Zizek Documentary!

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2dawall

Well one of the definitions of po-mo provided by Caissa also indictated that po-mo is a rejection of modernity. That seems it essence and what of these nameless scholars who have no info provided here?

Zizek's defenders seem to want to make all definitions so murky that he can avoid any of the indictments he so richly deverves.

By obscure language, I should clarify and say inpenetrable. Lacan's concept of Other/other is meaningless nonsense and many serious writers (if the Guardian's publishing Zizek's work is itself proof of its worth my use of 'serious writers' can be useful too!) such as Chomsky have pointed out that he is charlatan.

I never made the distinction between low culture and high culture; stop playing games. I described commericial culture; a Madonna album is the product of Madonna, her record producer, and the record executive. It is may have lyrics that describe certain scenarios that play out in everday life; it might be an example of something but it is not proof of something.

All of the discourse on this thread only serves to prove that nobody can give a meaningful clear defense of Zizek. You have time to produce lengthy texts of that serve no particular meaning or purpose but you will not give a clear defense of what Zizek's can be quoted to have said about Kosovo. Zizek is a destructive waste of time, a man with no purpose but to entertain himself and exploit the commerical culture tendencies to disquise or lie about reality. Zizek does not further the cause of real change but only serves to distract others from it. That is why he gets featured in an Abercrombie and Fitch catalog and his willingness to participate in such a project only serves to prove what a self-serving clown that so many of his fans want to deny that he is. This is akin to those who want to pretend that Sarah Palin is anything other than an empty political fashion model.

Catchfire wrote:

2dawall wrote:
I see postmodernism as a rejection of modernity including the Enlightenment, a type of discourse that includes contradictory ideas simutaneously,

So far so good, except many scholars see both modernism and postmodernism as continuation of the Enlightenment project, so it's not quite a "rejection." I might call it an extension of the metaphysical crises brought out by modernism. Your point about "contradictory ideas simultaneously," for example, is a seminal modernist concern. F.Scott Fitzgerald, one of modernism's poster boys, once wrote: "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two contradictory ideas in one's head at the same time, and still retain the ability to function."

Quote:
using an obscure language that explains little of nothing (ie Lacan, Derrida)

Have you ever read Hegel or Kant? You don't know from obscure. I don't deny that clarity can be an issue in academic discourse, although I maintain that difficult concepts require difficult language, but these radical philosophers (many of whom are anti-establishment) bear too much of a brunt of these criticisms. Do legislators, lawyers or policy makers receive the same grade and quantity of criticism? Absolutely not. At any rate, the "obscure language" you deride is constant throughout Western philosophy, since Plato.

 

Quote:
and uses commercial references (often referred to as pop culture but that term is misleading) as evidence.

Hrm. Not quite true, although part of postmodernism's departure from high modernism was recognizing the cultural and political content of mass culture. I wouldn't call them using it "as evidence," which sets up a binary between mass culture (evidence) and high culture (non-evidence) which is not present. Rather, postmodernist scholars opened the door to see culture as a continuum--but they are not unique in this. See also Raymond Williams' wonderful essay "Culture is Ordinary."

Quote:
Can anyone tell me after reading the previous link in the quote from below what Zizek's actual position on Kosovo was or is?

I don't have time to read that interview right now, and I'm not sure what I could tell you, since I don't know much about the Kosovo conflict. Cueball, were he still around, could probably speak to that. If you want a better idea of how cultural texts fit into geo-political acts, I'd suggest reading part of his freely accessible How to Read Lacan, which is actually more about Zizek's writings than Lacan's. It contains a nice mixture of his psychoanalysis, philosophy and Marxism, as well as elucidating readings of cultural texts. A very good example of his style.

Quote:
What we are dealing with here is the irreducible gap between the enunciated content and the act of enunciation that is proper to human speech. In academia, a polite way to say that we found our colleague's intervention or talk stupid and boring is to say: "It was interesting." So, if, instead, we tell our colleague openly "It was boring and stupid", he would be fully justified to be surprised and to ask: "But if you found it boring and stupid, why did you not simply say that it was interesting?" The unfortunate colleague was right to take the direct statement as involving something more, not only a comment about the quality of his paper but an attack on his very person.

Does exactly the same not hold for the open admission of torture by the high representatives of the US administration? The popular and seemingly convincing reply to those who worry about the recent US practice of torturing suspected terrorist prisoners is: "What's all the fuss about? The US are now only openly admitting what not only they were doing all the time, but what other states are and were doing all the time - if anything, we have less hypocrisy now!" To this, one should retort with a simple counter-question: "If the high representatives of the US mean only this, why, then, are they telling us this? Why don't they just silently go on doing it, as they did it till now?" So when we hear people like Dick Cheney making obscene statements about the necessity of torture, we should ask them: "If you just want to torture secretly some suspected terrorists, then why are you saying it publicly?" That is to say, the question to be raised it: what is there more in this statement that made the speaker tell it?

The same goes for the negative version of declaration: no less than the superfluous act of mentioning, the act of NOT mentioning or concealing something can create additional meaning. When, in February 2003, Colin Powell addressed the UN assembly in order to advocate the attack on Iraq, the US delegation asked the large reproduction of Picasso's Guernica on the wall behind the speaker's podium to be covered with a different visual ornament. Although the official explanation was that Guernica does not provide the adequate optical background for the televised transmission of Powell's speech, it was clear to everyone what the U.S. delegation was afraid of: that Guernica, the painting supposed to be depicting the catastrophic results of the German aerial bombing of the Spanish city in the civil war, would give rise to the "wrong kind of associations" if it were to serve as the background to Powell advocating the bombing of Iraq by the far superior U.S. air force. This is what Lacan means when he claims that repression and the return of the repressed are one and the same process: if the U.S. delegation had abstained from demanding thatGuernica be covered up, probably no one would associate Powell's speech with the painting displayed behind him - the very change, the very gesture of concealing the painting, drew attention to it and imposed the wrong association, confirming its truth.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

"Meaningless nonsense" is no criticism. What could you possibly mean by that? And Chomsky, who has called Derrida a charlatan, is a linguist scholar who believes that language is present in the brain before birth. His theories have largely been discredited, of course. I wonder why it would be in his interest to undercut another linguist theorist whose work has been much more successful?

Anyway, I can see that your beliefs are well-entrenched, despite your limited will to read postmodernism or Zizek seriously. Sadly, you're not the first such individual I have encountered, and you won't be the last, so I won't lose much sleep over it. I have answered your questions patiently and in good faith and you reward me with the same hackneyed and substance-less accusations you began with. Thanks for the dance, we out.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Catchfire wrote:

And Chomsky, who has called Derrida a charlatan, is a linguist scholar who believes that language is present in the brain before birth. His theories have largely been discredited, of course.

No, they haven't been largely discredited. They have in fact been largely confirmed by modern research in evolutionary psychology and biology by people such as Steven Pinker and E.O. Wilson. Humans' ability to use language is not merely a cultural invention but the product of an evolutionary development that has given us brains that are particularly well adapted for that purpose.  

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

ebodyknows wrote:

Timebandit wrote:

ebodyknows wrote:

 What's most important is the idea, of which I am jealous; to go stick a camera in front of philosophers.

Um, no.  The idea is the important first part.  The execution of that idea then becomes more important.

Sure, but if we look at this as the demo...Her next film has bigger budget camera work, simple but well thought out speech/background pairings and cuts the philosopher down to not 22 but 10 minutes of screen time. Of course you loose the intimacy and any attempt to get a more personal glimpse of the philosopher.

 

No, it is not a demo.  A demo is no more than 10 minutes long, usually the best pieces of what you've got so far and used for the purposes of securing funding for the completed project - this is common for both grant-funded and commercially funded projects.

If this is the same doc as the cut-down version, we call that a rough cut.  As I've already said, it has the feeling of a rough cut (although again, the shooting angles, lighting, etc are very poorly done), but it's being marketed as a feature length documentary.  So no, only someone who was really working at trying to explain away the flaws as not-flaws would look at it as a demo.

I don't think Canada Council got their money's worth on this one (IIRC, I thought I saw CC mentioned on the web site...).

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

M. Spector wrote:
No, they haven't been largely discredited. They have in fact been largely confirmed by modern research in evolutionary psychology and biology by people such as Steven Pinker and E.O. Wilson. Humans' ability to use language is not merely a cultural invention but the product of an evolutionary development that has given us brains that are particularly well adapted for that purpose.

Perhaps an overstatement on my part. Chomsky's lingustic theories obviously still hold a lot of currency; he's giving the keynote at some linguistic conference at M.I.T. this summer, I think. Perhaps I should say they've been effectively challenged--as evidenced by the fact that Chomsky and his disciples like Pinker have kept changing the goalposts: in Cartesian Lingusitics, language was supposed to be embedded in behaviour; when this failed to stand up to scrutiny, it was changed to the brain. Now, with the latest shrine of nativist theories of language, it's supposed to be evolution which explains how language is innate. It's the all the same gambit, of course, with the latest fad doing the heavy lifting.

knownothing knownothing's picture

Chomsky's theories may be proven right some day. We just have no proof right now.

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

Timebandit wrote:

No, it is not a demo.  A demo is no more than 10 minutes long, usually the best pieces of what you've got so far and used for the purposes of securing funding for the completed project - this is common for both grant-funded and commercially funded projects.

Okay, call it something else. Whatever we want to label the thing it obviously informed the production of the subsequent philosophy documentary. Having seen 'examined life' first I was happy to go deeper with zizek. I like others in this thread wasn't bothered by any of the technical aspects.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

I'll call it what IMDB calls it:  A feature length documentary.  Incidentally, that's what the filmmaker calls it as well.  It's not about what I would "label" it - as I've pointed out, the filmmaker already has - or whether it informed a later work.  As it stands, on its own, it's not a high-quality production.  I've juried grant competitions and been involved in curating screenings and festival events - this wouldn't make the cut. 

Two other posters did comment that it was not a very watchable film.  They may not have been specific, but the story editing, editing and shooting are aspects that make the film much more confused.  So I don't think I am entirely alone in my criticism.

2dawall

"We out"; wow you are like RDP, claiming when the argument is over.  Can you actually explain Lacan's Other concept in basic terms accessible to all? Can anyone? It was actually Lacan that Chomsky called a "charlatan" and he was dead on.

"Limited will to read postmodernism?" We have no choice; it is constantly thrust upon us no matter how often it is has been exposed as a charade (ie Alan Sokal's hoax on Stanley Aronowitz, the many drubbings Michael Albert had given Stanley Fisher in Z Papers, both in the early 90's). Unfortunately the Against The Current website does not draw up achives articles very well because sometime around 94 or 95 it had an excellent book review/article on the Cold War implications on how postmodermism developed. Maybe someone else can find it.

 Po-mo is one of those social trends that is extremely useful to the elites in trailing people off in a variety of pointless directions. Those on the Left who promote po-mo do so at great harm to general debate. Now more than ever we need clear, cogent arguments provided to a larger audience that seeks real understanding. Professor Richard Wolff's recents comments on his ability to talk to US small c-conservatives would be a possible example of that as was the documentary he had out two years ago that accompanied his book Capitalism Hits The Fan.

http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/prospects-for-the-u-s-left-not-bad-at-all

  So my not accepting your arguments as correct are merely the measure of how 'entrenched' are my beliefs; I would offer that you need to provide a better argument, one that is very clear and understandable.

You never gave a defence of Zizek's lecture on Kosovo where he seems to what to have two opposing positions at once. That goes to my question as to whether it can be simutaneously raining and not raining. Right now it Winnipeg it is again on the verge of possibly raining.

Catchfire wrote:

"Meaningless nonsense" is no criticism. What could you possibly mean by that? And Chomsky, who has called Derrida a charlatan, is a linguist scholar who believes that language is present in the brain before birth. His theories have largely been discredited, of course. I wonder why it would be in his interest to undercut another linguist theorist whose work has been much more successful?

Anyway, I can see that your beliefs are well-entrenched, despite your limited will to read postmodernism or Zizek seriously. Sadly, you're not the first such individual I have encountered, and you won't be the last, so I won't lose much sleep over it. I have answered your questions patiently and in good faith and you reward me with the same hackneyed and substance-less accusations you began with. Thanks for the dance, we out.

Papal Bull

knownothing wrote:

Chomsky's theories may be proven right some day. We just have no proof right now.

 

Like Big Foot?

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Zizek on Lacan's Other:

Quote:
For Lacan, the reality of human beings is constituted by three mutually entangled levels: the Symbolic, the Imaginary, and the Real. This triad can be nicely illustrated by the game of chess. The rules one has to follow in order to play it are its symbolic dimension: from the purely formal symbolic standpoint, "knight" is defined only by the moves this figure can make. This level is clearly different from the imaginary one, namely the way different pieces are shaped and characterized by their names (king, queen, knight), and it is easy to envision a game with the same rules, but with a different imaginary, in which this figure would be called "messenger" or "runner" or whatever. Finally, real is the entire complex set of contingent circumstances which affect the course of the game: the intelligence of the players, the unpredictable intrusions that may disconcert one of the players or directly cut the game short.

The big Other operates at a symbolic level. What, then, is this symbolic order composed of? When we speak (or listen, for that matter), we never merely interact with others; our speech activity is grounded on our accepting of and relying on a complex network of rules and other kinds of presuppositions. First, there are the grammatical rules I have to master blindly and spontaneously: if I were to bear in mind all the time these rules, my speech would come to a halt. Then there is the background of participating in the same life-world which enables me and my partner in conversation to understand each other. The rules that I follow are marked by a deep split: there are rules (and meanings) that I follow blindly, out of custom, but of which, upon reflection, I can become at least partially aware (such as common grammatical rules), and there are rules that I follow, meanings that haunt me, unbeknownst to me (such as unconscious prohibitions). Then there are rules and meanings I am aware of, but have to act on the outside as if I am not aware of them - dirty or obscene innuendos which one passes over in silence in order to maintain the proper appearances.

This symbolic space acts like a standard against which I can measure myself. This is why the big Other can be personified or reified in a single agent: "God" who watches over me from beyond and over all real individuals or the Cause which addresses me (Freedom, Communism, Nation) and for which I am ready to give my life. While talking, I am never merely a "small other" (individual) interacting with other "small others," the big Other always has to be there. This inherent reference to the Other is the topic of a low class joke about a poor peasant who, after enduring a shipwreck, finds himself on a lone island with Cindy Crawford. After having sex with her, she asks him if he is fully satisfied; his answer is yes, but nonetheless he still has a small request to make his satisfaction complete - could she dress herself up as his best friend, put on trousers and paint a moustache on her face? He reassures her that he is not a hidden pervert, as she will immediately see if she carries out the request. When she does, he approaches her, elbows her ribs and tells her with the obscene smile of male complicity: "You know what happened to me? I just had sex with Cindy Crawford!" This Third, which is always present as the witness, belies the possibility of an unspoiled innocent private pleasure. Sex is always minimally exhibitionist and relies on another's gaze.

knownothing knownothing's picture

Papal Bull wrote:

knownothing wrote:

Chomsky's theories may be proven right some day. We just have no proof right now.

 

Like Big Foot?

No like round-earth

2dawall

How does this joke explain anything? Moreover, the prior paragraphs remind me more of Hume than Lacan although neither is readily available to me at this point. I am sorry but this does not explain Lacan but seems to illustrate Zizek's confusing one for the other.

Catchfire wrote:

Zizek on Lacan's Other:

Quote:
... This inherent reference to the Other is the topic of a low class joke about a poor peasant who, after enduring a shipwreck, finds himself on a lone island with Cindy Crawford. After having sex with her, she asks him if he is fully satisfied; his answer is yes, but nonetheless he still has a small request to make his satisfaction complete - could she dress herself up as his best friend, put on trousers and paint a moustache on her face? He reassures her that he is not a hidden pervert, as she will immediately see if she carries out the request. When she does, he approaches her, elbows her ribs and tells her with the obscene smile of male complicity: "You know what happened to me? I just had sex with Cindy Crawford!" This Third, which is always present as the witness, belies the possibility of an unspoiled innocent private pleasure. Sex is always minimally exhibitionist and relies on another's gaze.

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

This joke quote doesn't make sense to me. Plenty of people who have intimate moments with someone they care a great deal about know that some of those moments are secret and shared only by the participants. People cherish such things, and keep them, quiet, in their hearts for their entire lives. They are waypoints (to use a pilot's term) in life. I am talking about those moments you remember forever.

What I mean by this is that there is no need for the gaze of another or a third party - or the imagination of such a gaze - for such experiences and memories to be complete.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Well, we have to remember that it's a) a joke and b) illustrative. Having sex with Cindy Crawford is not what I would call an "intimate moment." It's a crass emblem of heterosexual masculine desire. The underlying point is not that we literally declare our desires or have them publicly affirmed--for the most part, our desires are cryptic to us. Zizek's (and Lacan's) point is that our desires our socially determined--or at least determined by a larger symbolic order into which we are born. Another example is the Mennonite rumspringa, which is famous for letting adolescents raised under the strict Mennonite prohibitions the opportunity to indulge in all manner of social deprivation and decadence. The infamous moral of this tale is that some absurdly high percentage of Menonites (90+%) return to embrace the prohibitive Mennonite lifestyle. What a Lacanian would take from this is not that a religious life is ultimately more attractive and fulfilling, but that we have the desires we are taught to have--so of course excessive partying and drug use would not appeal to a Mennonite. Their worldview has no place for such desires.

This doesn't devalue our desires and their fulfillment as waypoints and so on, it simply points out how we come to have them, and how they in turn colonize and define us.

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

In social life we sometimes have very disturbing and bigoted views justified by reference to "It's a joke". Anyone on the political left with a brain in their head knows ALL ABOUT this phenomenon. It's how people sometimes justify racism, misogyny and all the rest of the spiritual "benefits" of our current "civilization" when we have a "gotcha" moment with them. Instead of learning from a mistake nothing changes. Gah.

So, apparently I can jettison the claims expressed by: 

"This Third, which is always present as the witness, belies the possibility of an unspoiled innocent private pleasure. Sex is always minimally exhibitionist and relies on another's gaze."

... since it's not serious anyway, isn't useful when it comes to private and intimate moments that are important to me, and so on. It's blather.

How am I doing here? And if this is fair on my part, why would I bother to waste my time with this stuff?

 

 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

But the fact that a joke illustrates the point in no way dismisses it, so I don't understand your analogy. Moreover, jokes enjoy a special position in psychoanalysis: Freud, in his excellent The Joke and its Relation to the Unconscious (1905), contends that a joke represents a point of rupture between what is expressed and what one desires. It's actually an opportunity to expose what is repressed or what society attempts to prohibit: a very valuable moment in psychoanalysis. This is a large reason why ironic racism is not allowed on babble--it exposes privilege in the utterance. Zizek uses a lot of jokes for precisely this reason, I think. If anything, jokes are ironically when psychoanalysis is at its most serious.

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

I'm not buying that. Jokes or humour are more than simply the exposure of what is repressed. They expose the contradictions that are inherent in life itself and have a spiritual component that you're glossing over. They nourish us. Yuri Borev refers to laughter as something that "mocks the imperfections of the world and purifies the joy of living" etc. I agree with Borev.

I don't see that in your explanation.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

I think Zizek would agree with Borev too. Marx is good at exposing the contradictions of capitalism; Freud is good at exposing how we manage to live with them. Zizek would scoff at ideologically loaded words like "spiritual" and "purify," of course, but in the main, your position is not far from his.

There is a stigma attached to agreeing with anything psychoanalysis has to say, but there needn't be.

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

lol. OK. Good point.

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

N.Beltov wrote:

This joke quote doesn't make sense to me. Plenty of people who have intimate moments with someone they care a great deal about know that some of those moments are secret and shared only by the participants. People cherish such things, and keep them, quiet, in their hearts for their entire lives. They are waypoints (to use a pilot's term) in life. I am talking about those moments you remember forever.

What I mean by this is that there is no need for the gaze of another or a third party - or the imagination of such a gaze - for such experiences and memories to be complete.

There might not be a need, but yet we have this film. A person with a camera has elbowed us and said look here is Zizek lying in bed at night, these are the toys his kids play with, picking out films in a movie shop, dealing with people in a city park, showing you around his apartment.

Papal Bull

knownothing wrote:

Papal Bull wrote:

knownothing wrote:

Chomsky's theories may be proven right some day. We just have no proof right now.

 

Like Big Foot?

No like round-earth

 

Oh, boring.

2dawall

No clear analysis of how 'climategate' was a fraud which is what is needed now, not meaningless po-mo crap.

ebodyknows wrote:

N.Beltov wrote:

This joke quote doesn't make sense to me. Plenty of people who have intimate moments with someone they care a great deal about know that some of those moments are secret and shared only by the participants. People cherish such things, and keep them, quiet, in their hearts for their entire lives. They are waypoints (to use a pilot's term) in life. I am talking about those moments you remember forever.

What I mean by this is that there is no need for the gaze of another or a third party - or the imagination of such a gaze - for such experiences and memories to be complete.

There might not be a need, but yet we have this film. A person with a camera has elbowed us and said look here is Zizek lying in bed at night, these are the toys his kids play with, picking out films in a movie shop, dealing with people in a city park, showing you around his apartment.

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

2dawall wrote:

No clear analysis of how 'climategate' was a fraud which is what is needed now, not meaningless po-mo crap.

ebodyknows wrote:

 

There might not be a need, but yet we have this film. A person with a camera has elbowed us and said look here is Zizek lying in bed at night, these are the toys his kids play with, picking out films in a movie shop, dealing with people in a city park, showing you around his apartment.

But what would I do with such an analysis? and once I've heard it would I still go to sleep at night? Play with my kids? Go rent a movie?

I found zizek fun to watch and he has nice ideas, but I didn't gain much respect for him as a person. I think it's a rather humbling portrait. We should ask as much from all our larger than life public personalities.

 

2dawall

Well that is the type of analysis is needed; so Zizek is there to 'entertain' us, to distract us from doing anything? Is that your admission? If so, why show up here?

ebodyknows wrote:

But what would I do with such an analysis? and once I've heard it would I still go to sleep at night? Play with my kids? Go rent a movie?

I found zizek fun to watch and he has nice ideas, but I didn't gain much respect for him as a person. I think it's a rather humbling portrait. We should ask as much from all our larger than life public personalities.

 

knownothing knownothing's picture
knownothing knownothing's picture

I would love to see your imaginary land

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

2dawall wrote:

Well that is the type of analysis is needed; so Zizek is there to 'entertain' us, to distract us from doing anything? Is that your admission? If so, why show up here?

That's not my admission. I'm not really sure what he had in mind when he agreed to be in the film. I think the film maker made an attempt to humanize him. I think idealized superheros contribute to the problems of the world.

I don't think we need more analysis of climate change. I think the majority of the worlds population realizes we're fucking with nature and we are experiencing serious implications as a result.

This is the culture forum. I'm here because it's part of our culture to understand all the problems of the world, and enjoy babbling about them. "condemned by doubt, immobile and timid, I, like my culture am an indecisive dreamer. I speak to however will listen about my imaginary land with a heart totally dizzy and gnawed my fear." I'd like to move beyond that. I know not how, but I'm certain gloomy boring analysis alone is not going to do it.

2dawall

A majority of the world's population perhaps but not of the nations that are stalling on climate change actions.

I said analysis of 'climategate', the phony controversey created by the fossil fuel puppets to further cloud and further seed the clouds of doubt, furthering the stalling. Zizek helps Big Fossil, not us.

ebodyknows wrote:

2dawall wrote:

Well that is the type of analysis is needed; so Zizek is there to 'entertain' us, to distract us from doing anything? Is that your admission? If so, why show up here?

That's not my admission. I'm not really sure what he had in mind when he agreed to be in the film. I think the film maker made an attempt to humanize him. I think idealized superheros contribute to the problems of the world.

I don't think we need more analysis of climate change. I think the majority of the worlds population realizes we're fucking with nature and we are experiencing serious implications as a result.

This is the culture forum. I'm here because it's part of our culture to understand all the problems of the world, and enjoy babbling about them. "condemned by doubt, immobile and timid, I, like my culture am an indecisive dreamer. I speak to however will listen about my imaginary land with a heart totally dizzy and gnawed my fear." I'd like to move beyond that. I know not how, but I'm certain gloomy boring analysis alone is not going to do it.

2dawall
N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

There are rather many Zizec links on this thread so I may simply be putting up the same link again here. Let's assume I'm not.

 

Zizec: What does it mean to be a revolutionary today? Marxism 2009 Conference.

 

There's a quote here that's interesting. Zizec connects it with a "joke" again. It's a new variation of Marx's 11th Thesis on Feuerbach.

Slavoj Zizec wrote:
Critical leftists have hitherto only dirtied with dust the balls of those in power, the point is to cut them off.

I suppose one has to hear the joke to contextualize the remark. I would mention in that regard that here Zizec is drawing attention to a phenomenon of leftist intellectuals that he would like to see changed; he wants such intellectuals to stop "fooling themselves" that they are accomplishing something significant, or being "really" subversive (to the existing order), etc., etc, when they are only ... "dirtying with dust the balls of those in power".

Not bad, methinks.

 

2dawall

Which intellectuals? I have attempted to find a transcript for this speech because listening to him is like listening to sharp nails scratching across a billboard continuously without end. As I listen to the fourth quarter of this video, he does not name any particular intellectual at least a current one. How is Zizek accomplishing anything beyond entertaining fellow po-mo's. His Defense of Lost Causes reads like a long one-note, one-joke written by Mike Myers to ridicule the foolishness of depthless academics.

This is more proof of at best, his worthlessness, or worse, a painful distraction of the road we need to actually follow.

Is Chomsky only asking for reform? Is Vidal?  Which reformist intellectuals is he supposedly attacking?

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

I rather thought you would have more sympathy with someone, whatever other views you might disagree with, who made an effort to expose the sort of useless talk and mock subversiveness that passes for radical thought in academia (and elsewhere)... even if only by the use of a vulgar metaphor.

I really don't know anyone who does what he does quite so well. I mean provoking the listener to re-examine their cherished values, ideas and beliefs. At least for those on the Marxist left.

A young Karl Marx was able to look at the ultra conservative doctrine of Georg Hegel and, along with like-minded intellectuals like Fred Engels, draw out the useful parts or what Marx called "the rational kernel" , etc.

I don't see why the same can't be done by modern day Marxists looking at other writers.

Anyway, it seems pointless to argue about it as I would hate to impose a reminder of fingernails on a billboard/chalkboard for you.

2dawall

He is unclear, he jumps here and there, he is incoherent. He is not explaining anything, he is not adding anything to any discussion, he trails off and only misleads others. He is worse than useless, he is destructive to progress, he does not illuminate anything, he only distracts us from the discussions we really need to follow. The crisis of our time is oil and he does nothing to put that to the forefront.

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

2dawall wrote:

The crisis of our time is oil and he does nothing to put that to the forefront.

To talk about the oil crisis as if everyone doesn't already know about it and feel guilty would probably be the best joke he could make.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

New York Post fooled by Lady Gaga, Slavoj Zizek hoax

Quote:
Man, Slavoj Zizek is really getting around these days! Just last week we heard about Julian Assange auctioning a lunch and panel with himself and Zizek on eBay in an attempt to fund WikiLeaks (the first ticket went for 3,700 euros, FYI). On Monday the Slovenian professor was outed in the New York Post for spending quality time with Lady Gaga:

 

Quote:
In a recent blog post titled "Communism Knows No Monster," Zizek called Gaga "my good friend" and said, "There is a certain performance of theory in her costumes, videos and even (some of) her music." He says her infamous meat dress is a reference to "the consistent linking in the oppressive imaginary of the patriarchy of the female body and meat, of animality and the feminine."

 

According to the story, the two were also spotted by various sources discussing feminism and collective human creativity, with the "Born This Way" singer promising to support Zizek's rally last March when the lecturers' union went on strike in London.

The only problem? At least half this story was totally fabricated. 

 

2dawall

Well that is just it; how does he exposes useless talk? He himself sounds useless, he cannot make a consistent point. If he could actually make a clear example of what is referenced as useless talk that might help but that would require a level of concentration that is either beyond him or not useful to him gimmick. I suspect he is a fraud just like his hero, Lacan. We can do better than him and we need better than him. Seriously, if some first year university student or someone who is otherwise a novice to radical politics, and came here only to discover him first before anyone else, that would be very destructive to real progress.

I am not totally satisfied with Tariq Ali or Michael Parenti but I would feel much better if they were more prominent. Either of the two can be better understood and have made better indictments of various aspects of our political culture. The reason why so many of us prefer Chomsky is that he has addressed so many topics with the same approach and is consistently clear.

N.Beltov wrote:

I rather thought you would have more sympathy with someone, whatever other views you might disagree with, who made an effort to expose the sort of useless talk and mock subversiveness that passes for radical thought in academia (and elsewhere)... even if only by the use of a vulgar metaphor.

I really don't know anyone who does what he does quite so well. I mean provoking the listener to re-examine their cherished values, ideas and beliefs. At least for those on the Marxist left.

A young Karl Marx was able to look at the ultra conservative doctrine of Georg Hegel and, along with like-minded intellectuals like Fred Engels, draw out the useful parts or what Marx called "the rational kernel" , etc.

I don't see why the same can't be done by modern day Marxists looking at other writers.

Anyway, it seems pointless to argue about it as I would hate to impose a reminder of fingernails on a billboard/chalkboard for you.

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

Zizek is appearing on Amy Goodman's "Democracy Now" on Saturday with Julian Assange of WikiLeaks. I guess you'll be skipping that, eh?

2dawall

If I can get access to a computer that day I will send an e-mail of protest. Horrendous giving him such push when he is so utterly destructive to what we need. Doubtlessly, she will not attempt to ask almighty Zizek to sum it up in 10 seconds; that would be intolerable for this new God of the po-mo Left.

N.Beltov wrote:

Zizek is appearing on Amy Goodman's "Democracy Now" on Saturday with Julian Assange of WikiLeaks. I guess you'll be skipping that, eh?

2dawall

Sorry, but there is not only not anything remotely like "everybody knows" but there is no "everybody." Although I am not fully satisfied with the analyses of The Trouble With Kansas, Bowling Alone, The Big Sort, etc those books do point to the more general problem of how utterly segmented the North American population is currently with so many at the bottom of a deep, nearly impenetrable silo.  Twenty-five years ago, in my rural hometown in southern Manitoba, the anti-semite of the town was openly derided as a crazy, possessed man. Now, he has much cache and many people are listening to him, even my own parents.

Few people, if any, fully understand the dimensions of how bad oil is. They might know something about climate chaos {but unlikely not is full depths of widths} but will they understand its full dimensions much less any of the other issues related to oil (ie its role in depletion of the acquifer in the drilling process)? As of yet, I still have not yet found any website that really discusses clearly, forthrightly the fully demonic dimension of every crises in which oil plays a hand.

Part of this goes to the penchant for the North American Left to divert itself into destructive directions as positing Zizek as a leader or a spokesperson for anything at all. Zizek is worse than worthless, he is destructive to a real serious discussion about anything be it the growing racism in Europe or climate chaos and the particulars of why capital refuses to/cannot go green. Zizek is the worst part of a political-social swamp, a Peter-Pan-pied-piper who will only lead us further astray. I hate him with a rage beyond belief.

ebodyknows wrote:

2dawall wrote:

The crisis of our time is oil and he does nothing to put that to the forefront.

To talk about the oil crisis as if everyone doesn't already know about it and feel guilty would probably be the best joke he could make.

2dawall

It is not enough to say the 'some intellecuals' are not cutting the mustard in organizing. If he was as relevant as so many here would want to invent that he is, he would be openly calling for an international general strike. That is what we need right now!

Two people on Canadian Dimension talking about a Canadian national general strike is not enough. We need a general strike around the world. Greece, Portugal, and Spain are heating up right now; lets make it worldwide.

http://canadiandimension.com/articles/4027/

Why would Zizek not get involved? Oh yeah, he is probably too busy writing up copy for the next Abercrombie & Fitch/Fetch catalog.

2dawall

It is not enough to say the 'some intellecuals' are not cutting the mustard in organizing. If he was as relevant as so many here would want to invent that he is, he would be openly calling for an international general strike. That is what we need right now!

Two people on Canadian Dimension talking about a Canadian national general strike is not enough. We need a general strike around the world. Greece, Portugal, and Spain are heating up right now; lets make it worldwide.

http://canadiandimension.com/articles/4027/

Why would Zizek not get involved? Oh yeah, he is probably too busy writing up copy for the next Abercrombie & Fitch/Fetch catalog.

2dawall

Here is somone who is relevant and understandable; Christian Parenti.

 

http://www.nationbooks.org/book/234/Tropic%20of%20Chaos

Oddly enough the blurb does not mention that he has also written for Z Magazine, probably where he first became prominent.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Thanks for that ebodyknows. Very enjoyable.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

I'm really feeling a sapping of my vital bodily fluids. Too much flouride in my toothpaste? Perhaps I shouldn't swallow. lol.

ebodyknows ebodyknows's picture

2dawall wrote:

Few people, if any, fully understand the dimensions of how bad oil is. They might know something about climate chaos {but unlikely not is full depths of widths} but will they understand its full dimensions much less any of the other issues related to oil (ie its role in depletion of the acquifer in the drilling process)? As of yet, I still have not yet found any website that really discusses clearly, forthrightly the fully demonic dimension of every crises in which oil plays a hand.

F93k I'm depressed. Somebody get me some Genetically modified fried chicken, fifa on a big screen tv, strippers, and a couple of iphones to disctract me from all this. Call me a taxi to bring me back to home. Crank the AC, the mild summer we're having reminds me of global warming, let's have a zipless f##k. I love the smell of air blowing throught the vents, It reminds me of my mother...Damn, I'm stressed out. Let's go to vegas baby. Bring the glitz and bling, give 'em our money, there's an ice age coming anyway. let's be firecrackers. I ain't spending the last day of the world listening to any more self-righteous diatribes online. I ain't going out in a pedantic drivel..let's go out with a bang. What could be more fun?

"Although none of the rules for becoming more alive is valid, it is healthy to keep on formulating them."

"Any important disease whose causality is murky, and for which treatment is ineffectual, tends to be awash in significance."

"Anything in history or nature that can be described as changing steadily can be seen as heading toward catastrophe."

"Authoritarian political ideologies have a vested interest in promoting fear, a sense of the imminence of takeover by aliens and real diseases are useful material."
Susan Sontag

 

2dawall

Really? This is in response to what I have posted? Just another self-indictment from the po-mo crowd.

ebodyknows wrote:

2dawall wrote:

Few people, if any, fully understand the dimensions of how bad oil is. They might know something about climate chaos {but unlikely not is full depths of widths} but will they understand its full dimensions much less any of the other issues related to oil (ie its role in depletion of the acquifer in the drilling process)? As of yet, I still have not yet found any website that really discusses clearly, forthrightly the fully demonic dimension of every crises in which oil plays a hand.

F93k I'm depressed. Somebody get me some Genetically modified fried chicken, fifa on a big screen tv, strippers, and a couple of iphones to disctract me from all this. Call me a taxi to bring me back to home. Crank the AC, the mild summer we're having reminds me of global warming, let's have a zipless f##k. I love the smell of air blowing throught the vents, It reminds me of my mother...Damn, I'm stressed out. Let's go to vegas baby. Bring the glitz and bling, give 'em our money, there's an ice age coming anyway. let's be firecrackers. I ain't spending the last day of the world listening to any more self-righteous diatribes online. I ain't going out in a pedantic drivel..let's go out with a bang. What could be more fun?

"Although none of the rules for becoming more alive is valid, it is healthy to keep on formulating them."

"Any important disease whose causality is murky, and for which treatment is ineffectual, tends to be awash in significance."

"Anything in history or nature that can be described as changing steadily can be seen as heading toward catastrophe."

"Authoritarian political ideologies have a vested interest in promoting fear, a sense of the imminence of takeover by aliens and real diseases are useful material."
Susan Sontag

 

2dawall

That is the problem with defenders of Zizek is they want to play this juvenile game of being on both sides without taking any responsibility - "oh he is really saying something important" to "oh he is just a clown so there is nothing wrong." Pretty much the defense of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh.

Either you can come up with a real defense of Zizek or you cannot. Thus far, you cannot. Poetry and parlour games diversions, notwithstanding.

Merowe

2dawall, I think you are being gently teased. Your #90 has a bit of the earnestness of ONE WHO HAS JUST READ UP ON PEAK OIL about it - which may or may not be the case. Likewise, I wonder why you're bothering to grind your anti-po-mo axe here, I don't think you'll find much argument.

 

 

2dawall

Actually I was referring to a whole slew of things but not necessarily peak oil; oil drilling still depleats the acquifer of locations regardless of how much oil is left. And can you speak for ebodyknows or can even ebodyknows speak for ebodyknows?

No, the frustration lies with the constant refrain of that cliche "everybody knows" which is as destructive as it is meaningless.

No, I read about Hubbard's peak quite awhile ago. The issue of oil itself goes well beyond that, well below that, and well above that.

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