that same position since 2003).
...three of ICNC's six "principals of non-violence were trained within the heart of the military-industrial complex. "ICNC vice-chair Berel Rodal was formerly director-general of the policy secretariat in Canada's Department of National Defence; ICNC manager of educational initiatives Dr Maria J. Stephan, has worked 'at the U.S. Department of Defense and with the international staff at NATO Headquarters in Brussels'; and Shaazka Beyerle (former vice-president turned senior advisor of ICNC) is a founding vice-president of the European Institute (another group that is well linked to the 'democracy' establishment)."
...Peter Ackerman is chair of the neo-conservative Freedom House
...in 2005 it paid the neo-conservative Freedom House to organise a series of educational seminars.
In response to claims that the ICNC trained Egyptian activists, Jack Duvall, president of the institution, had this to say:
We provided video and print materials for a seminar convened by another organization in Egypt in 2006 - as we do for dozens of conferences and seminars every year all over the world
...
our direct educational help to Egyptians was through a week-long seminar on nonviolent action hosted by the Ibn Khaldun Centre in Cairo in 2007 ...welcoming eight Egyptians involved in education and democratic activism to participate in three of our annual Fletcher Summer Institutes for the Advanced Study of Nonviolent Conflict at Tufts University, in ensuing years.
That is as close an admission of complicity as it gets in diplomatic parlance. Note that they invite participants to their program at the Fletcher School, a widely known CIA training apparatus.
In this video from Al Jazeera, Mohammed Adel, a key organizer of the Egyptian uprising, talks of his relationship to Otpor, which is directly supported by CANVAS and ICNC, both of which I outlined in an earlier post:
Srdja Popovic was leader of that [Serbian] revolution. He shared his firsthand experience with April 6 [Movement].
...
Mohamed Adel came back from Serbia with videos and teaching aids; Popovich in his own voice explaing tactics.
- - - - -
I believe the evidence is there to illustrate a link between the Egyptian revolutionary movement and OTPOR/CANVAS/ICNC. That the revolutionaries were unwitting parties is open to debate. I believe they were. There is also considerable debate on the intentions of the ICNC, which, if one approaches this with any degree of skepticism, inevitably leads to a reconsideration of the official record of the Egyptian uprising (and possibly the entire Arab Spring).
Mon, 2011-06-20 00:42
#63
I see nothing in this thread that is beyond the ability of Babblers to handle themselves - agree or disagree. Neither the contention that 'there are forces that seek to blunt the effects of the people's struggles' nor a perusal of the supporting materials, which include Louis Proyect, Wikileaks cables from Cairo to Washington, Pepe Escobar and Hugo Chavez, would warrant posters being maligned as half-baked racists or conspiracy theorists and told to keep their 'conspiracy theories' to themselves. The intervention was heavyhanded, insulting and obviously chilling of any further discussion. Please take more care next time.
Mon, 2011-06-20 01:07
#64
Whatever political situation unfolds in Egypt it will more than likely be dirty political squabbles and unstable coalitions as Egyptians venture into the dicey world of electoral democracy and dollar democracy. They will not have a modern day strong man Nasser who seized the wealth of greedy and corrupt elites and nationalised state assets in a bygone era. Not anytime soon.
What the west has planned for the Arab countries does not resemble democracy. What's planned in advance is globalization of an ideology that has caused former Soviet and Latin American countries to descend into economic chaos and political turmoil, and massive indebtedness to a massively corrupt western banking system run by a financial elite. Their goal is democracy prevention. Yes they are very much involved in this "Arab Spring". They knew the writing was on the wall for their political stooges and so are now acting to ensure a smooth transition to corruption by inserting into any new governments their own neoliberal stooges by dollar democracy and by hook and crook anyway they know how. Egyptians and Tunisians and Yemenis should have been protesting their local U.S. embassies at the same time they were protesting against the corrupt stooges.
Mon, 2011-06-20 01:25
#65
This thread is an insult to the memory of Mohamed Bouazizi and the thousands of other Arabs who martyred themselves to free their people.
Mon, 2011-06-20 01:39
#66
Yes, because it's obvious that we're saying Arabian people would not rebel like this without prompting from the CIA. Shame on us. And how racist of us to suggest that an imperialist tool of the U.S. Military dictatorship since 1947 would stoop so low as to try to control the outcomes of these peoples rebellions against capitalist globalization by simply changing the channel to western style electoral democracy aka installing more corrupt stooges by way of dollar democracy. How dare we.
Mon, 2011-06-20 01:43
#67
This thread is an insult to the memory of Mohamed Bouazizi and the thousands of other Arabs who martyred themselves to free their people.
I would discourage you from pandering to peoples' emotions. I haven't denied the untold suffering experienced by the revolutionaries. In fact I haven't denied much at all of the events as they transpired.
It is becoming a recurring theme in this discussion for detractors to inject histrionics to fan the flames. I was hesitant to point this out at first but this is getting ridiculous.
Mon, 2011-06-20 01:49
#68
We should consider starting an Imperialism 101 thread for people born after 1989 or so.
And for those who were born previously and still don't understand what's going on, well, what else can we do? They are hard cases.
Mon, 2011-06-20 01:52
#69
We should consider starting an Imperialism 101 thread for people born after 1989 or so.
And for those who were born previously and still don't understand what's going on, well, what else can we do? They are hard cases.
I was born 2 years before the Wall fell. Until 4 or 5 months ago, I wasn't even 100% up to speed on the mechanics of our parliamentary system. I credit this website and a host of other progressive places for my education.
Mon, 2011-06-20 01:55
#70
re: #64
Only if your grotesque distortion of it upthread were true that it intends
"the argument that the turbanned horde cannot conceive of such western ideas as freedom from despotism without the friendly guidance of gentle whitefolk."
I certainly don't subscribe to such views, nor do I see that advanced here.
Mon, 2011-06-20 02:19
#71
Otpor and Canvas etc is the new gladio in action. The clenched fist symbol was used in all the CIA's colour revolutions.
Engdahl: US-Israel rift deepest ever as Arab Spring spreads chaos YouTube May 21
This destabilization effort was planned since 2002-03. It's being steered by Washington and London and designed to expand the imperialists' "Middle East" borders in the direction of China and Russia and creating a larger neoliberalized and globalized free market zone for the corporatocracy and mainly banksters to plunder and extract oil and other mineral wealth and enslave whole nations in debt servitude to a deeply corrupt western financial system. They want to use economic warfare against China and Russia and Asian countries in general.
Same old same-old warmed over cold war leftovers.
Mon, 2011-06-20 04:24
#72
[url=http://theintelhub.com/2011/02/19/cia-coup-college/][color=blue]CIA Coup-College[/color][/url]
First noted by geopolitical analyst and historian Dr. Webster Tarpley, some suspicious similarities could be seen between the Egyptian unrest and another, known US-backed uprising in Serbia. Serbia's Otpor, or the "resistance," was funded to the tune of millions by the US National Endowment for Democracy.Its signature clenched fist logo adorned flags, signboards, and t-shirts carried by the US State Department-laid Astro Turf until the ousting of Slobodan Milošević in 2000.
The exact same logo would turn up 11 years later across the Mediterranean Sea in the streets of Cairo, ...
And for a different perspective see this video.
Mon, 2011-06-20 06:26
#73
This thread is an insult to the memory of Mohamed Bouazizi and the thousands of other Arabs who martyred themselves to free their people.
Et Tu al-Q? This is a tad overwrought in my estimation, even in comparison with the 'shove thy conspiracy theory up thine rectum' intervention upthread.
Mon, 2011-06-20 06:37
#74
I believe there's far more circumstantial tidbits of substantiation here and there for western meddling in affairs of this nature than substantiation for some of the remarks at #48. Sounds to me like this was all notaradical was trying to get at. A little more differentiation between a drive by analysis of the OP, and intent of the poster might have avoided the other unpleasantness which followed.
Mon, 2011-06-20 08:06
#75
If these uprisings were happening in for an example, Bavaria, would activists here be saying that the Bavarians are being steered by intelligence agencies outside their borders, or would we simply be happy for those people living in northern Germany and congratulate them on a job well done?
There are significant inspirational elements in any situation where people refuse to do what they're told by corporate hegemonists and their puppet henchmen. Is is too far out in left field to suggest that reactionaries never cease doing what they do best, which is to continuously react in their own interests as situations develop, where loyalty to ones flunky on the ground takes a back seat to retaining control over such impromptu affairs before events get completely carried away?
Mon, 2011-06-20 08:50
#76
I am going to make a prediction. If the Jordanian monarchy (perhaps the most pro-US regime in the Arab world) collapses because of people power, and there are huge demonstrations by average Jordanians calling for the head of their Western educated, Star Trek loving King, the CIA will be blamed by babblers for the overthrow of Jordan's dictatorship.
It would be a useful exercise to look to the assortment of intrigues behind the Jordanian protests this year, and the extent of the regime's comparative willingness to quickly ante up with a few fig leaf reforms. Certainly the US wouldn't wish instability here, just as it didn't provide them with much in the way of amusement in the Egyptian, Yemeni, or Tunisian contexts. If instability did threaten to overflow into the Jordanian streets, beyond the ability of the security forces to arrest without creating a bloodbath as the Syrians are doing, then I'd be inclined to believe in advance that the most likely wager going forward for the West would be revealed precisely as it is now, in the manner of a few mollifying tweaks to the systemic political and economic oppression, or talking head changes that might meet with the approval of the masses, or, as an entirely last ditch exercise in legitimacy, a new talking head in charge of everything, preferably a trusted representative from the army or other security services with a certain amount of fealty owed to outside interests, as in Egypt, Yemen and Tunisia. They'll never willingly allow these people to determine their own destiny just like that. There's simply too much at stake in regional resource extraction projects alone, before we'd even get to the variety of other political factors.
Mon, 2011-06-20 09:50
#77
Catchfire
I read in this thread a few back-patting exercises in convolution under the auspices of "critical thinking" and radicalism, in full opposition to any evidence. The thread title puts paid to any myth that this thread is simply "exploring" CIA links, and is instead trying to ascribe supernatural intent (a la 9/11) to some SPECTRE-like government agency by crowbarring unrelated quips into a spy narrative. That's not journalism, it's orientalist fantasy. A much more ethical and sensible position is that of 500 Apples upthread. Of course the serially incompetent CIA had its hooks in the Middle East. How wittingly? What for? In my opinion, those questions were already presumed by the OP and as a result, it leveled an extraordinary insult to the Arab people.
Mon, 2011-06-20 09:58
#78
Someone upthread called them "Arabian" people. It would be hard to come up with a better Orientalist term than that. Obviously, only the CIA is capable of pulling these Arabians away from their hookahs and out of their hareems by whispering "democracy" and "revolution" to them.
Mon, 2011-06-20 10:24
#79
Well, the CIA certainly can be mistaken for a SPECTRE-like world governmental organization. You might have just said 'lets be careful in navigating around people's legitimate aspirations and bodies laying in the street,' because just as the entire region is not monolithic with its varying contexts and impetus, there's also a huge difference between purposeful intent, misapprehension, and superficiality. Surely the intent isn't to usher people through the exits by recommending they take their racist extracts elsewhere, and just leave it at that.
Mon, 2011-06-20 10:41
#80
Someone upthread called them "Arabian" people. It would be hard to come up with a better Orientalist term than that. Obviously, only the CIA is capable of pulling these Arabians away from their hookahs and out of their hareems by whispering "democracy" and "revolution" to them.
That unfortunate description wasn't helpful, but nor is it helpful to stitch things together and stretch it out beyond all recognition in this manner so that it neatly fits around the lambasting of an otherwise thoughful poster.
Mon, 2011-06-20 11:12
#81
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
People are caught up in whether ongoing U.S. efforts at destabilization are directly responsible for the "Arab Spring", which is an interesting exercise, but nowhere near as important as what has definitely been manufactured: The western perception of the Arab Spring, through the mainstream corporate media.
Thanks to the presentation of this phenomenon as a spontaneous people's uprising against malevolent dictators, the citizens of the west passively accept military intervention by expansionist corporate empire builders.
Mon, 2011-06-20 11:14
#82
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
...or to put it more simply: it's not them, it's us. We're the most manipulated in this situation, and thus the most responsible.
Mon, 2011-06-20 12:04
#83
I read in this thread a few back-patting exercises in convolution under the auspices of "critical thinking" and radicalism, in full opposition to any evidence. The thread title puts paid to any myth that this thread is simply "exploring" CIA links, and is instead trying to ascribe supernatural intent (a la 9/11) to some SPECTRE-like government agency by crowbarring unrelated quips into a spy narrative. That's not journalism, it's orientalist fantasy. A much more ethical and sensible position is that of 500 Apples upthread. Of course the serially incompetent CIA had its hooks in the Middle East. How wittingly? What for? In my opinion, those questions were already presumed by the OP and as a result, it leveled an extraordinary insult to the Arab people.
@Catchfire
After reading the first few words of this post, I thought you were referring to your own trumpeting of previous detractors' comments. I should have known better. Guess I'll go back to watching my X-Files and taping up my Bigfoot posters. It is interesting to observe your choice of words to describe my arguments. "Supernatural", "racist", and "orientalist" are all brushstrokes used to paint me as some sort of raving loon. I want to address these insults.
Supernatural - I point to tangible connections made by established sources, agents of the Imperium they may be. Occult does not necessarily follow intrigue.
Racist - I don't entertain any ideas that there is some deficiency in the peoples of that region that somehow prevents them from aspiring to a better life and true democracy. That would be truly racist. All peoples are created equal. Period. I suppose if you want to dig, you'll eventually hit water. The way this discussion is going, I should be banned by then.
Orientalist - Edward Said defined orientalism as a "subtle and persistent Eurocentric prejudice against Arabo-Islamic peoples and their culture." As a member of a visible minority, I'm intimately attuned to those frequencies. Is it orientalist/racist to suggest that the masses have been manipulated? Do you call someone stupid for buying into a pyramid scheme?
The connection is there. Call it shoddy journalism, whatever that means. I make no pretenses - I did not write this stuff. Neither am I the first person to question the official narrative. If Al Jazeera, the Washington Post, and the New York Times aren't enough "official" sources to establish said link, then I "officially" concede. Someone will probably contend that these sources are the tools of the Imperium used to confuse and mislead. I ask then what evidence will suffice? We have the leaders of the Egyptian revolution confessing to their connections on video. Video!
I think it's time for this argument to go on the offensive. If anyone can demonstrate with considerable evidence that the April 6 Movement, with ample funding and training from ICNC/CANVAS/OTPOR, was NOT instrumental to the Egyptian revolutions, I will adopt that version.
Mon, 2011-06-20 12:12
#84
[url=http://theintelhub.com/2011/02/19/cia-coup-college/][color=blue]CIA Coup-College[/color][/url]
First noted by geopolitical analyst and historian Dr. Webster Tarpley, some suspicious similarities could be seen between the Egyptian unrest and another, known US-backed uprising in Serbia. Serbia's Otpor, or the "resistance," was funded to the tune of millions by the US National Endowment for Democracy.Its signature clenched fist logo adorned flags, signboards, and t-shirts carried by the US State Department-laid Astro Turf until the ousting of Slobodan Milošević in 2000.
The exact same logo would turn up 11 years later across the Mediterranean Sea in the streets of Cairo, ...
And for a different perspective see this video.
That was one of the first red flags I encountered, but it can be dismissed as purely circumstantial. Many organizations adopt symbols of other organizations. I found it more helpful to explore the substantive links between the Egyptian uprising and destabilizing agents. Things like training and funding, for example.
Mon, 2011-06-20 13:11
#85
So the theory is that after decades of supporting dictatorships in the Middle East, CIA has now decided to provide support to people of the region to topple them? Good. That's at least one step forward from toppling democratic governments and replacing them with dictatorships.
Mon, 2011-06-20 13:13
#86
The only thing supernatural about these "Arab" Spring threads are the usual coincidence theorists' and their apologetics for a racist and imperialist tool of U.S. Government's meddling in John Foster Dulles' "The Middle East". It's a truly breathtaking sight for a left wing social forum claiming to be anti-imperialist in purpose. It's disgraceful.
Mon, 2011-06-20 13:37
#87
So the theory is that after decades of supporting dictatorships in the Middle East, CIA has now decided to provide support to people of the region to topple them? Good. That's at least one step forward from toppling democratic governments and replacing them with dictatorships.
Yes, the coincidence theory on this one says that the American CIA and its intelligence allies in Europe only ever foment violent coups and then prop-up brutal dictators for decades afterwards. And look how well that's worked for them. Apparently the CIA and friends are too stupid and won't be attempting to install anymore dictators through corruption and bribery and supporting both the Gadaffis of this world and their political opposition at the same time.
Where else in the world have powerful elitists been buying both the governments and political "opposition" for the last several decades? Coincidence theorists do have a point here, because we know of no other country in the world where war parties numbered one and two are owned by rich people, bankers and a few thousand military contractors. It's too ridiculous to imagine that model for the corruption of Rome to be exported to the "Middle East".
I mean, that's just too weird for an agency with annual budgets in excess of what Ontario spends on health care.
Helpful hint: Since its creation in 1947, the CIA hasn't been spending all that dough on health care services for desperately poor people in JF Dulles' "Middle East".
Mon, 2011-06-20 16:05
#88
NDPP, the OP is a paradigmatic example of conspiracy theory: supernatural intent; paper-thin evidence; broad, totalitarian consequences and the usual appeal to critical thinking etc against all common sense and proof.
Well if Paul B. McCarthy of the Warshington based National Endowment for Democracy(a CIA front as are USAid, IRI and IDI) is anyone to go by, he admits now that his group funded Otpor in 1990s Serbia. Serbia and regime change are synonymous in case we've forgotten the glorious nineties when a wonderful Clinton administration and al-Qaeda were like that in Bosnia and Macedonia according to various sources including the US Republican Senate Committee. Milosevic was one of their's for a while, too, and who swallowed the neoliberal kool aid, like Qadaffi, Mubarak, Ali, Mugabe, Mandela's ANC etc did, before western banksters and their hirelings in government turned on Slobo.
So does this mean that the NED, USAid and even New York Times writers are ubernatural?
"Game Over"? Yeah rrright.
Because the US Military dictatorship has not been very transparent or accountable to the public since 1947 and in dire need of American style glasnost themselves does not mean that they are innocent of ongoing meddling in John Foster Dulles' "Middle East". I would tend to believe the opposite is true if anything. The torture is nothing new, and neither is the CIA's long-time agenda for regime change and political assassinations. And there is fairly clear evidence for ongoing meddling in "The Middle East". They tell on themselves eventually.
Mon, 2011-06-20 20:44
#89
M. Spector
So the theory is that after decades of supporting dictatorships in the Middle East, CIA has now decided to provide support to people of the region to topple them?
And your reaction is "Good".
My reaction is "On what planet?"
No credible explanation is offered as to why the CIA and the myriad other instruments of imperialism would suddenly want to have their compliant western-friendly dictatorships in the Middle East toppled like dominoes by popular revolutions. The reason why no such credible explanation has been offered is that [b]there is none[/b].
The very, very last thing the imperialists want in the Arab countries is social instability and popular uprising. Those are the things that threaten imperialism the most. This is why they have moved in quickly to control and defuse the potentially explosive prospect of a popular revolution in Libya by placing themselves and their loyal compradors at the head of the opposition forces. They are happy to have Qaddafi ousted only so long as they can be assured that those who replace him will continue to comply with the western capitalist agenda.
The CIA et al. deal in coups, assassinations, and intrigues when they want regime change - not mass popular uprisings. Mass revolutions are too unpredictable and hard to control, unless your agents are securely installed in leading positions. And because a handful of Arabs have read Gene Sharp's pamphlets, it doesn't mean that we can conclude that the whole Arab Spring was Sharp's idea.
There is clear evidence of pro-capitalist "democracy" advocates having influence with some people in some countries - like Ukraine, Serbia, and other countries that were not securely within the imperialist orbit - for the purpose of bringing them "freedom" in the form of neoliberal market economies and western capital investment. But to suggest, as the thread title does, that the Arab Spring was "manufactured" by the USA betrays a shocking disregard of the actual facts, the historical context, the geopolitics of the region, and the methods and motivations of western imperialism.
Perhaps even worse, it also precludes any form of genuine solidarity with the uprisings on the part of leftists and "progressives" in the rest of the world, which alone is enough to qualify as despicable.
Mon, 2011-06-20 21:00
#90
So the theory is that after decades of supporting dictatorships in the Middle East, CIA has now decided to provide support to people of the region to topple them?
And your reaction is "Good".
My reaction is "On what planet?"
No credible explanation is offered as to why the CIA and the myriad other instruments of imperialism would suddenly want to have their compliant western-friendly dictatorships in the Middle East toppled like dominoes by popular revolutions.
They were no longer viable stooges. Everyone and their dog knows this is true. The "Middle East" uprisings have been all over the news channels for a few months. This is not conspiracy theory or anything to do with the ubernatural. And that the CIA and their EU friends are not involved by some ubernatural quirk of history is what's not credible. You have no proof that the CIA has taken up boy scouting and Guiding. Let's not laugh very hard over this bit of nonsense either.
William Engdahl explains that US-Israeli relations are at an all-time low since 1948 because of the perceived abandonment of Israel and Israeli-friendly dictatorships in Cairo etc. There was a plan in place since 2003 according to Engdahl and his sources for expansion of a greater "Middle East" toward Russia and China's direction, as racist and imperialist as that migtht sound. Not really, it's just more globalization of the corruption and theft. It's what imperialists do.
Mon, 2011-06-20 21:14
#91
M. Spector
They were no longer viable stooges. Everyone and their dog knows this is true. The "Middle East" uprisings have been all over the news channels for a few months.
Well, which is it? Chicken or egg?
Were the western-friendly Arab dictatorships no longer viable stooges because of the uprisings (as you intimate above), or were the uprisings engineered by the west because the western-friendly Arab dictatorships were no longer viable (as the OP seems to suggest)?
Tue, 2011-06-21 01:30
#92
They were no longer viable stooges. Everyone and their dog knows this is true. The "Middle East" uprisings have been all over the news channels for a few months.
Well, which is it? Chicken or egg?
Were the western-friendly Arab dictatorships no longer viable stooges because of the uprisings (as you intimate above), or were the uprisings engineered by the west because the western-friendly Arab dictatorships were no longer viable (as the OP seems to suggest)?
It depends on which country we're taking about. Regime change in Libya is desirable for the hawks and oil companies, banks etc. And the fomenting of rebellion is apparently not finished with the current countries in chaos. The neocon cabal and London apparently want to destabilize more Muslim countries and deeper into the heart of Asia. The Yanks and Brits have been meddling in Asia long time. There was Chiang Kai-shek in China and Syngman Rhee in Korea - right bloody bastards. There is a list of brutal US-backed dictators who were eventually abandoned by the west when their regimes became too oppressive. And the resulting "democracies" are only slightly better than before and sometimes not. Again it depends on timing and when the people decide on their own that change is needed. And they must be provided or allowed an illusion of democracy where things seem to be freer or at least in the beginning. Ask Russians or "East" Germans if they feel any better off under state capitalism. Ask any Latvian youth who has emigrated to any grass is greener country if things are better under the new liberal capitalism in their birth country.
And then they jockeyed into position in Vietnam by the 1960s. Afghanistan by July 1979. Talibanization of Pakistan and Afghanistan and created a militant Islamic base in Bosnia and Macedonia by the 1990s.
Belarus, Kyrghyzstan, Chechnya, Dagestan, Xinjiang, Tibet etc are longer term projects for the Brits and U.S.
In Egypt, for example, nothing has changed only cosmetic leaders. The US-backed military is still in charge. However, as Engdahl says, the Israelis are upset about all of the destabilization happening in countries surrounding Israel. Mubarak says US-backed Egyptian Military plotted his ouster And he is one who might know.
And most of the CIA's connections in Pakistan's army intelligence have been purged in recent years. A former ISI General has accused the US of perpetrating a false flag operation on 9/11 with the aid of the ISI and British-Pakistani intelligence agents, and some who are now in prison.
"There was a revolution, and then we discovered that those in charge of the revolution are not in the least bit revolutionary"-Egyptian newspaper editor, Ibrahim Issa.*
Meanwhile regime change in Libya is worth NATO and al-CIA'da assistance. They really do want Qadaffi out and to seize the oil fields, or corrupt the new leaders who have probably already worked out a deal. A western style central bank was on the agenda for al-CIA'da and rebels recruited from the military and U.S. Gov't funded Islamic Front for the Salvation of Libya. Foreign funding for overthrow of any government is illegal around the world but apparently not for the CIA who have been doing just that for a long time. This is quite normal for the CIA and nothing out of the ordinary as certain babblers seem to want to suggest.
"What was more important in the world view of history? The Taliban or the fall of the Soviet Empire? A few stirred up Muslims or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the Cold War?"
Brzezinski's infamously racist quote regarding Muslims used by the CIA in their war against secular socialism in Central Asia.
What's more important in the CIA's world view of history? Brzezinski's world view and looking a lot like Halford Mackinder's? Democracy or the expansion of John Foster Dulles' "Middle East" into the heart of Asia and pressing against the borders of their old cold war enemies Russia and China? Do we lefties really need to go over this same old ground in 2011? This is everything they accused the Soviets of pursuing, and lo' and behold it has nothing to do with democracy.
[u]World domination![/u]
Tue, 2011-06-21 07:23
#93
To add more insult to injury, another Babbler has created a thread questioning the foundations of the Arab Spring.
Tue, 2011-06-21 07:27
#94
No credible explanation is offered as to why the CIA and the myriad other instruments of imperialism would suddenly want to have their compliant western-friendly dictatorships in the Middle East toppled like dominoes by popular revolutions. The reason why no such credible explanation has been offered is that [b]there is none[/b].
...
Perhaps even worse, it also precludes any form of genuine solidarity with the uprisings on the part of leftists and "progressives" in the rest of the world, which alone is enough to qualify as despicable.
I think it's time for this argument to go on the offensive. If anyone can demonstrate with considerable evidence that the April 6 Movement, with ample funding and training from ICNC/CANVAS/OTPOR, was NOT instrumental to the Egyptian revolutions, I will adopt that version.
So despite there being a link between April 6 and the CIA fronts, and the evidence that April 6 was instrumental in leading the Egyptian revolutions, you still won't buy it? Isn't it enough to establish that the CIA had its hand in this? Every mass movement needs its set of instigators. If those instigators were trained and funded by the CIA, it casts your whole theory into doubt, regardless of what you might assume of America's methods.
Do you realize how incredibly presumptuous it is to assume you know how the American hegemony operates? Do you realize the stakes? By accepting the official story wholesale, everything else is swept under the rug, the consequence being that we may have just handed these front groups the single largest victory ever by not acknowledging their role.
I am all for revolution and true progressive change. When I see signs of the devil's handiwork (not to be taken as "supernatural") in the details, I give pause.
Tue, 2011-06-21 09:59
#95
M. Spector
... with even more half-baked theories originating from a looney guy named Tarpley who relies on the Alex Jones show for his "information".
[My apologies in advance to all babblers who are looney or who work with looney people.]
Tue, 2011-06-21 10:46
#96
... with even more half-baked theories originating from a looney guy named Tarpley who relies on the Alex Jones show for his "information".
[My apologies in advance to all babblers who are looney or who work with looney people.]
Your apology is meaningless and disingenuous. You have a giant vocabulary with which to expand upon your POV of this person's theories. Using a derogatory term that references people with mental illness is beneath you.
Tue, 2011-06-21 11:23
#97
Catchfire
Closing.