What's your source there Ikosmos? Geez, I guess that means capitalism is to blame, AND that it proves Jesus was a Muslim, right?
Oslo Explosion
Sat, 2011-07-23 14:45
#102
Sat, 2011-07-23 14:48
#103
ikosmos
The Labour leader, having correctly emphasized that this was an attack against the Labour Movement, then went on to say that the matter should be left in the hands of the police. This is a mistake. The state cannot be relied upon to provide effective defence against the fascists. The state intelligence services have ignored the activities of fascist groups, and a section of the state always has fascist sympathies. Blind belief in the efficacy of the state to protest us can lull us into a false sense of security with fatal results. Let us remember that this assassin was able to commit mass murder because he was dressed as a policeman.The attack has unleashed an atmosphere of fear that needs to be fought. The Socialist Youth (SU) were forced to cancel their summer camp which was due to take place next week, on the very same island.
Sat, 2011-07-23 16:00
#104
I don't see how "derangement" in any way dislodges any political motivations which might or might not animate to some degree an individual's murderous acts.
I obviously didn't make my point clearly. What I'm saying is that I think that when an individual commits an individual act of murder or mayhem or whatever, her or his motives may be of interest when they are at trial. But why is there a mania (I repeat the word) to find, not only so-called "political" motives (which I think is a degradation and misuse of the word "political" in most cases), but a political trend, even a political organization, which must be behind the act?
You then go on to say:Let me share a few examples. Lee Harvey Oswald. Sirhan Sirhan. James Earl Ray. Squeaky Fromme (wannabe). Mark David Chapman. Timothy McVeigh. Kimveer Gill. Valery Fabrikant. Etc. etc.All these are products of deranged imperialist and racist societies which dehumanize and assault and marginalize and kill people daily, while suppressing popular dissent and struggle.
Again, not understanding where you're going here. Are you suggesting that the Concordia academic community, to take one example from your list, is responsible for Fabrikant's murderous spree?
Good lord, no. Forget Fabrikant - it's actually a poor example I shouldn't have used, an unfortunate afterthought. In all the other cases, what relevance is the "political motive" that any of the assassins may have had? Does anyone think that any of those were "political" acts, in any meaningful sense? The quest for "political" motives, for organizations that planned the acts, for co-conspirators, etc., is a diversion and distraction from the real problem and the real criminals. I'm not trying to "excuse" any of these acts because they were bred by the ills of our society (which they most obviously were). I'm trying to suggest we should not elevate the nature of the crime just because of the extent of its horror. That's what's being done here, by almost everyone.
Sat, 2011-07-23 16:00
#105
Re: Tommy's Guardian article, I find it interesting that the police officer has decided that this guy is not linked to "international terrorism" because he's not a Muslim extremist.
Well, I would think the reason he's not considered part of "international terrorism" is because he's from Norway and attacked his own country. Just like Timothy McVeigh is certainly a terrorist, though not of the international variety.
Sat, 2011-07-23 16:07
#106
I agree - this guy is not "crazy" (unless you take the view that ANYONE who kills is crazy) - he is a rightwing extremist with strong political views. Instead of trying to dismiss him as a nut - we should wake up to the threat that these rightwing xenophobic extremists pose to society. They should be taken very seriously.
And devout Muslims? Any threat there? I see where this is going.
Sat, 2011-07-23 16:24
#107
Of course grand inquisitor Unionist once again flagrantly violates Babble policy with complete impunity. He's got it bad for DiNovo, but the fact remains that yesterday it was widely reported that a group calling itself Helpers of the Global Jihad had claimed responsibility for yesterday's bomb in Oslo. And yes it appears that today Helpers of the Global Jihad have retracted their claims. I was watching coverage on CBC and Evan Solomon was also reporting that the NY Times had broken that story.
Not so, and stop attacking Unionist on a personal level. Disagree if you must, but put a leash on the name-calling.
The CBC ... Evan Solomon ... the NY Times. Does anyone consider these credible sources for news?
Sat, 2011-07-23 16:28
#108
I've been an athiest since I was ten years old. I see all religions as a threat to liberty. Anyone who chooses to believe there's a magic formula that, one day, poof! will end human struggle, jealousy and tragedy is an ignoramus.
And in that I'd include devout objectivists and Leninists
Sat, 2011-07-23 16:29
#109
I agree - this guy is not "crazy" (unless you take the view that ANYONE who kills is crazy) - he is a rightwing extremist with strong political views. Instead of trying to dismiss him as a nut - we should wake up to the threat that these rightwing xenophobic extremists pose to society. They should be taken very seriously.
And devout Muslims? Any threat there? I see where this is going.
I don't give a damn how often someone prays and whether or not they should be classified as "devout". How often did IRA gunmen attend Mass? Does anyone care?
Sat, 2011-07-23 16:32
#110
Sven
The Lord's Resistance Army has been terrorizing Africans for more than 20 years. Their version of Christianity makes the Inquisition look like a lingerie party. They rape, murder, kidnap children to use as sex slaves and child soldiers, etc. There is no horror you can imagine (and many many that you cannot) that this terrorist group hasn't visited upon innocent civilians.
That is an excellent example of what I would classify as "terrorism".
Sat, 2011-07-23 16:53
#111
Reading this profile of the killer, I couldn't help but think that his beliefs sound almost identical to what rightwing bloggers like Ezra Levant or Mark Steyn or Michael Coren spout all the time in Canada. Maybe CSIS should put all those people under surveillance before they decide to murder a bunch of young New Democrats.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/23/anders-behring-breivik-norwa...
"What has emerged so far paints a disturbing picture: a Christian fundamentalist with a deep hatred of multiculturalism, of the left and of Muslims, who had written disparagingly of prominent Norwegian politicians."
"Another significant event was being baptised into the Protestant church of "his own free will" at the age of 15. More recently, however, he had expressed his disgust at his own church. "Today's Protestant church is a joke," he wrote in an online post in 2009. "Priests in jeans who march for Palestine and churches that look like minimalist shopping centres. I am a supporter of an indirect collective conversion of the Protestant church back to the Catholic."
Sat, 2011-07-23 17:05
#112
The Lord's Resistance Army has been terrorizing Africans for more than 20 years. Their version of Christianity makes the Inquisition look like a lingerie party. They rape, murder, kidnap children to use as sex slaves and child soldiers, etc. There is no horror you can imagine (and many many that you cannot) that this terrorist group hasn't visited upon innocent civilians.
That is an excellent example of what I would classify as "terrorism".
It is. Religion notwithstanding, it is fanaticism that drives such movements. All major religions have done this, over the past few thousand years. It seems to me that a movement - be it Nazism, Christian fundamentalism, extreme right-wing Judaism, or whatever - that espouses extreme ideals will at some point act on them.
Our response is our reason. We cannot sink to knee-jerk reactions when our basic reasoning can find solutions. We need to critique our own thoughts and ideas as much as we do those who we feel oppose us, and move forward from there.
Sat, 2011-07-23 17:14
#113
It also now seems that this guy may have had links to rightwing xenophobic movements in other countries as well - including the UK and he was apparently an admirer of Geert Wilders the neo-fascist Dutch politician. He apparently also wrote about wanting to create a Norwegian version of the "Tea Party". If any good come of this, hopefully this event will lead to a backlash against these neo-nazi parties and movements in Europe that have done so much to spawn hateful people like this guy.
Sat, 2011-07-23 17:23
#114
Okay, too long and going to open a new thread.
Sat, 2011-07-23 17:23
#115
It also now seems that this guy may have had links to rightwing xenophobic movements in other countries as well - including the UK and he was apparently an admirer of Geert Wilders the neo-fascist Dutch politician. He apparently also wrote about wanting to create a Norwegian version of the "Tea Party". If any good come of this, hopefully this event will lead to a backlash against these neo-nazi parties and movements in Europe that have done so much to spawn hateful people like this guy.
Source, Stockholm.
First question for me is if he actually had collaborators and other planners behind him in this specific act. Second is to what degree he might have been deranged or not.
But if this is simply a case of him being facebook friends with or fans of some of these groups it doesn't say much.
Pages
- « first
- ‹ previous
- 1
- 2
- 3